Trying to find out crust category

[jcg]

Anyone from the SF Bay Area? I'm trying to see if Zachary's Pizza (deep dish) crust is considered a cracker type crust?? I posted a topic to recreate their crust in the chicago pizza forum, but maybe that is the wrong place? Their dough uses flour / water (50/50 approx) and very little oil, so is that what makes a crust cracker style?

jcg

[buceriasdon]

It may be a lower hydration dough, but I wouldn't think to call it cracker style. It's a stuffed pizza.
Don

[jcg]

Yes it's definitely a stuffed pizza, and the crust is 50% flour and 50% water with very little oil (2t) according to this link. So what would you call that type crust? I'm trying to recreate the recipe and looking for people that may have already tried since I'm new to this forum. I've already posted in the chicago style forum but haven't gotten any replies, so I thought I'd post here in case the crust fell under the cracker style.

http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/blogs/editor/2008/03/secrets-of-zach.html

jcg

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

In order to analyze the dough recipe that is given in the article you referenced, I converted it to baker's percent format using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. For this purpose, I assumed that the 8 ounces of water is a volume measurement, not a weight measurement. I converted that volume of water to a weight of 8.15 ounces (technically, 8 fluid ounces of water weighs 8.345 ounces but most people weigh out less than that amount). Here is my estimation of the baker's percent version of the recipe:

Flour (100%): Water (50.9375%): IDY (0.99843%): Salt (2.4609%): Olive Oil (1.98413%): Sugar (1.7578%): Total (158.13876%):

453.6 g  |  16 oz | 1 lbs 231.05 g  |  8.15 oz | 0.51 lbs 4.53 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp 11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 717.32 g | 25.3 oz | 1.58 lbs | TF = N/A

Based on the above, I would say that the style is a general style but where the dough is formed and used in a deep-dish style (actually a stuffed deep-dish style). The closest dough recipe that I can recall to the Zachary's recipe as given in the article you referenced is a recipe (which I dubbed "New Faithful") as described in Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg26116.html#msg26116. As you will see, the hydration for that recipe is 60%. However, an earlier version of that recipe (called "Old Faithful"), which is given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976, has a hydration of 51%. In a general sense, a basic pizza dough to make a flat pizza can have a hydration of between 50-65%. The Zachary's dough as described in the article falls on the low end of that range. The Zachary dough could be used to make a flat pizza but they choose instead to use the dough in a deep-dish stuffed style. From a categorization standpoint, I think the Zachary's pizza most closely mimics the Chicago deep-dish (stuffed) pizza. However, the crust of a Zachary's pizza is unlikely to have the biscuit-like quality of a typical Chicago deep-dish style because the Zachary dough contains only about 2% oil. So, there is little "shortening" effect on the gluten structure that large amounts of oil produce in a typical Chicago deep-dish style.

Peter

[jcg]

OK, thanks Pete-zza. I have a thread (link below) over in the chicago style forum but haven't gotten replies. In that thread I also tried to use the dough calculator and got the results below which are slightly different than yours. I also posted in the chicago forum about my first attempt last week of a DD pizza (used BTB's recipe for the Malnati pizza) and it came out great but as you say the dough is way more biscuity than Zachary's. I like both but guess I've gotten use to Zachary's and that's why I'm trying to recreate it (plus with less oil it's healthier - if you can call a pizza healthy ). I plan to buy a Zachary's (possibly this weekend) and post some close up pics of their crust, and then I guess I just have to try out a recipe and see how it goes. One last thing is the top crust on Zachary's stuffed pizza is very thin and it's not that crisp (like the bottom crust). Do some stuffed pizzas not prebake the top crust? It seems like Zachary's may put the cheese/tomatoes over the unbaked top crust and cook everything together?  Also with a crust like this will a small amount of oil, do you knead it more or still the gentle 60-90 seconds the Malnati recipe does? And then it rests overnight in the fridge?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14058.0.html

So using the dough calculator and trying to get the same numbers as above the best I can do is below. I had stuffed pizza clicked and set to 33%, bowl residue 0%, and hydration 50%. I had to set the pan size to 12" (vs the article saying it was a 10" pizza) to get the flour/water anywhere near 16oz/8oz.

Flour (100%):    480.99 g  |  16.97 oz | 1.06 lbs
Water (50%):    240.49 g  |  8.48 oz | 0.53 lbs
IDY (1.25%):    6.01 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Salt (2%):    9.62 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    9.62 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.14 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
Sugar (1.75%):    8.42 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.11 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Total (157%):   755.15 g | 26.64 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.125
Single Inner Ball:   567.78 g | 20.03 oz | 1.25 lbs
Single Outer Ball:   187.37 g | 6.61 oz | 0.41 lbs

jcg

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

I saw your post over at the Chicago board after I posted. However, before extrapolating from a 10" pan (which I assume is 2" in depth and straight-sided) to a like pan but 12" in diameter, I'd like to first determine the thickness factors for the inside and outside skins for the 10" size. For example, the article you referenced says to use about 2/3 of the total dough weight for the inside skin and the remaining approximately 1/3 of the total dough weight for the outside skin (the very thin one). The article also says that one should roll out the inside skin to at least 14" for the 10" pan. If we use 14" as the number, that means that the inside skin covers the bottom of the pan (10") and the sides of the pans (2"). So, 10" + 2" +2" = 14". My recollection is that when Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html, we intended that the inside skin fit the pan in the desired manner without overlapping the pan at the top.

So, the Zachary's numbers for the inside skin seem to fit the deep-dish dough calculating tool as we intended. With this in mind, I used the deep-dish dough calculating tool to calculate the thickness factor for the inside skin. I used the baker's percents I earlier came up with together with the pan size and shape (10" straight sided). I assumed that the inside dough skin went up the full 2" depth of the pan. I entered values for the thickness factor until I got a total dough weight for the inside skin of 16.87 ounces (2/3 x 25.3 ounces). That value turned out to be 0.12637 and the dough formulation for the inside skin was as follows:

Flour (100%): Water (50.9375%): IDY (0.99843%): Salt (2.4609%): Olive Oil (1.98413%): Sugar (1.7578%): Total (158.13876%):

302.48 g  |  10.67 oz | 0.67 lbs 154.08 g  |  5.43 oz | 0.34 lbs 3.02 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 7.44 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 6 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 478.34 g | 16.87 oz | 1.05 lbs | TF = 0.12637

Note: Assumes a 10" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2" and that the inside dough skin is pressed up to the top of the pan without overlapping; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.12637; no bowl residue compensation

A thickness factor of 0.12637 strikes me as a reasonable number although I can't say whether that is what Zachary's uses for the inside dough skin since I have never tried a Zachary's pizza.

For the outside skin, using the remaining 8.43 ounces of dough (25.3-16.87 = 8.43), and assuming a diameter for the skin of 10", I calculated a thickness factor of 8.43/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.107. In my opinion, that is far too high. If I had to guess, if the outside skin is to be almost diaphanous, you would perhaps want to use a thickness factor for the outside skin of something around 0.05-0.06. You might also make the skin larger so that it can be more easily secured to the inside skin. So, for example, for a 12" outside skin with a thickness factor of say, 0.055, the weight of that skin would be 3.14159 x 6 x 6 x 0.055 = 6.22 ounces. This is something that will require some experimentation to get right.

Now, if we fast forward to the 12" size pan you plan to use, and assuming that it is straight-sided and 2" deep, then the dough formulation for the inside skin might look something like this:

Flour (100%): Water (50.9375%): IDY (0.99843%): Salt (2.4609%): Olive Oil (1.98413%): Sugar (1.7578%): Total (158.13876%):

405.68 g  |  14.31 oz | 0.89 lbs 206.64 g  |  7.29 oz | 0.46 lbs 4.05 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 9.98 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 8.05 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 7.13 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 641.54 g | 22.63 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = 0.12637

Note: Assumes a 12" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2" and that the inside dough skin is pressed up to the top of the pan without overlapping; the thickness factor = 0.12637; no bowl residue compensation

For the outer skin, I would use a calculation such as described above. For example, you might use a 14" outside skin. Using 0.055 as a thickness factor, the weight for the outside skin would be 3.14159 x 7 x 7 x 0.055 = 8.47 ounces. For the ingredient quantities for the outside skin, I would use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The Dough Weight option would be used with the 8.47 ounces (and the same baker's percents as before). That would give us the following:

Flour (100%): Water (50.9375%): IDY (0.99843%): Salt (2.4609%): Olive Oil (1.98413%): Sugar (1.7578%): Total (158.13876%):

151.84 g  |  5.36 oz | 0.33 lbs 77.35 g  |  2.73 oz | 0.17 lbs 1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp 3.74 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp 3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp 2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp 240.12 g | 8.47 oz | 0.53 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Assumes a 14" outside skin with a thickness factor of 0.055; no bowl residue compensation.

To get the total dough ball weight (including the dough for the outside and inside skins), you would add together the ingredient quantities for both skins when you make the dough. You would end up with a total dough batch weight of 31.10 ounces (22.63 + 8.47 = 31.10). If you are ever able to get the proportions for the inside and outside skins right, then you might be able to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the stuffed crust feature.

With respect to the stuffed crust feature of the deep-dish dough calculating tool, I'd like to mention that there is an error in that tool. I discussed same a while back at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12462.msg118833/topicseen.html#msg118833. In your case, I think you should try to get the thicknesses of the two skins where they should be and then reconstruct everything so as to allow you to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the stuffed feature for the entire dough. Of course, you should feel free to play around with your own sets of numbers in the tools to get to a better set of output values.

You raised a question about what goes above and below the outside skin. From the instructions given in the article you referenced, it seems that everything goes below the outside skin except for the sauce and grated Parmesan cheese. They go on top of the outside skin.

If you proceed, I will be interested in seeing how a hydration of around 51% works. That is a fairly dry dough. I mention this only because I tend to be suspicious of most recipes that I see in articles that are attributed to particular pizza places. I have seen so many errors and misstatements in the past, whether intentional or unintentional, that I am suspicious of just about all such recipes. In the case of Zachary's, I also wonder whether a V.P. and COO of the company is the best one to discuss their recipes.

Peter

[jcg]

Ok, first let me make a few clarifications. I have a 14" pan, and when I referenced the 12" pan it was in regards to getting what the dough making tool spit out to agree with the amounts listed in the article's recipe. If I used a 10" pan the amount of flour wasn't even close to what the article said, so I though maybe it was an error in the article, but again you last reply looks like you can get the amounts to work by varying the inner / outer thickness.

I also agree that the article may not be the right recipe, but it's the only starting point I had. If you google "Zachary's pizza recipe" its the only thing that comes up. Zachary's has a cult following in the Bay Area as it's the best chicago pizza we have around here (most places are thin crust style). They are very secretive and won't give out the recipe, so that one article is all I got.

Also I don't think the top crust is really very important. They make it very thin and when I originally dissected one of their pizzas to come up with the layering / ingredients you can barely discern that there even is a top crust. I surely don't taste it when I eat the pizza. So to make things simple lets assume the article is correct and the ingredients are for a 10" pizza, so a 14" bottom crust and a 10" top crust like you said. The article also says that 2/3 of the dough is for the bottom crust, and 1/3 is for the top crust. I'm going to leave the top crust out, and just multiple all the ingredients by 2/3 to get what I need for the bottom crust. So with a 50% hydration, 0 residue and .125 thickness I get:

Flour (100%):    305.26 g  |  10.77 oz | 0.67 lbs
Water (50%):    152.63 g  |  5.38 oz | 0.34 lbs
IDY (1%):    3.05 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Salt (2%):    6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Total (155%):   473.15 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = 0.125

All the ingredients are a close match to the article's amounts x 2/3, so seems like a reasonable starting point. Do you agree. As I said I will try to buy a Zachary's this weekend and post close up shots of the crust.

jcg

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

Give it a try and see what you get. However, the results without the outside skin may be different because you won't have that skin serving as a barrier between the sauce and the fillings in the pizza so that the sauce doesn't permeate the rest of the pizza and alter the way that the fillings impact the palate (e.g., the fillings will not be mixed in with the tomatoes and, as a result, will retain their individual attributes). Maybe that is one of the reasons for using the outside skin even though you can't detect its presence. But, either way, the pizza should still taste good.

I believe that you forgot the sugar in your formulation.

Peter

[jcg]

Good point above the outside crust being a barrier and maybe that's why they do it. My first pizza I made last week didn't have the top layer and since I drained the tomato sauce (and it was pretty thick) I didn't have any issue with it leaking into the inner layers. Another thing I could try is to swap the inner layer of sliced provolone with the layer of grated mozzarella under the tomatoes. There would be a few gaps but the slices should act as a barrier. Also you are right I did forget the sugar, so the final recipe for a 10" crust would be pretty much matching the articles ingredients x 2/3. I'll change the pan to 14" for my version, and will report results back.

Flour (100%):    301.85 g  |  10.65 oz | 0.67 lbs
Water (50%):    150.93 g  |  5.32 oz | 0.33 lbs
IDY (1%):    3.02 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Salt (2%):    6.04 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    6.04 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Sugar (1.75%):    5.28 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Total (156.75%):   473.15 g | 16.69 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = 0.125

jcg

[jcg]

OK, I'm going to Zachary's tonight to pick up a pizza to dissect (for the 2nd time, first time I just figured out their layering and didn't really look at the crust). I will post a bunch of pictures and maybe someone with more pizza making experience than me can figure out if the articles recipe looks right. I am also going to try my first attempt and duplicating it so we will have a side to side comparison.

This is only my 2nd pizza attempt, so the 14" pan dough recipe is below (based on percentages we figured out on earlier posts). I made it late last night, and it seems like it came out OK so far. Measured the flour/salt, then let the ADY/sugar/part of water sit ~10 min till it was frothy on top, then added it to the flour, added the extra water and olive oil. Still it gently with a wooden spoon till it was basically mixed and then kneaded it for about 2 min. I know the recipe says they used a mixer for 3-5 minutes, but on the Malnati thread (where I made my first pizza) everyone said not to over knead and recommended only 60-90 seconds. Of course the Malnati dough clone has way more oil in it, so with a dough like this one should it be kneaded more than the 60-90 seconds? Lastly I put the dough in an oven that I got to 100 degrees and turned off, then let it double in size and then put it in the fridge. It didn't get into the fridge till about 11PM so it won't have 24 hours, so hopefully that won't be an issue??? Below is a pic of the dough after ~12 hours in the fridge. The article also has a comment about the flour being high protein, and I just used AP - is there a major difference?

Last question is should I continue this thread over in the Chicago style under my Zachary's clone post? Not sure if it should stay under cracker style or not? I can post a link on either thread saying to continue following it at the other thread.

Flour (100%):    522.03 g  |  18.41 oz | 1.15 lbs
Water (50%):    261.01 g  |  9.21 oz | 0.58 lbs
ADY (1%):    5.22 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Salt (2%):    10.44 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.18 tsp | 0.73 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    10.44 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.32 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
Sugar (1.75%):    9.14 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.29 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Total (156.75%):   818.28 g | 28.86 oz | 1.8 lbs | TF = 0.125

[jcg]

I'll keep posting here until someone says to move to Chicago style.

OK, here are the pics of the Zachary's pizza I just picked up (stop drooling ). I ordered it half baked which they cook for about 25 minutes (this is a 12" medium) vs 30 minutes for the fully cooked one. I'm guessing the crust on the fully cooked would look a bit darker, and so will this one once it goes in the oven @ 450 for ~15 min. I measured the the height of the pizza and it's about 1.25" with the crust max being 1.5" (at the edge). With the dough calculator we assumed the crust went up the sides 2", but maybe it should only be 1.5", or does it shrink as it cooks?

Total pizza weight is 1700 grams. I asked what kind of cheese they use and they said it's a blend of mozzarella, parmesan and romano, so it doesn't have a layer of provolone which I thought it did. I also asked for the nutritional info and for a small 10" pizza with 6 servings it is: 175 grams/serving, 360 calories, 12g fat, 24mg cholesterol, 48g carbs and 16g protein. Their signature pizza is the stuffed spinach/mushroom which is pictured. The layers look to be bottom crust, mozzarella cheese, fresh spinach, thinly sliced fresh mushrooms, mozzarella cheese, fresh spinach, mushrooms, very thin top crust, tomato sauce.

I'll post pics of mine later after it's cooked. Any other photo requests or things you want measured/tested/etc before it's all gone? You can also see pics at their website below. After seeing pics of the crust any insights as to how it would be described? Also for anyone reading this thread that decides to go to Zachary's I recommend only getting their stuffed pizzas, as I think their thin crust pizzas aren't very good at all.

http://www.zacharys.com/

jcg

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

I am out of town until about the middle of next week, so I won't be able to dwell on matters as much as usual. However, when I am trying to reverse engineer someone else's pizza, I try to follow their methods as closely as possible, at least until I see where changes may be needed to adapt the recipe from a commercial setting to a home setting. I also try as much as possible to make the same size pizza as produced by the recipe I am trying to replicate. Otherwise, I am likely to introduce too many new variables into the exercise. For example, I wouldn't use instructions for another type of pizza, even a similar one, as you did with the Malnati's instructions.

With respect to the type of flour to use, many Chicago deep-dish pizzas (maybe even most of them) use bread flour. That flour has a higher protein content than all-purpose flour but less than for a high-gluten flour. High-gluten flour is not common for a Chicago deep-dish style. Whether that holds true for a Zachary's pizza, which is unlikely to have a biscuit-like crust with minimal gluten development, I cannot say since I have never had a Zachary's pizza.

As far as the height of the pizza is concerned, I think it is normal to experience some shrinkage during baking. Maybe using something like 1 3/4" as the height of the dough in the pan might result in a baked crust with a maximum height of about 1 1/2". A few simple experiments should yield the best value to use. Remember, also, that there are normal variations in pizzas. Different workers can produce different pizzas, and order flow can also affect the results achieved.

For now, I would keep posting in this thread. In due course, I can move the thread to another board.

Peter

[jcg]

Thanks for the reply Pete-zza, and I guess will wait till you get back as not many others are replying (plus I won't be making another pizza for awhile as I've got lots of leftovers   ). I'll keep the thread going here and make a link to it in my other thread on the Chicago style board. Attached are some pics of my first attempt at recreating Zachary's mushroom spinach. It came out good, but there are definitely some changes I need to make (mostly with the dough). First off for the sauce I used 1 can of 6:1 augmented with 1T honey, 1t Italian spices, and 2 large garlic cloves minced (~1T) and nuked with 1T olive oil for 30 seconds. The sauce was good but definitely much more garlicy than Zachary's. I like garlic but next time I will just use 1 small/med clove. Also Zachary's had much more sauce, so 1 28 oz can needs to be augmented with more tomatoes.

OK, so on to the all important crust. I've already given the recipe, and as you can see from the pics the bottom of the crust got much browner than the sides. Unfortunately I bought my pizza pan before finding this forum, and got a shiny aluminum pan vs the black ones that everyone prefers. I took the dough out of the fridge about 3 hours before making the pizza (it was in the fridge about 18 hours as I said I made the dough late the night before), and it was about 80 degrees here so the dough did rise again by about 1.5 times. When I rolled it out the dough had quite a bit of elasticity, and would pull back each time I rolled it. Took about 2 minutes before I got it to ~16" round and it stayed (see pic of dough in pan). I cooked the 14" pizza with the pan sitting on a pizza stone on the lowest rack in a 450 degree oven for 36 min (rotated 180 at 18 min).

You can also see that my dough became more bready and thicker than Zachary's (compare the side views). My bottom crust was a bit tough and you needed a knife to cut through it vs Zachary's could be cut with a fork (they were both about the same darkness). Zachary's crust was flakier and sweeter also. I added the sugar to a small amount of water with the ADY as I thought that helped it proof. The sugar still gets into the crust but does it make a big difference (ie. make the dough sweeter) if you add the sugar as a dry ingredient to the flour?

So I have absolutely no idea how to fix the dough. I'm guessing I need to use bread flour since the article said they use a high protein flour and you state that most Chicago pizzas use bread flour. Any brand people like? Then I'm guessing the sugar should be added to the dry ingredients to get that sweeter flavor. Does the elasticity of the dough tell you about it being flaky or tough? Do I need to knead it more or less? Should I leave it in the fridge for 2 days? Should I take it out right before using it so it doesn't rise a 2nd time? Your help is greatly appreciated!

jcg

[Clive At Five]

Aside from the thickness I'd say the qualities of the crumb LOOK pretty similar to the Zachary's pics you posted earlier. The air bubbles are of roughly the same size, shape, and frequency.

I've been deceived many times in regards to how thin I actually need to press the crust of my deep dish pizzas. It doesn't take much before there's TOO MUCH DOUGH!

Since I am no dough-chemist, I will defer comments on flakiness and sweetness to the other, more-experienced members on the forum, but I'll keep watching, as I've been looking to make my deep dishes a little flakier as well!

For sauce, I like to augment a 28oz can with a can of petite diced. If I'm going for a less chunky sauce, I'll even pulse it in a processor a few times to break it down a little bit.

Overall, looks pretty dang good! How'd it taste? Did you have any moisture issues with the spinach?

-Clive

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

With respect to the sugar, dissolving it in the water, as instructed in the recipe you referenced, will help distribute the sugar more uniformly throughout the dough, but I don't think the difference will be material. That is, I don't think that adding the sugar to the flour will make the crust materially sweeter, if at all. One would have to conduct multiple side-by-side experiments to see if a difference is detected. I have made many pizza doughs with the same percent sugar and in some cases the crusts tasted sweeter than others. I would not trust my palate on these matters. Your palate is not a reliable technical instrument.

On the matter of the crust and its toughness, I would want to know how Zachary's prepares its doughs. If Zachary's is using 50% hydration, then it is highly doubtful, at least in my opinion, that they are rolling the doughs out by hand. That would be tedious and not conducive to volume production (or else they would have to make a lot of skins in advance and possibly use a proofer with temperature and humidity control to hold the skins in pans pending orders). For commercial volumes, it is quite possible that Zachary's is using a commercial roller or sheeter, with only a single or double pass through the machine. Giordano's, which also makes stuffed pizzas, uses commercial rolling equipment. It is also possible that Zachary's is using some kind of folding technique to get a layered effect that helps produce a flakier crust. They might even use a bit of flour between the layers to keep them separate. But it might also be that they do no layering at all if they are using commercial rollers because such rollers are not as hard on dough skins as a rolling pin in a home environment.

In your case where you used a rolling pin, I suspect that you overworked the dough skin and that that was responsible for the toughness. What I might suggest is that you allow the dough to warm up before rolling. The method that I have used is to employ a proofing box to do that warm-up. The method is described in Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138. I would go directly from rolling to the pan so that the dough does not have a chance to rise again.

With respect to the type of flour used for the Chicago deep-dish style, one of the most popular flours for the Chicago deep-dish style is a flour known as Hecker's or Ceresota bread flour. The two flours are identical, just sold under different names. If the folks who started Zachary's came from the Chicago area, they would certainly be familiar with the Hecker's/Ceresota flours. Whether they would use either flour in their CA stores is not known. With only three store locations, Zachary's has many options in terms of sources for their flours. Using Hecker's or Ceresota flours would be one of them, although they operate in parts of the county east of Chicago. However, Hecker's/Ceresota does have a foodservice division and may ship out west also.  

Peter

[jcg]

Clive, the pizza tasted very good but as I said the crust is the main issue to try and change to get it to be more like Zachary's. This is my 2nd mushroom/spinach pizza (the other one is described in the Malnati thread) and there is no issue with using fresh spinach and fresh mushrooms (sliced very thinly with a mandoline). You can see from the pics of the Zachary pizza that they use fresh spinach and mushrooms too. Zachary's uses a top crust which I did not do, but once I master the bottom layer crust I may attempt. I think the key is the spinach doesn't really cook all the way through like it would in a pan, and is cooked just to the wilting stage.

As for the dough. I guess we won't worry about the sugar, and how it gets incorporated. The sweetness thing could just be because there was more of my dough as it was thicker, so the breadiness of it took away from the sweetness (who knows). I don't know how Zachary's makes their dough, but I can ask next time I'm there to see if they will tell me. As I mentioned I did warm up the dough for 3 hours before rolling it, and it was about 80 degrees here so the dough actually got a small 2nd rise. I was thinking this might be one of the issues?? As for rolling it for too long being the reason the bottom was tough that is entirely possible, but the reason I had to roll it so much was because the dough was so elastic. Is a dough supposed to be real elastic like that? What makes it elastic, more kneading or less kneading, hydration %? As I said I didn't put my dough in a mixer like the original article said, but just hand needed it for 2 minutes? Does using a bread flour make the dough rise more or less, does it make it more or less elastic? Do you usually need to knead a bread dough more or less than AP? I guess I'm looking for things I can do that will make the dough not puff up as much when it's cooked. So next attempt I try:

1. Use bread flour
2. Knead more or less at first step?
3. Should I change the hydration from 50%, and if so more or less?
4. Should I let the dough stay in the fridge 2 days vs 1 day?
5. When I take it out of the fridge should I take it out maybe only 1.5 hours prior so it doesn't get a 2nd rise?
6. Other?

jcg

PS: I know appreciate how much easier it is to make a Malnati type dough. That dough has so much oil in it you just dropped it into the pan and pressed it out with your fingers.

[Pete-zza]

jcg,

My best advice is to try to follow the recipe and instructions as closely as possible, including the fermentation period. That will be the only way to know if the recipe and procedures are authentic or at least adapted to a home environment. I have a natural distrust of all recipes that are held out by famous pizza operators to be authentic but the only way to assess this issue is to make the pizzas exactly as described or as closely as possible. If you are making a larger pizza than the recipe calls for, you may need a somewhat longer knead time but not so much as to toughen the dough. Other possible changes may suggest themselves once you see what practicing the recipe as given produces in the way of results. I can't tell you how many recipes that I have seen that turn out to be duds. I think that is because they dumb down or otherwise modify the recipes so that just about anyone can follow the recipes using easy to get ingredients, home ovens, etc.

Elasticity is a function of several possible factors. A high protein flour will have a tendency to increased elasticity than a weaker flour. A low hydration value can also yield a more elastic dough. Overkneading can also make a dough tough and harder to roll out. Any combination of these factors will aggravate the situation. If Zachary's is using a dough roller or sheeter of some sort, they may avoid all of these issues. I suggested warming up the dough before rolling as a way of emulating a commercial roller or sheeter. In your case, a room temperature of around 80 degrees F may not be high enough. I personally would shoot for something of around 100-110 degrees F. Doing this may completely negate the need to let the dough warm up (temper) before using. If that approach doesn't work, then we will have to consider other alternatives.

Peter

[jcg]

OK, I'll try all those steps for my next attempt (probably not for a couple weeks), and report the results back with more pics. If I decide to buy a Zachary's again to compare, I'll also see if I can find out if they use a sheeter.

jcg

[jcg]

OK, well I'm back for another attempt. In an attempt to compare more dough recipes I've made 2 doughs for one 9" pizza (each set to .5 dough balls). I followed the same recipe for dough #1 as my last recipe posted above, but I won't be taking it out of the refrig as early as last time, plus I plan to warm it up in a 100% oven (as suggested) vs just letting it sit out. For dough #2 I've changed the water to 55%, ADY 1%, salt 2%, olive oil 5% and sugar 3%. This dough has a higher total hydration (water + oil) of 60% (quite similar to "New Faithful" mentioned earlier in this thread, and I should note it was easier to work than dough #1) vs 52% for the original (plus more sugar so should be a bit sweeter as last time I though Zachary's dough had a sweeter taste). The dough balls were too small to use a mixer, so both were mixed / kneaded by hand for similar amounts of time. I'll try to roll / shape them into half circles and pinch a seam at the center. Both doughs are currently rising (then off to the fridge), and I'll post results tomorrow night with a picture of the pizza and a comparison of the two doughs (plus I'll probably buy another Zachary's for a taste comparison again).

jcg

[jcg]

OK, getting ready to make tonight's pizza to see how the crusts in the last post come out, and I'll post pics later. I did end up going to Zachary's and got 2 of their small pizzas and they are in the attached pictures. The top one is a spinach/mushroom with a whole wheat crust (hope to make one of those in the future), and the bottom one is a Mediterranean with regular crust (the one I'm currently trying to emulate).

I also emailed Zachary's about the sheeter / roller and they were kind enough to reply and say they use a roller. Also when I picked up the pizzas I saw them making other ones in the kitchen and I saw them take a dough ball (just sitting out at room temp) and put in through the roller. They make 2 passes with the first one coming out a bit elongated, and then they rotate it 90 degrees and after the 2nd pass they have a perfect circular crust. When they put it into the pan it over hung the edges by quite a bit. Not only did it go up the inside 2", but it overhung and went down the outside edge of the pan another 2". So they trimmed off about a 3" piece, so maybe that is why the original recipe from the article seemed to make way too much dough according to the dough calculator?? Lastly the 10" pizza cooks for ~25 minutes if that helps.

Lastly the 2nd picture is of the dough after I cut off an outside edge piece and then crunched it in my hands. You can see there are lots of fine crumbs and then a few bready? pieces. I've had a hard time with adjectives to describe the dough since I'm not a baker, so maybe this will be of some help??? Anyways Pete does this extra bit of info help in figuring things out?

jcg