Bakery or Pizzeria?

[wucactus1]

NO FEES! You have no idea what kind of money situation Im in, the dollar movies seem expensive now days...Just think unemployed college student and im sure you can get a grasp on my financial stiuation, lets just say this bread baking isnt just fun, its part necessity.  I also dont eat pizza 3 times a week because I love it, oh wait yeah thats kinda why, well that and its cheap Marinara pies with garlic and olive oil, cant really beat it, but anyway...ill stop the stack of questions and let you finish off, you have no idea how much this means, its such an invaluable resource to me and the forum as a whole!
Thanks

[sfspanky]

NO FEES! You have no idea what kind of money situation Im in, the dollar movies seem expensive now days...Just think unemployed college student and im sure you can get a grasp on my financial stiuation, lets just say this bread baking isnt just fun, its part necessity.  I also dont eat pizza 3 times a week because I love it, oh wait yeah thats kinda why, well that and its cheap Marinara pies with garlic and olive oil, cant really beat it, but anyway...ill stop the stack of questions and let you finish off, you have no idea how much this means, its such an invaluable resource to me and the forum as a whole!
Thanks

Relax... it was just a joke.

[wucactus1]

I figured so...

[sfspanky]

why did you make the switch from bread to pizza?

One word - Sanity

My wife and I built up the bread business to the point we were making about 6 figures. Pretty awesome, however I worked from 8am to 1am by myself and my wife would get up at 4am and deliver until late morning or early afternoon, depending on whether there was a farmers market. We rarely spent quality time together and I spent the majority of each day by myself. It got old after a few years.

Pizza was going to be at least as profitable, if not more, and I would have the chance of working with others, seeing customers and spending somewhat normal hours with my wife.

Also, pizza in Portland was pretty mediocre to bad. I grew up eating pizza on the East Coast and the pizza being made in Portland was void of soul and pride. We saw an opportunity to create a niche in a market that was wide open. Turns out that we were correct in our assumption. We blew up pretty quickly and we believe we started the pizza revolution/evolution in Portland.

[sfspanky]

Would you have gone bigger/smaller/or stayed where you are now if you could do it over again.

We expanded once, after about 3 years of operation. The restaurant originally had about 50 seats, but we had no place for people to wait, so people would just fill up the restaurant, so our servers had a lot of trouble serving and people seated had waiting customers standing right over them. It was chaos!

The cafe next door went under, so we had first dibs on the lease and we took it without thinking about it. It added another 40 seats and a waiting area for about 25. We then reduced the original dining area, by removing tables, so that It only sat approximately 40, giving us a seating of about 80. We are at maximum capacity for what we do. Big enough that we can meet demand without sacrificing quality and also small enough that when we have slow nights, we don't feel it too hard.

Sometimes everything happens organically and works itself out the way it should. I think that happened in our case and I am not expanding or growing any larger.

[sfspanky]

Over and out for the evening. I'll continue tomorrow.

[sfspanky]

hand kneading and no refrigeration is really important to my philosophy as is the use of no commercial yeast.  Would you for drastic practical reasons advise against this?

I think it's important to push yourself as hard as possible and hand mixing is just one way to do that. It will catch up with you one day, however. I did it for about 8 years until I started developing serious pain in the joints in my hands and elbows.

As far as no refrigeration... You are going to make your days seriously long. Figure 16 hours a day, especially if you adapt the 8 hour feed schedule to your starter. You'll do it for a while, and then you'll want that extra time back in your life. Again, I think it's important to push yourself. I had a bakery without a mixer, refrigeration and I had a wood fired brick oven. Learned A LOT! Would I ever do it again? No! Chad Robertson and I had a nice talk about this 7 years ago as we both have gone through this (hand mix, no refrigeration, wood fired brick oven). He now retards his dough in a proofer, so he can go home, enjoy some time/life and then comes back to the bakery fully rested, as well he should.

I fully believe that pushing myself to do my bread without machinery made me a much better baker in the end. I would never do it on the commercial level again, however.

[wucactus1]

My joints are already going through enough haggard trouble, I rockclimb 5 times a week, but my climbing im sure in no way demeans hand kneading 10 hours straight...Im currently making pizza and prepping everything so I cant post a full response to your response right now, but I will shortly, In the mean time feel free to continually answer at your leisure, no rush
david

[othafa9]

I was also a bread baker before turning my head toward neapolitan pizza.  Bread baking requires more knowledge, training IMO and its tough, but I have to say, it made learning pizza much easier for me, than other folks I've seen training.  Learning dough making, handling, that all came easy after you handle some really wet bread doughs.

[jeff v]

Just a general thanks again to Brian for taking time to share so much-it's appreciated!

[wucactus1]

I agree with bill and you as well.  I think for some one or the other may come more natural.  Pizzerias, especially neapolitan ones tend to focus on one single thing, this doesnt neccesarily mean that its more simple, its just there are less variables, the attention to detail should always be great, and Im not saying Anthony has it easier than chad, both are constantly dealing with many factors, but chad has a fleet of bakers, this sort of evens it out.  I have learned alot from bread and alot from pizza, I have also found how the workflows and techniques are also similar, but the semantics of it all seems to be where the problems lie.  typically bakeries are larger and deal with more output and as Brian and others have explained it is very hard for a bakery to survive on just bread.  In order to pull a profit one must deal with the pastries, deliveries, etc. because we expect these things from bakeries, but neapolitan establishments are known to be minimal in the respect of variety, some places only serving two types of pizza, but this demands excellence.

[lilbuddypizza]

Nothing worse than baker's hours, unless you like going to bed at 6PM.....

[wucactus1]

yeah when I was i kid I remember my parents putting us to bed at 6 then waking us bake up at 1 to drive to across town to the bakery, then putting us back to bed and then waking us up again at 7 to get us ready for school, where my dad would drop us off during deliveries.  Its definitely non-stop, a lifestyle, but if its something you love you will in the end make it work.

[caseyspizza]

i think anthony and chad both have equal stresses and challenges. it really depends on the lifestyle you want, a pizzeria with beer and wine is definitely more hip and romantic. why don't you do a hybrid of the two? check out http://www.bigsurbakery.com/

[Saturday Coffee]

A Matador oven (the one Chad Robertson uses) runs about $80,000 delivered. If I had a bakery, I wouldn't settle for anything less than this oven.

http://www.bid-on-equipment.com/detail~id~104115.htm
Personally, I would start with a smaller used 4 deck oven with a proofing cabinet that could be your starter oven until you are ready to take out a mortgage finance a big one.

[PizzaDiFiore]

What are you more passionate about?  When you close your eyes, what do you see yourself doing in 5 years?  Be totally honest with yourself.  I own a couple of coffee shops and I am passionate about coffee.  I'm in the process of opening a pizzeria because I'm equally passionate about pizza and simple, delicious Italian food.

As you've read, operating a pizzeria or a bakery is long hours, bakery being longer more solitary hours.  This is not something that is entered into without serious and honest consideration.  If you are the one baking the bread and making the pizza you need to be able to physically be on your feet for 10-14 hours a day, with little to no breaks.  You need to be the primary employee (at first at least) in order to build your business and make a name for yourself.

If this is for you, and you are passionate about exceptional quality, do it.  Jump in with both feet.  Immerse yourself, do whatever it takes.  If you want to be happy do what you love and the money will follow.  But the passion, the drive, the ambition, will keep you happy.

[jeff v]

i think anthony and chad both have equal stresses and challenges. it really depends on the lifestyle you want, a pizzeria with beer and wine is definitely more hip and romantic. why don't you do a hybrid of the two? check out http://www.bigsurbakery.com/

I thumbed through the Big Sur cookbook a couple of months ago and IIRC it was a year in the life type cookbook that was pretty interesting.

[wucactus1]

I visited the Big Sur website and wandered around it a bit.  There general aesthetics and philosophies seem good, inline with what most of northern Cali is already doing.  Places like Big Sur, Berkshire Mountain Bakery, Tartine, and other places like Sonoma Bakery in AU. Represent exactly they type of place I would like to open one day, A places grounded within the craft, really dedicated to making the best product and delivering it in a hip, newly modern Cafe setting. One focused on sustainability and preservation as much as construction within the visual properties of the space.  there is one place here in town(table 310) doing this, not with a bakery, but a Tapas/charcuterie-fromage plates.  They seem to having alot of success, but would people be able to accept this sort of build within a bakery?  A place, where atleast here in Lexington is a little more that a room, some display cases, and a bunch of old 1970s/80s pictures and decorations of fat chefs and pastry.

[Pizza Pirate]

After reviewing this thread, one thing really stands out to me, and that is finding a niche like Brian mentioned and taking advantage of it. I live on the Oregon Coast and Brian really has started a pizza revolution in Oregon. Unless you go to Apizza Scholls or Ken's, you can not find artisanal pizza with great taste and high quality ingredients anywhere else in Oregon.

If you are going with a retail model, then location is going to be key. And do not forget to become an expert about leasing property, landlords can be tricky devils! 

If you can, open your business where there is little to no competition like Brian did at Apizza Scholls. Also, start small and build up when you can develop a sustainable client base. I have opened two businesses, one that failed and one that is less than a year old. From these experiences, I recommend spending as much time upfront to plan your business in all details (ie. legal and business formation, accounting, marketing set-up, human resources and also your food operations). You can invest tremendous hours getting your business planned and organized right. Once you open, you want to devote all of your time to satisfying your customers and running the operational details of your business. You will not have the time to go back and recreate the things that should have been done originally.

When you are planning the business, this is a very exciting task and can be thrilling at times. The catch I have seen watching other new business owners is that they were so excited to open their business, that they ignored putting all the business functions together within a solid foundation. When they opened, things did not go according to their dreams and were rudely awakened at how hard it is to make a business successful. It will probably take three to five years to really know if you are going to make it. Plan to have your fun now, when you are self-employed, you will not have a life except the joys of your business.

Finally, if you can find a mentor to review your business plan, that will be a huge plus. You need someone with an impartial viewpoint to really study your plan and provide honest feedback. Also, before you start your business, set a limit on your finances on how much you are willing to invest and when you will cut the cord if the business is not making it. Do it before you start and remember that any failures you may have will also lead you to greater successes.

Bruce

[bakerboy]

sorry so late to get to this thread.  mother with cancer,  running a business, short on help, new baby boy...nuff said!  As usual theres alot of good advice here.  not sure which would be harder to run, a bakery or round pie shop.  I've done both and each is difficult in its own way.  Not sure that thats the important thing here tho.  What is important is filling a niche.  What will your community support.  Whats the void in your area.  Doing what your passionate about is one thing, but you HAVE to make money.  Nothing will extinguish your fire like losing money week after week, month after month, with no end in site. 
Is your location busy enough?  Is it big enough to do what you want?  do clients have easy access to the location?
Also you have to be ready to move product.  Hand kneading all the dough, no refrigeration and no commercial yeast sounds romantic but wholly unpractical.  Get yourself a hobart and a decent reefer.  I'm the first to tout naturally leavened bread, but also the first to pitch in a tsp. or two of ady for insurance purposes.  It may be the difference between selling pizza and making money or losing the day, accomplishing 2 things: losing money and looking unprofessional to prospective clients.  Been there.  Not doing that anymore.
Finally, if you've got a good location and can fill a void in the community with whatever you've decided to do, and your pleased with your product, you can't forget to RUN your business.  Watch sales, track inventory, hold the reins on production, and pay bills.
  I know i didn't talk about pizza styles or coal fired ovens or toppings...and they are important, but keeping your doors open is imperative.  this forum is full of great threads on all of those subjects.  cheers and good luck .  Barry