Author Topic: Marco's Sourdough Pizza  (Read 25449 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« on: May 26, 2005, 10:42:50 PM »
I justed started activating the Camaldoli culture and hope to be baking pies with it next week. I plan to use only the starter and no commercial yeast. What have been the experiences here for those that tried the recipe that comes with the culture?

Bill/SFNM



Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2005, 03:11:15 AM »
check Marco's posts for his better version of the recipe.  He is holding back a little on us about all the details because he is coming out with a book very soon that will tell us everything.  I think with your knowledge, and his basic recipe you will do great.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2005, 07:12:26 PM »
I already said that that basic recipe is a mistake

That use Marco's sourdough (Camaldoli), but the recipe was created by Ed due to some miss-interpeted information.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2005, 09:54:04 PM »
Pizzanapoletana,

Thank you for the info. Is this the correct one?

1650g Caputo 00 Pizzeria
1 lt Water
50g of Criscito (starter) or 2.5g of fresh yeast
45g Sea salt

Activating the Calmoldoli starter was almost a disaster. I use well water that is very alkaline (pH=8) and after the first day of activation, the starter smelled like vomit! :( Several washings later using bottled water (pH=6.7), it seems to be back on track. I have also activated the Ischia starter (sterilizing so the Calmoldoli and Ischia do not get cross-contaminated) and it has just the most pleasant smell. I can't wait to start using both and never agin using commercial yeast.

Bill/SFNM

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2005, 04:08:17 PM »
Pizzanapoletana,

Thank you for the info. Is this the correct one?

1650g Caputo 00 Pizzeria
1 lt Water
50g of Crisceto (starter) or 2.5g of fresh yeast
45g Sea salt



Bill/SFNM


yes it is the one
Start with this and once you become confident, try to reduce the starter and the flour, slightly...

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2005, 02:27:28 PM »
Today I  made of batch of pies using only natural Italian starter - no commercial yeast. I had planned on using the Camoldoli culture, but the Ischia one was activated sooner. I have to say I was somewhat disappointed at the results. Although the culture seemed to add a little tang to the crust, it provided almost no visible rise, not even during baking. Cornicione had very little bubbles and was on the hard-tough side.  :(

I gave the dough about 20 hours of fermentation at room temp. Maybe the culture had not been sufficiently activated.

The dough formula above is much drier than I am used to, but it was certainly easier to work with. I am also used to using much more natural starter and adding some commercial yeast, but I'm trying to see if I can get good results without commercial yeast.

Not sure what direction to go from here. Try the Calmoldoli culture? Use more starter? Any ideas?

Bill/SFNM

Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2005, 02:50:27 PM »
Bill, I have been experimenting with Marco's recipe for the past few weeks.  I also had trouble at first getting used to dealing with the starter.  I have been using the Ischia starter successfully in the past coulple of batches.  I don't know if this is true, but I read somewhere that the starter takes a little while to get up to its full potential even after it looks active.  All I know is that all of a sudden it started working better for me.  My problem was that it was too sour, but it has seemed to mellow.  I think a big part of the leavening aspect of the culture is that it has to be used in it's peak of activity.  Also realize that Marco recommends that the starter is more of a dough consistency than the 50 50 than Ed recommends in the directions.  I don't use my starter until it is expanding so much that it is overflowing it's container.  I also don't use it until it is overflowing pretty soon after feeding.  Trial and error is common with these things from what I have seen.  Don't give up, you will be rewarded. 

As far as the dry dough goes, I often don't get all the flour into my batches, but rater go by feel, and this has helped a lot.  You have had enough experience to know when the dough feels right. Trust yourself, and don't pay attention to the flour amounts in the recipe.  Some days I get it all in and the dough feels just like the next batch with less flour????  Humidity on any given day is the factor I guess.

Also, don't expect quite as much spring as yeast would give.  If you feel like the dough is too dense, a higher hydration dough and a hotter oven could help you out.  You will get it all into balance with work.  I have also done the combo IDY/starter thing, and it works great.  Just use a really tiny amount of IDY.  I know Marco has stated not to combine cultures cultures in the dough, but I wonder what his feeling is on mixing IDY and culture.   I think you loose some flavor, but between the Caputo and the culture flavor there is plenty to spare in my opinion.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2005, 02:57:50 PM »
Thank you, Scott, for the information and encouragement. I am as stubborn as they come so I have every intention to forge ahead on my quest. I will keep feeding the Ischia. It is not nearly as active as yours.

Why Ischia? Why not Calmoldoli? What's the difference in the final pizza?

Thanks again for your help.

Bill/SFNM

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2005, 03:10:34 PM »
I disagree that the starter doesn't give you as much as oven spring as IDY. It just needs more experience. Back in my early days on this forum, in aswering PTF Tylor, I reccomended my "guide recipe" (there is not a recipe in the artisanal baking world) for experienced bakers.
Unfortunately it is very difficult to explain. I could not even train you in one day. This is an artisanal job and requires time and experience, but you will get there...

Ciao

Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2005, 03:14:02 PM »
Ischica has a less sour flavor, but gives less spring, I could be wrong on the second one.  If you haven't already you can click on pizzanapoletana's name on one of his posts, then click on "read latest posts of this member".  This will let you see all of his posts from his first day as a member.  In there will be answers to many of your questions.  I just want the darn book Marco hurry up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once your starter is more active you will find it works much better.  Beware of the extra flavor it will impart though!   I have been finding that 24 hours is way to long with my higher than recommended room temp and a really active starter.  Marco recommends 65 degrees, and my apartment is usually 80.  I can't wait till it gets a little hotter and I will be able to turn on my window air conditioner.  I am going to put the dough in front of it, and take temp readings with my laser thermometer to try to get the recommended temp.  I have also thought about getting an old dorm fridge that has trouble keeping cool (lots of those around here in Boston) to try to get the 65.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 05:01:04 AM by scott r »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2005, 04:42:36 PM »
Sante Fe Bill,

A while back, I made several pizzas based on pizzanapoletana's dough recipe, after scaling the recipe down to a single-pizza size to allow me to make experiments without ending up with a lot of unused dough. I used the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour in the scaled-down recipe and a natural preferment I had made locally, also using the Caputo 00 flour. I reported on the results of my experiments at the Caputo 00/Caputo 00 Biga thread, starting with Reply #16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.20.html. Subsequently, I reported on my continuing experiments using essentially the same recipe at Replies ##23, 26, 28 and 65. You might find it helpful to look at those posts since I detailed my experiments quite carefully so as to be as instructive as possible to those who might follow in my steps.

I used my Caputo 00 natural preferment in a somewhat liquid state--like a very thick batter rather than like a piece of dough. Like fellow member scott, I also experimented with using the Caputo 00 preferment together with small amounts of IDY. I personally preferred the doughs made only with the Caputo 00 natural preferment, because for some reason when I used the IDY, no matter how small a quantity, the flavor of the finished crust was much more subdued than the crusts based only on the Caputo 00 preferment. I reported on the results of those experiments also at the abovementioned thread.

I have read that the proper time to use a ripened preferment is just after it has peaked in activity and the center of the preferment starts to sink a bit. Like scott, I feed my preferment after removing it from the refrigerator and let it sit at room temperature until the volume expands and the bubbles are many and active. As pftaylor and others have commented before, it takes a few weeks for a new preferment to become really useful. Some of my early experiments with the Caputo 00 preferment took place before it was really ready for prime time. Yet I got good results nonetheless.

Where you are in Sante Fe, you may have to make adjustments to your processes to take the altitude into account, as you apparently have been doing with your breads. One place where you may have to make modifications is in the amount of flour used. Although I made almost all of my Caputo 00 doughs by hand, when I use a stand mixer, I put all the water into the bowl and add only the amount of flour to get to the stage I want for the dough in terms of hydration, etc. (I know from the amount of leftover flour what the final hydration level is and make minor adjustments as necessary). When I use a food processor, I do the reverse--I add all or most of the flour to the bowl and add whatever water is required to get the dough ball to the desired stage.

I'm sure in due course you will master the process. Being stubborn certainly helps :).

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2005, 02:47:06 PM »
In our last episode, the Ischia culture was insufficiently activated causing disappointing results. This week I carefully tended the starter, observing it get a bit stronger with each feeding. When it blew the lid off it's plastic cambro incubator, I figured it was ready. :)

After the let down from last week, I was prepared for a long period of experimenting to learn about this culture's life cycle. Surely it would be a month or more before I could get an acceptable crust without using commercial yeast.  How much culture to use? How long to ferment and proof? Well I got pretty lucky because I stumbled upon what may be one of the best crusts I've made to date. I was stunned that I was able to get a great corniccione with no commercial yeast.  The particulars:

100% Caputo 00
67% bottled water
3.5% active Ischia starter
2.7% salt

30 minute kneading at lowest speed in KA
20 minute riposo
12 hour ferment at room temp (dough had doubled! Living at 7000' must have helped)
6 hours in the refrigerator
balls formed and 6 hour proof at room temp.

Baked about 90 seconds on 800F deck

Here are some photos:

Early in the kneading process:

(http://www.cordless.com/images/pizzaA.jpg)

Near the end:

(http://www.cordless.com/images/pizzaB.jpg)

After 90 seconds in oven (brushed with a little EVOO):

(http://www.cordless.com/images/pizzaC.jpg)

Side view (sorry for poor quality of photo - I'll try to get better):

(http://www.cordless.com/images/pizzaD.jpg)

Bottom view:

(http://www.cordless.com/images/pizzaE.jpg)


Bill/SFNM

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2005, 03:18:20 PM »
Sante Fe Bill,

Very nice job with the pizza. How did it taste? And how pronounced was the flavor from the preferment you used?

I notice that you used 3.5% of the starter. Was that as a percent of the flour? I notice also that you used 30 minutes of kneading at low speed. I assume that even for such a long knead there was little heat buildup in the dough. Is that so? With 67% hydration, did you have any problems handling, shaping and stretching the dough?

Now you at least have a starting point from which to base future experimentation, with reasonable assurance of success. Is there anything that you plan to change the next time around based on your results? One of the interesting things I took away from your experiment was the use of both room temperature and refrigeration of the dough. I have done both individually but not in combination, and had wondered whether one could do both with the same dough and get good results. Being able to do both might be a way of achieving better dough management, especially when distractions and interruptions force us to adjust our dough management practices.

Soon, when you get your Santos machine, not only will you be able to become a pizza dough commissary, but you will be able to make and sell some outstanding pizzas from your 800 degree oven. Maybe you will inch your way into the business ;D.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2005, 04:04:10 PM »
Peter,

Thank you. The taste was wonderful - not yeasty, a little tang, smoky and with a buttery hint, if that makes sense. It didn't taste too differently from the crusts I make from my old natural starter and commercial yeast, but I am clearly at the start of a steep learning curve, so I am optimistic that better results lie ahead. I think the taste contributed by the culture will improve as it matures.

Yes, all measurements were a percent of the flour. No heat buildup in the dough. As with all of doughs I make with high hydrations, it was pretty sticky. I tried to use the minimum of bench flour, but of course, some was needed. The only problem I ever have these wet doughs is unloading into the oven. I made four pizzas and one made a mess coming off the peel.   >:(

I suspect as this culture matures, it may become more acidic, but also more active allowing me to reduce the amount of starter over time. Next time I will allow it to proof a little longer since the fourth pizza rose better than the first one. The refrigerator retardation after 12 hours was simply because I awoke in the middle of the night and saw the dough had doubled, so I put it in the refrigerator until I woke up in the morning. Just dumb luck.  If this procedure proves valid, then I can make and ferment dough a day or two ahead, put it the refrigerator, and simply take it out to form and proof 6-7 hours before baking. I definitely want to work on this more to find the best way of having the dough ready when I want to bake it.

Darn Santos machine is back ordered until the end of the month which means I'll see it some time in July if I'm lucky. I have the utmost respect for those in the business who can produce a quality product at a profit. But that's not my ambition. Corny as it sounds, making the best food I can for my family and friends is my sole motivation and a source of great satisfaction.

Thanks to all here whose help has gotten me this far. Onward and upward!

Bill/SFNM

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2005, 06:24:30 PM »
Bill/SFNM,
Okay I'll admit it. I am officially jealous.

I don't want to be but I can't help it. What I would do to be able to bake in a real wood burning outdoor oven. I look like Pavlov's salivating dog right now after viewing your pictures. Then I find out you are getting a Santos fork mixer to boot. Pure envy.

You have the inside track on setting new quality standards due to your passion for pizza. You have higher quality equipment than 99.9% of the pizzerias in the world. I sincerely doubt the other 1/10th of 1 percent can match your passion.

I can't wait to share in the journey with you. At least I will be able to say that I knew Bill/SFNM before it was fashionable to say so.

All kidding aside, I better go now and wipe the drool off my chin...

Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2005, 06:59:14 PM »
Sante Fe Bill,

I know that Marco uses a preferment that is more like dough than a batter. I have used both with good results. Which form did you use, and did you weigh it? Also, what was the total dough weight you used for the four pizzas and the diameter of the pizzas? Thanks.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2005, 07:41:33 PM »
peter,

The starter was about 56% water - more like batter than a dough. This is cut & pasted from my spreadsheet that I downloaded from Jeff V (what a great tool!).

Ingredient    Grams         Bakers %
Flour                603.60    100.00%
Water             400.98    66.43%
Starter                20.84       3.45%
IDY                       -       0.00%
Salt                   16.58         2.75%

Total weight about 1040 grams. About 256 grams per 11"-13" pizza.

These numbers do not include bench flour. Not sure how much I used.

Bill/SFNM

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2005, 09:41:13 PM »
Hi Bill,
I think we crossed paths a couple of years ago?Here's the mesage:

David,
Thanks to you I am the proud owner of 25kg of Caputo 00 pizza flour. I just baked up a batch and must say it was the best and most authentic  of my humble efforts to date. By the time I've used the whole bag, I should have it nailed. Thanks for the help!!

So how many bags have you used before you actually "Nailed It"?!Ha Ha!

You are doing great by the looks of things Bill.I had a few questions,most of which have been addressed.just wondering which cheese you used (Buffala,homemade?)i had always put the buttery flavor down to using buffala?

I'm almost ready with my recently built oven and am now waiting patiently for my starter to activate.It is the first time using a criscito so I'm a little nervous,as it will also be the first Pizza in my own oven.I feel like I'm preparing for an opening on Bropadway !You obviously have great passion Bill,and we are lucky to have Marco providing some insight over here.regards and good luck,
                                             David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2005, 09:54:06 PM »
Sante Fe Bill and David,

I assume you guys also remember this--the question for which you, David, provided the answer:

Oggetto: DOC Neapolitan Pizza Dough - 
Inviato da: Bill/SFNM/USA
Data/Ora: 23/07/2003 ore 20.00.11
   
Messaggio:
I have been trying to perfect the dough for "DOC" pizza napoletana that I cook in my wood burning brick oven at home. Just can't seem to get the crust right (authentic). Latest attempts have been with "00" flour from King Arthur. Anyone in the USA have a source for flour to produce the real thing? 

One of the funny thing about the thread in which the two messages appeared is that when I used the Google translator to translate some of the stuff into English, including the page of the thread with the name of Fred Mortati, the importer of the Caputo 00 flour, Fred's name was translated into Fred Dead. I subsequently told Fred that (and emailed him the translation) and he got the biggest kick out of it. I sometimes jokingly refer to him as Fred Dead.

Peter


« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 10:00:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2005, 10:43:32 PM »
So how many bags have you used before you actually "Nailed It"?!Ha Ha!

David,

Great to see you hanging out here. You don't know how much your suggestion of Caputo 00 has changed my pizza life. I'm still trying to nail it and probably will be for a long time. I would guess I've consumed 7 or 8 bags in the past few years. 

I really wish my Italian was better - that forum seemed to have so much good info. I think I tried different translation sites and they rendered the posts unintelligible.

I'll make homemade bufala as soon as I get a water buffalo for the back yard. ;D. Although I like to use homemade cows milk mozzarella, this particular pizza had a cheese that a friend brought me from Mexico: queso Oaxaca which is a great melting cheese, especially at high temps. American versions of queso oaxaca are not very good, but the real thing is delicious and makes a great pizza. I used "buttery" to describe the crust. I really don't have a vocabulary to describe the complex flavors that roll across the tongue when eating really good bread.  I guess we could follow the lead of the wine snobs: "the first bite of the corniccione was reminiscent of an air bag deploying followed by the scent of baby diapers"  ;D

Good luck on your maiden voyage! Let us know how everything comes out.

Best,
Bill/SFNM