What is true Napoletana Pizza? What defines it?

[tinroofrusted]

I would definitely eat that (wu's pictured pizza above).  It looks really delicious.  

Tin Roof

[Jackie Tran]

Some good discussion going on.  Thank you all.  

Norma - I think the Manitoba flour that Paul sent us is the Marriage Miller's Manitoba flour and not the Stagioni Manitoba flour that Andre is talking about.  If I am mistaken, please correct me.  Either way, your post pretty much confirmed some of the ideas I had about Naples pizza.  

THANK YOU for posting Caleb's blog spot on his trip to Italy for pizza.  That is exactly the kind of examples and descriptions I was looking for.  No doubt his preferences are unique, but from the little I just read it sounds like he is as passionate about real pizza as any obsessive.  I am looking forward to following his blogspot and posts on slice.  I will contact him and hopefully he has some time to chat.  I think I will even try to make time to visit his restaurant once it opens.  

Caleb said it so well.....
Neapolitan pizza is best summarized by the short description, "Fresh ingredients on good bread." Its really a simple concept. Yet, because of the focus on the basics, the room for perceived error is small.

Wu - thank you for your post as well as it made a lot of sense to me.   I can see lots of places getting so hung up on the strict regulations and missing the entire point of the pizza.  We see some examples of this in reviews written by trusted members on this site.  

Robyn - well said.  Exactly my question.  Since I have only eaten at a couple of NP places, I don't really have a good base to judge by, which is why I'm asking for opinions.  I'm confused by the vastly differing reviews from some of these top places that it makes me wonder how much is really hype.

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Wu, who's pie did you just post?  Quite a looker...

Chau

[chickenparm]

What a wonderful topic and so many good questions! Wish I knew some of the basic answers,but I do not.

A guy I know, is a partner in one of the Frank Pepe Pizzerias in NY,and they use a coal fired oven to cook their pies with...they also advertise as it Napoletana pizza.You can see it posted on the link.

http://www.pepespizzeria.com/menus.php

I always wondered,are they right? Or wrong? Or maybe they got it right,and everyone else before was wrong?They ARE claiming it to be Napoletana!!! Maybe pizza style is a point of view?

Love the topic Chau..I have no experience with this type of pie making but I do plan to learn and make something like it someday.

[wucactus1]

That pic is from Motorino, Probably the single most beautiful pizza I have ever seen...Its is honestly perfect looking, and it seems consistant through the night as well at least judging by the various other pics and vids I have seen.  Heres I photo of what I would consider roughly the perfect Pie from UPN.  His pizzas seems less consistent on the visual front, perhaps this is because his method is not so controllable as other pizzerias?  Its hard to compare and think about these "elite pizzas" with descriptions ranging from "nothing more pure or honestly whole can be bought at any price" to "it tastes like %$#"  This wide range for me as Chau is really confusing...and does elude to the fact as well maybe their pizza isnt really that good, perhaps their human after all, and Anthony has come out personally and said that sometimes his pizza is %$#, but on his worst days its better than anything in italy(I would love to have these problems).  Its his attitude that pushes his pizza upward for me as a standard.  This attitude seems to be formed from mixture of knowledge, respect, and experience, plus a little NJ.  As for Moto, the fact that he busted out the gates firing is shocking, especially in NYC and he hasnt seemed to stop, though there arent tons of positive reviews many sight him as good, not the best(often frannys and Keste are mentioned, who each have completely different pies which builds upon the uniqueness within our art), but out of nearly all Pizzas I have seen I continually return to motorino as a visual marker for perfection and would like to strive for Una's taste.  He just seems like a weird outlier in the bell curve on just about everything, again playing to the uniqueness of what pizza can be

[pizzablogger]

Wu, who's pie did you just post?  Quite a looker...

Chau

That is a Sopressata Pizza from Motorino....and I'm guessing Motorino EV from the marble table???

[pizzablogger]

Follow thread to end, answer already posted by David.

Did I get the EV location right?

[pizzablogger]

Long story short....at the end of the day, who really cares what style of pizza it is or what type of oven it was made in. Just make great pizza!

[Bill/SFNM]

Okay Bill, I guess I'll have to plan a trip sometime in the future and see for myself.

Chau,

For someone who is as inquisitive and passionate as you are about pizza and crazy enough to build your own WFO, a trip to Naples seems like a very important step. In my mind, I can see and smell and taste the pizzas I've enjoyed in Naples, but could never in a million years put together a string of words to describe the experience. I hope someday you can go and study the unique Neapolitan art form. But based on everything I've seen and tasted of your efforts, you will come away confident that you can do better. They probably have better cheese than we can ever get here and they can pump out hundreds of delicious pies per day, but I'm certain no one in Naples has the enthusiasm you do. In the end, it's all about each batch of pies you make and making them better and better.

Bill/SFNM

[BrickStoneOven]

David, Da Michele is the most famous pizzeria in Naples right?  And they use seed oil b/c it's cheaper?     That doesn't make any sense.  Why not use yesterday's cheese b/c it's cheaper as well? Why fresh cheese?  Is the idea to make the best pizza possible or save $ and make a profit, or both?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,656.msg11520.html#msg11520. Sometimes things that Marco has said get taken out of context and he has had doubters. Like Marc said most of the things he was talking about were on commercial levels. It's sad to admit but I've read all of his posts more than once. I wish the few members back then that were getting on his case so hard wouldn't have because there were posts that were very important that he deleted especially on the Caputo Biga thread.

[norma427]

Norma - I think the Manitoba flour that Paul sent us is the Marriage Miller's Manitoba flour and not the Stagioni Manitoba flour that Andre is talking about.  If I am mistaken, please correct me.  

Chau

Chau,

To answer your question about the Manitoba flour Paul sent you and me, Andre and you are probably correct.  I got the two kinds of Manitoba flour confused.

If you want to see another persons perspective about “is their a perfect pizza”, from a man that has been to Italy and has made dough for over forty years, and sounds as obsessive as you are, if you are interested this link on Pizza Quest might help you.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/contributors/45-guest-bloggers/210-is-there-really-a-perfect-pizza.html

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

I will give you my two cents worth.

Until you have a chance to go to Naples and see things for yourself, I would do as both David (BrickStoneOven) and I have done, and several other members have also done, and that is to read all of Marco's posts, or at least those that are directed to the Neapolitan style. The objective is to absorb as much as you can, like a sponge, without trying to come to any particular conclusions or form specific opinions as you read his posts. You should read his posts as a neutral observer trying to learn. As you go through the posts, you should keep in mind that Marco is just one person, with his own opinions, many of which can be quite rigid and inflexible. And, as has been noted, a lot of what Marco has written about is related to a commercial pizza operation. But there is a treasure trove of information in Marco's posts. You may struggle to understand some of the passages in Marco's post, both because English is not Marco's native tongue and also because he was intentionally cryptic and vague in many of his posts because he was planning to write a book on Neapolitan pizza and did not want to put so much on the forum that no one would buy his book (he specifically mentioned this concern). I think that that was why he deleted certain posts--because they gave away too much information. Marco will never get a Miss Congeniality award, but I think he was misunderstood and unfairly maligned by some of our members who expected him to reveal every nuance of his knowledge of the Neapolitan style, in most cases without giving back anything in return.

As I look at your original questions, I know that Marco answered a lot of them in his posts. If you read his posts, you will also get a better feel for the politics that is pervasive in the VPN arena. And you will see who uses/used natural leavening systems, preferments, and commercial yeast and the related protocols. Ultimately, what you want to take away from your reading are the things that will mean the most to you in your particular setting, with your particular oven, and your particular personal objectives and aspirations. That is where you will put your personal and unique imprint on your version of the Neapolitan style. And I am sure that you will be applauded for that.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Thank you for the words of encouragment and help guys and gal.  Between the links Norma posted and Marco's post I have exactly what I was looking for.  So my journey continues....

Funny, I never thought to read all of Marco's posts before for different reasons.  But in reading them now, there is a wealth of info there. 

Thank you Marco for your time and sharing your knowledge.

Chau

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

Part Deux: Once you are ready, you might also want to look at scott r's posts on the Neapolitan style. Scott did spend some time in Naples sampling its pizzas with a critical eye and palate and he also knows about Neapolitan doughs and has at least one valuable connection to that style. You might search Scott's posts on the forum with terms like Naples and Neapolitan.

Peter

[thezaman]

another former poster that has a wealth of information is Ron from ilpizzaiolo in Pittsburgh. search ilpizzaiolo.he has a lot of great information and pictures of a lot of the piazzas of naples.

[Jackie Tran]

Long story short....at the end of the day, who really cares what style of pizza it is or what type of oven it was made in. Just make great pizza!

Kelly, please don't misunderstand me.  Even if I don't understand or agree I have to care.  I have to know and recognize (at least to some extent) that & those who have come before me.  I have to know what I'm starting out with inorder to see how I need to change it for me.   How I can improve it, if possible.  Probably for the same reasons members continue visiting pizzerias.  It's more than the pizzas that we are after, it's for the inspiration, new ideas, confirmation of what we know to be right or wrong.  It's for the same reason many of us check in here multiple times a day to see what's going on.  

For me, the ideas that are born from this thread will shape what I do next.  So it's important to me.  I would love to chat with you sometime about your experiences though.  I would benefit immensely from that.

But I think I understand what you are getting at and agree.  I'm not wanting to copy a traditional NP technique or style.  I just want to study it, to see what parts I can incoprate into my routine.

Thank you Peter and Larry.  I will definitely read all of their posts on the subject.

Chau

[Jet_deck]

I had a great time poking my finger in the VPN's eye with my earlier post, but it has been bothering me (a little).
I vaguely remembered a story about Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Harland "Colonel" Sanders passion about his craft.  Maybe by the VPN setting forth a minimum set of guidelines/rules/procedures; they too, are truely passionate.


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=926