Author Topic: Marco's Sourdough Pizza  (Read 25549 times)

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Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2005, 11:14:37 PM »
That's funny Peter!,(and also the fact that you linked Bill and I from a different site).I have spent an amazing amount of time over the years trying to translate,decypher and unlock the meaning of Google Translations.I think I should put together a fool proof glossary of real terms .My wife just walked in and asked "Just how much can you read about Pizza?".
I think I haven't even scratched the surface............
It's amazing though that due to my brief encounters on the Italian site,I travelled to Italy ,met other contributors to the site and was invited to thier Kitchens and share in thier passion.Amazing.
How much can you read about Pizza?.............How much can yo EAT is my answer!
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2005, 07:43:14 AM »
David,

I got the telephone number for Orlando Foods from your post, and that led me to Fred Mortati and to the Caputo 00 flour. I know what you mean about Google translations--and getting words and phrases like "peak", "paste", "daisy" and "knows them all"  ;D.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2005, 04:45:44 PM »
Chapter 3 - Camaldoli Culture
[/b]
Tried the newly activated Camaldoli starter for the first time and it was sensational. Although others have reported different results, this one was milder and weaker than the Ischia - maybe because it still needs maturing. Fermented for 24 hours at room temp and proofed for 5 hours at room temp. In contrast to the Ischia that doubled during a shorter fermentation, this expanded only about 25% after a longer fermenting.

Everyone agreed the flavor of the crust was terrific: a little tang and very complex. Very tender,  even fluffy if that is what Marco means. Not at all dry or bready. Here is a picture:

(http://www.cordless.com/images/pizzaX.jpg)


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2005, 06:34:47 PM »
Sante Fe Bill,

I'd say you have aced it :). That cornicione looks great.

You might recall that Marco said that the dough in his basic recipe shouldn't rise during the fermentation/ripening periods (or words to that effect). That was basically my experience using my Texas-bred natural preferment. Did you do anything to the dough after the 24-hour fermentation, like knock it down or reball it, before embarking on the final 5 hours?

Now that you have tried out both sourdo.com starters, do you find that they are better than using commercial yeast, either alone or accompanied by the starter you had been using?

Peter


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2005, 07:50:37 PM »
Pietro,

Marco's statement about the dough not rising much until baking had me puzzled, especially when the Ischia doubled. But (not to sound like a broken record), doughs rise faster with less yeast at 7000' above sea level. Which means I can probably cut back on the amount of starter as I get a better handle on these cultures.  For some reason, I think the altitude is giving me a larger window for fermenting/proofing and creating a balance between the yeast and the other microbes. Need to do a lot more testing.

When I awoke this morning, the dough had been fermenting for 24 hours, so, as gently as possible, I shaped it into balls and allowed it to proof at room temp until it was time to bake. No punching down - this dough is way too sticky to handle much at all. After 5 hours, each ball had flattened and had puffed up a bit and didn't seemed to be overproofed at that point.

I still have a lot of experimenting before I determine which starter is "better", but my old natural starter which was born when I lived in San Francisco and has mellowed a lot over the years here in New Mexico and which I have always used with commercial yeast is now my least favorite. Based on today's success, I intend to focus my experiments on the Camaldoli.

I think what I'll do is to invite over some foodie friends who have provided me with a lot of good feedback over the years and bake up a few batches of pies using the different starters for some blind taste  tests. Should be fun.


« Last Edit: June 11, 2005, 08:21:26 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2005, 12:31:34 PM »
xxx
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:21:09 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2005, 03:42:11 PM »
Marco: Thank you for clarifying the condition of the Caputo 00 dough during the two time periods. In my case, the two periods didn't mean as much since I was making single dough ball sizes. To refresh my recollection on the entire dough formation process, today I went back and reread all your old posts on the subject. That turned out to be a very productive exercise since it helped me pull a lots of odds and ends together and put things into better context, particularly in light of my own research in this area over the last few months. One thing I wondered about after rereading your posts is how do you personally refresh your starters and how often do you do it? And how frequently do you use your starters to make doughs? And, finally, is it necessary (as opposed to desirable) to periodically recreate a starter? By this, I mean to take say, a tablespoon of the existing starter, add flour and water to it, let the mixture work for several hours, and then repeat the process again, and, once the "new" starter is completed and functional, throw away the rest of the original starter. I know that this process is sometimes used to refresh a starter that has problems, but wasn't sure whether it should be done on a normal, routine basis.

Sante Fe Bill: I too wondered about the elevation effects in your recent experiment. Also, I wondered whether your temperatures around Sante Fe are starting to rise, having the effect of accelerating the fermentation/ripening process and making the dough rise a bit too much. Here in Texas it has been very hot, with high room temperatures. Marco says 64.4-68 degrees F is the desired room temperature range. Apart from finding a way to cool down a little space to place my dough, I suppose I could counteract the high room temperature effects by increasing the salt levels to slow down the fermentation process (maybe adding the salt last to minimize effects on the gluten and enzymes), but that doesn't seem to be all that inviting an approach. I'll be interested in following your progress as you continue to experiment with your starters as it warms up there also.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 12, 2005, 03:50:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2005, 04:08:27 PM »
Marco: One thing I wondered about after rereading your posts is how do you personally refresh your starters and how often do you do it? And how frequently do you use your starters to make doughs? And, finally, is it necessary (as opposed to desirable) to periodically recreate a starter? Peter

-I have two working starters at the moment. I make breads 3-4 times a week, and about 6 hours before making the bread, I refresh it straight from the fridge. each starter doesn't spend more then 3 days without refreshing. In a professional enviroment (e.g. pizzeria) I would not put the starter in the fridge and I would refresh them every 12 hours (changing refreshing technique).

-What you are talking about are washes. I would only do it if the culture become to acid. It does happen at times to the liquid ones when I go on holiday for about 2 weeks, but it has not been necessary for the dough-lconsistency one (which I use more often for pizza making).

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2005, 04:08:30 PM »
Also, I wondered whether your temperatures around Santa Fe are starting to rise, having the effect of accelerating the fermentation/ripening process and making the dough rise a bit too much.

Peter,

The weather has not been hot during the past few weeks. Right now it is 67F in my kitchen.

I still have a long way to go to get a handle on how these starters behave. For example, I pulled the Camaldoli out of the refrigerator this morning, fed it, and it became fully active twice as fast as before. Boy, it  smells great. I'm certain that many factors will make my experiences up here very different from yours in Texas and Marco's in London and others at sea level. We've talked about the lower atmospheric pressure increasing the effect of the yeasties. I think the lack of oxygen in the air could also slow down the metabolism of some of the microbes.  Gluten formation also may be affected since normally I have to knead things much longer than directions specify.

I think a good goal will be to get a reliable procedure for storing and activating the starter so that my experiments have a stable baseline. Got to keep in mind that the starter is a living, dynamic, complex entity that I need to get to know well in order to control and use most effectively.

Right now I am mixing up a batch of pizza bianca dough to see how it does with natural starter.




Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza Dough Management
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2005, 10:17:00 AM »
Marco,
You said that your Dough was good for use for up to 24 Hrs after the room temp.fermentation.Is this while keeping it at room temp. or does it then need to be refrigerated to maintain it?Thanks
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2005, 01:31:23 PM »
David

I never say that (or at least meant to say that). I do not know which post you are refering to but if I make a dough to be used  after 22 hours, it can last from that point to another 4-5 hours. If I think that some of the dough ball won't be used, then I would put them in the fridge to be used for lounch next morning (this only in a professional setting).

Ciao

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2005, 02:01:55 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1027.msg9161.html#msg9161

It was this message that I was reading Marco,so I apologise that I misunderstood you.I don't have room in my Refrigerator for all my experiments!!!Ciao,
                                                                   David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2005, 02:26:29 PM »
O.K. so today was showtime.Regardless that today it felt like a 100degrees outside at lunchtime,my oven was complete(well almost!) and my Camaldoli starter has peaked yesterday.I followed Marco's recipe but increased the Caputo to 1700g.I used Cento Passato SM Bottled tomatoes,which did not really shine through enough for me and i found to be a little sweet .The cheese was a Queso Hebra mozzarella that I picked up in a local Mexican grocery (salty and dissapointing)The dough is the best I have ever made.A little difficult to handle, but beautiful to touch and manipulate.The underside of the base did not brown.I think my deck was too cold.The coloratin to the top was due to me holding it up to the roof at around 90 seconds.The creamy flavour was amazing and the delicate crispness apparent as my teeth met in the first bite.After retuirning to the crust some minutes later when cold I was able to notice the more mild subtle flavours come through.No tang as such?The crust was more Chewy now and slightly crisper.This is a new begining for me after years of searching.a special Thank You to Marco.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Online scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2005, 04:35:23 PM »
David, I am so proud to be the first one the forum to be able to freak out about your pizza.  I really thought these were professional pictures from a professionally run Neapolitan style pizzeria.  I am so happy Marco's recipe has served you so well.  I consider myself very fortunate to have these cultures, and even a basic understanding of how to make this ancient style of pizza.  I just wish I had your oven!!!!!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 04:40:48 PM by scott r »

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2005, 04:56:22 PM »
Many thanks Scott.I've got a long way to go,but today it proved to me that I'm so much closer to attaining my goals.(and opening my Pizzeria ;)I've spent many trips to Italy and visited many Pizzerias worldwide and have been disappointed many more than I've been pleased,even in Italy.All the hype over the last few years over different Pizzerias here in the US has also led to more dissapointment (though I've yet to visit A16 and Bianco) from the arrival of the Pizza Police,Naples 45,Picasso's,Da Ciro's etc.etc etc.
Marco led me in the right direction the last time I was in London,we were on the same wavelength,so I really believed in his advice.I can hardly contain my excitement as to what this has unlocked for me.Ischia will be a new venture.Follow that dream...........
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2005, 06:13:34 PM »
Looks great, David. Congrats! What kind of oven are you using?

Bill/SFNM

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2005, 06:30:31 PM »
David

You are very welcome. I believe you are on the right direction.

It was also good to point out that our coversations on pizza started way before meeting on this forum...

Ciao

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2005, 06:33:53 PM »
I just built it myself.42"Dia Dome H,20"Still got the stucco to do and a little work on the chimney.But it's getting there!I followed the Pompeii oven directions on the Forno Bravo website and adjusted them slightly.it's the first one I've ever done so it will be a learning curve.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2005, 06:44:36 PM »
David, that's a beaut! Very professional. You've got plenty of room in there for a few pies at a time. One is all I can handle for now. Maybe someday. I'm still too much of a klutz.

 

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2005, 07:00:52 PM »
Cheers Bill.I know i will have regrets about things (20"Dome H. etc) but I also know the NEXT one will be better.I did it as a personal challenge as I've never laid a brick before,but also for the belief that I could never get close to what I personally wanted with my domestic oven.I have waited years to do this and when I just recently got my own home it was on the top of my list!It will be a while before I'm juggling six pies around with this delicate dough though ,I can assure you.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market