Author Topic: Marco's Sourdough Pizza  (Read 28680 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2005, 12:31:34 PM »
xxx
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:21:09 PM by pizzanapoletana »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2005, 03:42:11 PM »
Marco: Thank you for clarifying the condition of the Caputo 00 dough during the two time periods. In my case, the two periods didn't mean as much since I was making single dough ball sizes. To refresh my recollection on the entire dough formation process, today I went back and reread all your old posts on the subject. That turned out to be a very productive exercise since it helped me pull a lots of odds and ends together and put things into better context, particularly in light of my own research in this area over the last few months. One thing I wondered about after rereading your posts is how do you personally refresh your starters and how often do you do it? And how frequently do you use your starters to make doughs? And, finally, is it necessary (as opposed to desirable) to periodically recreate a starter? By this, I mean to take say, a tablespoon of the existing starter, add flour and water to it, let the mixture work for several hours, and then repeat the process again, and, once the "new" starter is completed and functional, throw away the rest of the original starter. I know that this process is sometimes used to refresh a starter that has problems, but wasn't sure whether it should be done on a normal, routine basis.

Sante Fe Bill: I too wondered about the elevation effects in your recent experiment. Also, I wondered whether your temperatures around Sante Fe are starting to rise, having the effect of accelerating the fermentation/ripening process and making the dough rise a bit too much. Here in Texas it has been very hot, with high room temperatures. Marco says 64.4-68 degrees F is the desired room temperature range. Apart from finding a way to cool down a little space to place my dough, I suppose I could counteract the high room temperature effects by increasing the salt levels to slow down the fermentation process (maybe adding the salt last to minimize effects on the gluten and enzymes), but that doesn't seem to be all that inviting an approach. I'll be interested in following your progress as you continue to experiment with your starters as it warms up there also.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 12, 2005, 03:50:54 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2005, 04:08:27 PM »
Marco: One thing I wondered about after rereading your posts is how do you personally refresh your starters and how often do you do it? And how frequently do you use your starters to make doughs? And, finally, is it necessary (as opposed to desirable) to periodically recreate a starter? Peter

-I have two working starters at the moment. I make breads 3-4 times a week, and about 6 hours before making the bread, I refresh it straight from the fridge. each starter doesn't spend more then 3 days without refreshing. In a professional enviroment (e.g. pizzeria) I would not put the starter in the fridge and I would refresh them every 12 hours (changing refreshing technique).

-What you are talking about are washes. I would only do it if the culture become to acid. It does happen at times to the liquid ones when I go on holiday for about 2 weeks, but it has not been necessary for the dough-lconsistency one (which I use more often for pizza making).

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2005, 04:08:30 PM »
Also, I wondered whether your temperatures around Santa Fe are starting to rise, having the effect of accelerating the fermentation/ripening process and making the dough rise a bit too much.

Peter,

The weather has not been hot during the past few weeks. Right now it is 67F in my kitchen.

I still have a long way to go to get a handle on how these starters behave. For example, I pulled the Camaldoli out of the refrigerator this morning, fed it, and it became fully active twice as fast as before. Boy, it  smells great. I'm certain that many factors will make my experiences up here very different from yours in Texas and Marco's in London and others at sea level. We've talked about the lower atmospheric pressure increasing the effect of the yeasties. I think the lack of oxygen in the air could also slow down the metabolism of some of the microbes.  Gluten formation also may be affected since normally I have to knead things much longer than directions specify.

I think a good goal will be to get a reliable procedure for storing and activating the starter so that my experiments have a stable baseline. Got to keep in mind that the starter is a living, dynamic, complex entity that I need to get to know well in order to control and use most effectively.

Right now I am mixing up a batch of pizza bianca dough to see how it does with natural starter.




Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza Dough Management
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2005, 10:17:00 AM »
Marco,
You said that your Dough was good for use for up to 24 Hrs after the room temp.fermentation.Is this while keeping it at room temp. or does it then need to be refrigerated to maintain it?Thanks
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2005, 01:31:23 PM »
David

I never say that (or at least meant to say that). I do not know which post you are refering to but if I make a dough to be used  after 22 hours, it can last from that point to another 4-5 hours. If I think that some of the dough ball won't be used, then I would put them in the fridge to be used for lounch next morning (this only in a professional setting).

Ciao

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2005, 02:01:55 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1027.msg9161.html#msg9161

It was this message that I was reading Marco,so I apologise that I misunderstood you.I don't have room in my Refrigerator for all my experiments!!!Ciao,
                                                                   David
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Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2005, 02:26:29 PM »
O.K. so today was showtime.Regardless that today it felt like a 100degrees outside at lunchtime,my oven was complete(well almost!) and my Camaldoli starter has peaked yesterday.I followed Marco's recipe but increased the Caputo to 1700g.I used Cento Passato SM Bottled tomatoes,which did not really shine through enough for me and i found to be a little sweet .The cheese was a Queso Hebra mozzarella that I picked up in a local Mexican grocery (salty and dissapointing)The dough is the best I have ever made.A little difficult to handle, but beautiful to touch and manipulate.The underside of the base did not brown.I think my deck was too cold.The coloratin to the top was due to me holding it up to the roof at around 90 seconds.The creamy flavour was amazing and the delicate crispness apparent as my teeth met in the first bite.After retuirning to the crust some minutes later when cold I was able to notice the more mild subtle flavours come through.No tang as such?The crust was more Chewy now and slightly crisper.This is a new begining for me after years of searching.a special Thank You to Marco.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2005, 04:35:23 PM »
David, I am so proud to be the first one the forum to be able to freak out about your pizza.  I really thought these were professional pictures from a professionally run Neapolitan style pizzeria.  I am so happy Marco's recipe has served you so well.  I consider myself very fortunate to have these cultures, and even a basic understanding of how to make this ancient style of pizza.  I just wish I had your oven!!!!!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 04:40:48 PM by scott r »


Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2005, 04:56:22 PM »
Many thanks Scott.I've got a long way to go,but today it proved to me that I'm so much closer to attaining my goals.(and opening my Pizzeria ;)I've spent many trips to Italy and visited many Pizzerias worldwide and have been disappointed many more than I've been pleased,even in Italy.All the hype over the last few years over different Pizzerias here in the US has also led to more dissapointment (though I've yet to visit A16 and Bianco) from the arrival of the Pizza Police,Naples 45,Picasso's,Da Ciro's etc.etc etc.
Marco led me in the right direction the last time I was in London,we were on the same wavelength,so I really believed in his advice.I can hardly contain my excitement as to what this has unlocked for me.Ischia will be a new venture.Follow that dream...........
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2005, 06:13:34 PM »
Looks great, David. Congrats! What kind of oven are you using?

Bill/SFNM

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2005, 06:30:31 PM »
David

You are very welcome. I believe you are on the right direction.

It was also good to point out that our coversations on pizza started way before meeting on this forum...

Ciao

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2005, 06:33:53 PM »
I just built it myself.42"Dia Dome H,20"Still got the stucco to do and a little work on the chimney.But it's getting there!I followed the Pompeii oven directions on the Forno Bravo website and adjusted them slightly.it's the first one I've ever done so it will be a learning curve.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2005, 06:44:36 PM »
David, that's a beaut! Very professional. You've got plenty of room in there for a few pies at a time. One is all I can handle for now. Maybe someday. I'm still too much of a klutz.

 

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2005, 07:00:52 PM »
Cheers Bill.I know i will have regrets about things (20"Dome H. etc) but I also know the NEXT one will be better.I did it as a personal challenge as I've never laid a brick before,but also for the belief that I could never get close to what I personally wanted with my domestic oven.I have waited years to do this and when I just recently got my own home it was on the top of my list!It will be a while before I'm juggling six pies around with this delicate dough though ,I can assure you.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2005, 09:30:16 AM »
Marco,

I, too, would like to express my gratitude to you, especially for the Italian cultures you have collected and made available. I've only just started to use them, but they have had an immediate and dramatic effect on the quality of my pizzas. Thank you!

I think it is so cool that you have taken little creatures from your home and spread them around the world. I know that true Neapolitan pizza is much more than just a procedure. It is a hundreds-years old tradition that is treasured as an important part of the culture of Naples. It is exciting in my own way to spread that tradition to this little corner of the world.

This weekend I served pizzas using your Camaldoli culture to friends and they really appreciated the story I told about the origens of true Neapolitan pizza and how I was trying to do justice to the tradition with my humble efforts: using flour that had been milled in Naples and baked in a wood oven made of Italian bricks. But they were especially fascinated to be eating pizza leavened with the culture that was collected by a pizza lover on Camaldoli hill. It really made for a special occasion.

Bill/SFNM

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2005, 09:42:01 AM »
Bill,
     this is deviating a little,but i wondered if you had used the Camaldoli to try the Pane Cafone recipe?As an avid Baker,did you get to try Pane Cafone in Naples?I know nothing about Bread Baking (though I plan to change that),as i have concentrated all my thoughts on pizza.The reason I ask is that I have absolutely no idea what to aim for as far as texture,density,crust etc.I went ahead and tried it and the crust was bulletproof!I'm in a rush now,but will post some photos laterAny advice is appreciated.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2005, 12:32:08 PM »
David,

I haven't tried the Cafone yet. I've only done pizzas, focaccia, and pizza bianca. I'm preparing the Ischia starter right now and was planning to make my standard baguette recipe, but I'll try the Cafone instead.  I'm not sure what to expect from the recipes that come with the cultures since they call for a lot more starter (50%) than I have been using so far (~9%).  No idea why your crust was "bulletproof". Overcooked?

I've eaten all kinds of wondrous breads in Southern Italy and never really bothered to ask what the name was. I was too busy enjoying it, didn't think I'd ever find the same thing back home, and no hope of reproducing it. But maybe that will change. A professional baker friend of mine recommended the book, "The Italian Baker" by Carol Field. I've ordered it and it should arrive in the day or so. It'll be interesting to see what results I get with this book.

I'll post my results for my Cafone tomorrow in the Artesian bread thread.

Bill/SFNM

Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2005, 04:36:54 AM »
Tonight was a good pie night.  This dough used Marco's wonderful recipe with exclusively Ischica starter, non iodized sea salt, and Caputo pizzeria flour.  It was subjected to a 68 degree long slow rise for between 16 and 26 hours depending on the pie. I changed the recipe a little to have a 63% hydration. 

There was a tiny bit of toughness present that should not have been there.  I am still playing around with the hydration, mixing times, etc.  It did seem that the pies had a better  texture with the doughs that were used later. Eventually I might go back to adding oil, which worked great to soften the crust texture in the past.  First I want to check out every option I can with the mixing/handling technique and recipe to get the texture as close as I can.  Then I will use my crutch if I have to.

At about 25 hours I noticed the sour flavor to start poking through a little more than I would like.  Before that the pies had such an amazing flavor that it almost makes me want to abandon commercial yeast for good.  I do have a batch of Raquel doughs in the fridge right now with no commercial yeast at all.  I can't wait to find out how they taste.  Up until now, I have been adding a tiny amount of IDY when I make that recipe.

This is sick, but I am now wishing I had a 900 degree oven.  The maytag gets close, but it's max ambient temperature is about 800 unless I want to wait around all night to let it preheat.   It really slows it's climb up in temperature after 825.  The problem is that I have to keep the stone about 100 degrees less than the ambient temp, so this baby is still not quite as hot as what I would like.  On the other hand, the oven does seem perfect for New York Style pies. 

I must say that in the end these were some KILLER pies, and like many other wives on the forum have requested, mine now wants me to stick to Neapolitan pies for good.  At this point there is no question that I will be building an outdoor oven some day to keep her happy.   You know the oven isn't really for me right??
 
All I need is a house with a yard, and I am going to be all set!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 05:30:09 AM by scott r »

Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2005, 04:40:06 AM »
all of these pies had a 25 minute knead in the electrolux.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 04:45:43 AM by scott r »

Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2005, 04:42:36 AM »
Tomorrow I will try a 15 min knead to see what happens to the texture.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 05:20:18 AM by scott r »

Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2005, 08:16:42 AM »
Very  good Scott.With a wood fired oven  you'l be laughing.I think you will be even happier experimenting with the mix times/technique now,knowing that the ingredients are giving you what you want.Did you brush it with anything to get that color?
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Offline David

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2005, 08:42:33 AM »
Forgot to ask-do you prefer the Ischia or Camaldoli?Probably it's too early to decide/All I can say is that I just went to the kitchen to feed my "Baby" and every time I open the lid on that canister I can't resist putting my nose up to it and inhaling!It's  Ambrosia!
I'm still saving my Ischia for another day...........I find it interesting that only very few of the old Pizzerias in Naples continue to use a Crescito (If I understood Marcos comment correctly?)By that I read it to imply that Da MicheIe and most others are using a beer yeast. I guess that it is just easier and more predictable when working on a commercial volume level to rely on IDY ADY Brewers yeasts.You better take a laptop to Naples to keep track of your tasting sessions.
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Offline scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2005, 01:38:09 PM »
David, Thanks for your comments.  I have to admit I had reservations putting these pics up after seeing your first attempt with the outdoor brick oven. 

I did not brush the pies with oil.  I did use a small amount of oil in the containers once I separated the dougballs after the first bulk rise.  I have found that if I oil the containers, I can mess with the dough less to get it out onto my work surface.   

If I have read Marco's posts correctly De Michele is one of the special places in Naples that still uses a starter. 

I only have the Ischia.  I read on a post of Marco's that it can have a less sour taste for long extended ferments, so I decided to just stick with it.  I didn't want to have two strains going that might cross contaminate, and potentially weaken one or the other.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2005, 01:58:13 PM »
I didn't want to have two strains going that might cross contaminate, and potentially weaken one or the other.

Scott:

Great looking pies!

I've got 5 different starters listed as dependents on my tax return. I don't think cross-contamination is a problem if you only work with one at a time.

My take so far on the Camaldoli vs. the Ischia: Ischia has more lift; ferment for Ischia has been taking about 12 hours and Camaldoli over 24 hours. The Ischia is more sour. The Camaldoli has a milder and more complex flavor.  But I've only refreshed each of these a few times, so it is probably too early to tell.

Camaldoli will be used for pizzas on Sunday. Can't wait.



 

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