Author Topic: Bakery or Pizzeria?  (Read 4733 times)

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Offline wucactus1

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Bakery or Pizzeria?
« on: June 03, 2011, 11:31:45 PM »
What do you think would be more difficult to run...An artisan Bakery or A woodfired Neapolitan place.  Think Something like Tartine(minus some of the crazy pastries, but keep some and the deli) vs. UPN.  Who do you think has it rougher, Anthony or Chad.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 11:36:24 PM »
I guess Chad.  Lots more product and employees.  More expensive oven as well.  

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2011, 11:39:52 PM »
I figured so that french steam injected oven doesnt come cheap...and I recall from some source on the internet him mentioning that the pastries pay the bills and the bread is just his fun...The reason I ask is that it is my dream to open up a bread bakery or neapolitan pizzeria.  My parents have ran bakeries before and its extreme hard work, but hopefully sometime after school I can get a career and save up the money and invest in to this future...Who knows, well see.  Do you think though in general simple bread bakeries are harder than small woodfired pizza places?

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 01:18:33 AM »
After only a few tries, I felt I had mastered Tartine bread. No matter what I do, it seems to come out perfectly. Neapolitan pizza, however, is very unforgiving and even after over 10 years trying to master it, I still have a long way to go - only a small portion of the pies I bake make me swoon. Absolutely no question in my mind that Chad has a much easier job.


Offline wucactus1

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 06:42:39 AM »
Thanks for the input bill, this seems to make since, when dealing with neapolitan pizza you need to control more things at their extreme, where with the bread you have an exact protocol, follow and you get an amazing bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 08:01:17 AM »
Good point Bill.  Being a master of neither, bread is a bit easier for me to make than pizza.  There are less complications in the overall process.    Assuming both guys are performing at expert level though, I would think Anthony is also following a pretty stict protocol as well.   Both the bread dough and pizza dough are affected by the same weather patterns there as both are using preferment/starter (I believe) and adjustment needs to be made to both equally.  Not one more so than the other.   

Perhaps Anthony obsesses over every little detail of his dough, but the majority of his clients wouldn't be able to appreciate the difference either way.  He makes a few different pizzas with a few different toppings.  I'm not sure how much more difficult it would be over running a bakery.  I could see Anthony running a bakery with the same eye for detail and I'm not sure his stress levels would be too different. 

But Wu did point towards a small bakery without some of the pastries so perhaps a pizzeria would be more difficult to run. 

Chau

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 08:15:11 AM »
Yeah it is apparent that Anthony is obessesive, but I would argue that chad also obsesses over every small detail of his dough also. Its also funny how both anthony, chad, as do we obsess over our doughs to an "extreme" level, and yet if things slightly changed or if we cared a little less would people come to notice?  I think not, but this is a whole new topic altogether, someone should start a thread on it

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 08:21:43 AM »
An additional challenge for the pizzeria is that pies are prepared to order and served immediately while bread can be baked in large batches with a shelf of a few hours (at least).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 09:34:27 AM »
wucactus1,

It's interesting that you picked Anthony Mangieri for comparison purposes. I would imagine that Anthony would have an opinion on this because he was a bread baker (naturally-leavened breads) in New Jersey before he switched over to pizza. According to the article at http://blogs.sfweekly.com/foodie/2010/11/interview_with_anthony_mangier.php, the bread business was a failure. But now that he has succeeded with pizza, he notes how physically demanding the business is (and at some point he may need help) and he has also discovered that he has wheat allergies, which limits him to one pizza a week. I recall reading or seeing a video somewhere where Anthony said he tried to get his hands on every book on baking that he could find and that he read them over and over, so he does have a solid background in bread baking.

Another good person who would be able to address your question is Brian Spangler, of Apizza Scholls. He also started out as a baker before he opened his pizza place. In fact, if you send him a PM and refer him to this thread I wouldn't be surprised if he posted on the subject.

Peter

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 09:50:07 AM »
Thanks Peter for the heads up on Brian. I sent him a pm hopefully he'll hop in.
Its interesting that you brought up this interview, as I have read this and just about any other material regarding UPN or anthony.  I also wondered why perhaps his bread buisness didnt work out?  All the bakeries in my town seem to do fairly well and knowing AM im assuming his bread was superb.  Perhaps he was very limited in his selections of breads offered as he is with his pizza and this lead to some issues.  Not everyone wants to buy bread but who doesnt love a pastry and coffee in the morn...as i said Chad mentions the pastries carrying the buisness, maybe this was his weakness?  As for the amount of work, my parents owned bakeries and when my dad threw his back out doing his carpet and carpentry work, the buisness suffered and eventually was sold...this devastated my parents and too this day(10 years later) I don think my mom is over it...It requires deep devotion, hard work, and investment no matter what buisness, it just so happens that bakeries both pizza and bread are imo more physically taxing than your diner.   The wheat allegy is very said, but one pizza a week is a good healthy amount, its better than none!

I have also been trying to track down some old bread books, mainly really really old ones, that are italian.  Marco mentions these really old books multiple times, but I am having a hard time locating such super old french or italian bread books.


Offline sfspanky

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2011, 01:28:43 PM »
What do you think would be more difficult to run...An artisan Bakery or A woodfired Neapolitan place.  Think Something like Tartine(minus some of the crazy pastries, but keep some and the deli) vs. UPN.  Who do you think has it rougher, Anthony or Chad.

Neither is easy to operate, however, having owned both a bakery and a pizzeria, I can tell you that I prefer running a pizzeria.

Bread has seemingly a great mark up as flour is your only real expense (minus pastries, where butter, etc. would weigh heavily in food costs), but if it costs you 50 cents to make a great 2 lb loaf of levain and you sell it for $4 that's $3.50 profit. Great! But how many loaves per day do you need to sell to break even with fixed costs? Also, you may not sell everything (often don't) and you may have 20 loaves that you don't sell, which means a negative profit of $10 in food waste/shrinkage. Most bakeries rely on wholesaling bread to restaurants to make the bread program profitable, but it involves invoicing, delivery, etc. Pastries and coffee sales are the main profits of a retail bakery.

Pizza is much more profitable. You can sell one pizza and make as much profit as you would selling 3 loaves of bread. But when you add potential salad and alcohol sales to that pizza, then you really start seeing profit.

Both are very labor intensive. Lots of hours on the feet and often no time to take breaks. I can't say one was easier than the other in the physical dept. What will really kill you in the end is stressing out over sales and profit. Nobody puts their life savings into a dream, works 90-100 hours a week and comes out on top 100% of the time. Most fail and the stress created takes a huge toll. Those that do succeed, still have to go through several years of stress before you start seeing the fruits of your labor. We almost filed at the 4 year mark, which is when we finally paid off almost all of our debt. Now, I don't worry about that problem anymore and I actually take home a check. Yippeee!

Both businesses require employees, insurance, taxes, bookkeeping, blah, blah, blah. All the not so fun things that most don't think about, or want to deal with, when running a business.

Every business has it's own parameters of size and production that come into play when determining fixed costs and labor needs. The bigger you get, the more vulnerable you are to loss. The smaller you are, the more you hinder your overall gross sales potential, but slow days hurt less.

Really a lot at play here. Ask me specifics.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 01:39:05 PM by sfspanky »
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2011, 01:45:10 PM »
I recall reading or seeing a video somewhere where Anthony said he tried to get his hands on every book on baking that he could find and that he read them over and over, so he does have a solid background in bread baking.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/04/videos-pure-and-simple-anthony-mangieri-una-pizza-napoletana-nyc.html at 4:30 in video.

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2011, 02:16:31 PM »
Brian again thanks for contributing...
Since you are asking for specfics I'll lay down my motivation/background on why I propose the question and follow that up with some specifics, though I dont want to over burden you with thousands of question, Im sure I can find those answers out their somewhere else.

Motivation/Background
I am currently a Senior at the University of Kentucky studying Philosophy, Art History, and Graphic/Web Design.  I have a great passion for both pizza and bread and someday wish to open a small neapolitan pizzeria/bakery, one with a mixture of new york delicatessen/bodega aesthetics coupled with your rustic cafe.  I would either do both under same roof, bread and pizza, or just one or the other. This notion of taking things simple and combining them in numerous different ways to produce something beautiful is what fuels me as an artist and person.  This transformation is powerful and to do it with art mediums is one thing, but with baking it is functional and life sustaining.  This is what drives me being able to produce something that people will enjoy and also helps to sustain them.
I am completely obsessed with bread and pizza. I have day dreams constantly about the business to the point where I have already graphically laid out the menus and will be working on the website in the next weeks or so, for a school project.  I wouldnt necessarily want to go straight from school to doing this...taking out numerous loans and risking it.  I would want to get into a career and try to save money, all while honing in on the perfect recipes...waiting until around the age of 25-30.

Questions:
Do you think a Artisan bread bakery and Neapolitan pizzeria would function under the same roof efficiently? Do you think you could possibly run a bakery out of your current store front aswell or would this idea require a smaller conjoined storefront?

Around how much(on average) am I looking at start up cost? Was the bakery more expensive or the pizza? You mentioned the calculation of loss and gains from waste, but no initial start up costs.

why did you make the switch from bread to pizza?

Would you have gone bigger/smaller/or stayed where you are now if you could do it over again.

hand kneading and no refrigeration is really important to my philosophy as is the use of no commercial yeast.  Would you for drastic practical reasons advise against this?

I have more questions deep in my mind, but for some reason they arent exactly surfacing at this moment(working on some posters for a non profit) ill post more as they come up.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2011, 02:57:18 PM »
I have to take my daughter to several Birthday parties today, so bare with me until I can get to all of them. I will answer each question independently.


Do you think a Artisan bread bakery and Neapolitan pizzeria would function under the same roof efficiently? Do you think you could possibly run a bakery out of your current store front aswell or would this idea require a smaller conjoined storefront?


Absolutely! I have known many bakeries that added pizza to their offerings for lunch and early dinner options. Some had such success, that they extended their hours of operation and obtained liquor licenses that allowed them to make more profit, while enriching the dining experience. Ken's Artisan Bakery here in Portland is an example of this. He had such success, that he opened up a pizzeria, but still does pizza out of his retail bakery site.

Yes, I could add a small bakery to our current space. It would require remodeling the restaurant (major expense), closing down the restaurant for a month or more (loss of sales) and take away dining seating (loss of potential profit). However, adding a bakery could extend our business operation into lunch, which we could sell pizza, bread and sandwiches and potentially make up any lost profit from dinner pizza service. Given the rollercoaster ride that I've been on for the last 8 years with this pizzeria, I'm not willing to gamble on something, when I have something that is working extremely well. Not saying it might not be a good idea in the long run, but I've seen enough stress for a while. Who knows what could happen in the future if I start to become restless and want a new challenge. That day is not today, however. :)
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2011, 03:51:37 PM »
wucactus1,

Another member who has been able to successfully marry bread making and pizza is bakerboy (Barry), although the pizza is sold under the bakery umbrella rather than as a separate business unit. I learned a lot from Barry about preferments and used what he taught me about preferments in many experiments, as I noted at Reply 130 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110966/topicseen.html#msg110966 and at Reply 557 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg58693/topicseen.html#msg58693, and in several other threads on the forum. Apparently, Barry continues to sell both pizza (tomato pies) and bread at the same location, as indicated at his website at http://www.blacklabbreads.com/index.html and in his menu at http://www.blacklabbreads.com/menu_Jan_2011.pdf. Last year, our own Norma visited Barry's bakery and sampled some of his products. She reported on her visit starting at Reply 104 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87442.html#msg87442. Barry's work experience heavily involved both pizza and bread, so apparently he found a way to offer both in his bakery.

Like Bryan, Barry is a quality human being. He does visit the forum from time to time so he might be another good person to contact via PM also. You can also learn a lot from Barry by reading his posts. BTW, one of the most fascinating things that I learned about Barry is that in college he majored in mycology (the study of mushrooms and other fungi), as he so noted when he told us when he first joined the forum, at Reply 132 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg9538/topicseen.html#msg9538. I even teased him about helping us with our mushroom pizzas.

Peter

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2011, 07:48:05 PM »
Thats interesting you pointed me toward Ken's as I am good friends with a portlander and she constantly raves about ken's saying my pizza kinda looks and tastes like his, not a bad thing, I guess.  His site is interesting and they offer a wide array of different breads.  He seems to have a good amount of formal training.  Brian did you receive any training and do you think its necessary or is working in an artisan bakery for a while enough?
The monday night pizza gig is a good way to slowly test the water and see if a pizzeria would strive and in his case it did.  It also seems you could do the reverse and begin to offer breads as apps and small selections for retail and then gradual grow with the demand.
It seems like opening up both under the same roof helps to potential take care of one another, recovering profits,  but at a risk as you said, but where in business is there no risk?
So it seems there is somewhat of a pattern both Ken, you, and anthony started with bread and progressed to pizza(though in different manners) perhaps this is what Anthony mean by paying dues.

Offline sfspanky

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 08:46:29 PM »
Brian did you receive any training and do you think its necessary or is working in an artisan bakery for a while enough?


I started working in the "trenches" in 1987, when I was 18. I didn't get any formal training until I decided to open a bakery on my own, so I trained with Didier Rosada for a month before doing so. I cannot stress how important it would be for you to work as much as you can before opening a business. Too many things to learn, that you can't be taught in a class. I would definitely recommend working in the biz for at least 5 years before deciding if it was something you still wanted to pursue. I put in almost 8 years before deciding to open my own place in 2000.
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline wucactus1

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 10:19:45 PM »
That seems to make sense.  I worked in the ny slice as a tosser for a few months then had to quit, because of schedule conflictions with school(working 9pm-4am) and their inability to work with me(they said they would) and it was fun work and wish it didnt start to compromise my studies, but none the less my time of slinging 24" pies is over and now Im trying to get a job in a bakery/the vpn pizza place in town...I have my own beef with vpn and this place, but im willing to put it aside to work with the oven and gain the experience.  But Lexington seems to be in a rut and absolutely no one is hiring in any business,a couple of places said to check back in the fall and a couple have me on at the top of their lists, my girlfriend is in the same position, hopefully things will turn around...
Some more questions to tack onto the pile...
-what was the Rosada training like?
-What clicked in you and made you decide to open up your place?
-Again why the switch from bread to pizza, did it just occur one day, did your obsession witch from bread to pies?
-what are your opinions on UPN and tartine and what they are doing/offering for the pizza/bread communities?
-why did you drop the hand kneading and pick up a mixer?

Offline sfspanky

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2011, 11:01:38 PM »

Around how much(on average) am I looking at start up cost? Was the bakery more expensive or the pizza? You mentioned the calculation of loss and gains from waste, but no initial start up costs.


Lots of variables here. New equipment?, used equipment?, lease acquisition fee?, etc...

I had a brick oven bakery that I built myself. I built the oven, did the plumbing, did the electrical, did the framing, did the drywall... I built it from the ground up. It was on my farm in outer SW Portland in the country. All I needed beyond what I built was a 3 door fridge, dough bins, peels, cooling racks, benching tables, scales, etc. I spent $50,000. I did not have retail saies... I sold to stores, restaurants and farmers markets. I didn't have employees. It was just my wife and I. I made the bread, she delivered it and ran invoicing.

The pizzeria Cost me more than I care to think about. I bought an existing restaurant, with it's 5 year lease for $60,000. It came with a walk-in, hood system, tables, benches, prep coolers, plates, knives, etc. I think in the first 4 years, I dumped about $100,000 into the business. About $25,000 was up front for the oven and other equipment, and I dumped another $75k into improving the infrastructure of the building, as well as buying other new equipment.

I would anticipate at least $100,000 and you could easily go up to $200,000 depending on what size operation and equipment you want. A Matador oven (the one Chad Robertson uses) runs about $80,000 delivered. If I had a bakery, I wouldn't settle for anything less than this oven.

These numbers do not include cash flow, however.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 11:21:15 PM by sfspanky »
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls

Offline sfspanky

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Re: Bakery or Pizzeria?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2011, 11:02:41 PM »
That seems to make sense.  I worked in the ny slice as a tosser for a few months then had to quit, because of schedule conflictions with school(working 9pm-4am) and their inability to work with me(they said they would) and it was fun work and wish it didnt start to compromise my studies, but none the less my time of slinging 24" pies is over and now Im trying to get a job in a bakery/the vpn pizza place in town...I have my own beef with vpn and this place, but im willing to put it aside to work with the oven and gain the experience.  But Lexington seems to be in a rut and absolutely no one is hiring in any business,a couple of places said to check back in the fall and a couple have me on at the top of their lists, my girlfriend is in the same position, hopefully things will turn around...
Some more questions to tack onto the pile...
-what was the Rosada training like?
-What clicked in you and made you decide to open up your place?
-Again why the switch from bread to pizza, did it just occur one day, did your obsession witch from bread to pies?
-what are your opinions on UPN and tartine and what they are doing/offering for the pizza/bread communities?
-why did you drop the hand kneading and pick up a mixer?

Be easy on me. Still working on your original round of questions.

Maybe I should be changing a consulting fee.  ;)
Brian Spangler
Apizza Scholls


 

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