Author Topic: Marco's Sourdough Pizza  (Read 26001 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2005, 09:30:16 AM »
Marco,

I, too, would like to express my gratitude to you, especially for the Italian cultures you have collected and made available. I've only just started to use them, but they have had an immediate and dramatic effect on the quality of my pizzas. Thank you!

I think it is so cool that you have taken little creatures from your home and spread them around the world. I know that true Neapolitan pizza is much more than just a procedure. It is a hundreds-years old tradition that is treasured as an important part of the culture of Naples. It is exciting in my own way to spread that tradition to this little corner of the world.

This weekend I served pizzas using your Camaldoli culture to friends and they really appreciated the story I told about the origens of true Neapolitan pizza and how I was trying to do justice to the tradition with my humble efforts: using flour that had been milled in Naples and baked in a wood oven made of Italian bricks. But they were especially fascinated to be eating pizza leavened with the culture that was collected by a pizza lover on Camaldoli hill. It really made for a special occasion.

Bill/SFNM


Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2005, 09:42:01 AM »
Bill,
     this is deviating a little,but i wondered if you had used the Camaldoli to try the Pane Cafone recipe?As an avid Baker,did you get to try Pane Cafone in Naples?I know nothing about Bread Baking (though I plan to change that),as i have concentrated all my thoughts on pizza.The reason I ask is that I have absolutely no idea what to aim for as far as texture,density,crust etc.I went ahead and tried it and the crust was bulletproof!I'm in a rush now,but will post some photos laterAny advice is appreciated.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2005, 12:32:08 PM »
David,

I haven't tried the Cafone yet. I've only done pizzas, focaccia, and pizza bianca. I'm preparing the Ischia starter right now and was planning to make my standard baguette recipe, but I'll try the Cafone instead.  I'm not sure what to expect from the recipes that come with the cultures since they call for a lot more starter (50%) than I have been using so far (~9%).  No idea why your crust was "bulletproof". Overcooked?

I've eaten all kinds of wondrous breads in Southern Italy and never really bothered to ask what the name was. I was too busy enjoying it, didn't think I'd ever find the same thing back home, and no hope of reproducing it. But maybe that will change. A professional baker friend of mine recommended the book, "The Italian Baker" by Carol Field. I've ordered it and it should arrive in the day or so. It'll be interesting to see what results I get with this book.

I'll post my results for my Cafone tomorrow in the Artesian bread thread.

Bill/SFNM

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2005, 04:36:54 AM »
Tonight was a good pie night.  This dough used Marco's wonderful recipe with exclusively Ischica starter, non iodized sea salt, and Caputo pizzeria flour.  It was subjected to a 68 degree long slow rise for between 16 and 26 hours depending on the pie. I changed the recipe a little to have a 63% hydration. 

There was a tiny bit of toughness present that should not have been there.  I am still playing around with the hydration, mixing times, etc.  It did seem that the pies had a better  texture with the doughs that were used later. Eventually I might go back to adding oil, which worked great to soften the crust texture in the past.  First I want to check out every option I can with the mixing/handling technique and recipe to get the texture as close as I can.  Then I will use my crutch if I have to.

At about 25 hours I noticed the sour flavor to start poking through a little more than I would like.  Before that the pies had such an amazing flavor that it almost makes me want to abandon commercial yeast for good.  I do have a batch of Raquel doughs in the fridge right now with no commercial yeast at all.  I can't wait to find out how they taste.  Up until now, I have been adding a tiny amount of IDY when I make that recipe.

This is sick, but I am now wishing I had a 900 degree oven.  The maytag gets close, but it's max ambient temperature is about 800 unless I want to wait around all night to let it preheat.   It really slows it's climb up in temperature after 825.  The problem is that I have to keep the stone about 100 degrees less than the ambient temp, so this baby is still not quite as hot as what I would like.  On the other hand, the oven does seem perfect for New York Style pies. 

I must say that in the end these were some KILLER pies, and like many other wives on the forum have requested, mine now wants me to stick to Neapolitan pies for good.  At this point there is no question that I will be building an outdoor oven some day to keep her happy.   You know the oven isn't really for me right??
 
All I need is a house with a yard, and I am going to be all set!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 05:30:09 AM by scott r »

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2005, 04:40:06 AM »
all of these pies had a 25 minute knead in the electrolux.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 04:45:43 AM by scott r »

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2005, 04:42:36 AM »
Tomorrow I will try a 15 min knead to see what happens to the texture.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 05:20:18 AM by scott r »

Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2005, 08:16:42 AM »
Very  good Scott.With a wood fired oven  you'l be laughing.I think you will be even happier experimenting with the mix times/technique now,knowing that the ingredients are giving you what you want.Did you brush it with anything to get that color?
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2005, 08:42:33 AM »
Forgot to ask-do you prefer the Ischia or Camaldoli?Probably it's too early to decide/All I can say is that I just went to the kitchen to feed my "Baby" and every time I open the lid on that canister I can't resist putting my nose up to it and inhaling!It's  Ambrosia!
I'm still saving my Ischia for another day...........I find it interesting that only very few of the old Pizzerias in Naples continue to use a Crescito (If I understood Marcos comment correctly?)By that I read it to imply that Da MicheIe and most others are using a beer yeast. I guess that it is just easier and more predictable when working on a commercial volume level to rely on IDY ADY Brewers yeasts.You better take a laptop to Naples to keep track of your tasting sessions.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2005, 01:38:09 PM »
David, Thanks for your comments.  I have to admit I had reservations putting these pics up after seeing your first attempt with the outdoor brick oven. 

I did not brush the pies with oil.  I did use a small amount of oil in the containers once I separated the dougballs after the first bulk rise.  I have found that if I oil the containers, I can mess with the dough less to get it out onto my work surface.   

If I have read Marco's posts correctly De Michele is one of the special places in Naples that still uses a starter. 

I only have the Ischia.  I read on a post of Marco's that it can have a less sour taste for long extended ferments, so I decided to just stick with it.  I didn't want to have two strains going that might cross contaminate, and potentially weaken one or the other.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2005, 01:58:13 PM »
I didn't want to have two strains going that might cross contaminate, and potentially weaken one or the other.

Scott:

Great looking pies!

I've got 5 different starters listed as dependents on my tax return. I don't think cross-contamination is a problem if you only work with one at a time.

My take so far on the Camaldoli vs. the Ischia: Ischia has more lift; ferment for Ischia has been taking about 12 hours and Camaldoli over 24 hours. The Ischia is more sour. The Camaldoli has a milder and more complex flavor.  But I've only refreshed each of these a few times, so it is probably too early to tell.

Camaldoli will be used for pizzas on Sunday. Can't wait.



Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2005, 02:33:35 PM »
Bill, thanks for the compliment, and please keep us posted on the sourness/flavor of the two starters compared to each other.  I thought Marco was saying that the Ischia was less sour, but I think he is using some kind of translation software that could mess things up. 

Also, could you post some pics with a description of how the Santos works sometime.  I really want to know more about these fork mixers, but everybody in the pizza business I ask has no idea what they are.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2005, 06:41:42 PM »
Also, could you post some pics with a description of how the Santos works sometime.  I really want to know more about these fork mixers, but everybody in the pizza business I ask has no idea what they are.

Scott,

Alas, the Santos is backorded until the end of the month. I can't wait to try it out on my standard bread and pizza recipes to see what kind of difference it makes. Most bakeries I've seen in here in the U.S. seem enamored with Hobart-type mixers. One thing for sure: the action of the dough in fork mixers is very different which I have to believe will lead to difference results. Will it be better? We'll see. I'll post photos as soon as I get my grubby hands on my new mixer.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 06:58:39 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2005, 01:56:41 AM »
I tried a 15 minute knead with the caputo, and the crust was exactly the same as the long knead.  I guess I will try a 5 minute next.

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2005, 11:22:16 AM »
The Ischia is more "acid-lactic" tasting then the Camaldoli. The Camaldoli, at the same level of activity, is far more quicker and produce a more "mild" taste, as far as you do not let it go for too long, otherwise the dough actually turn bitter.

I am not using a translator software. My mother tongue is Italian, but I remember to have never said that the Ischia was less sour.

Ciao

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2005, 01:02:51 PM »
Marco, thanks for clearing up my confusion.  Your English is excellent, I just thought I  remembered reading some posts where you said that the translation software for the site was incorrect.

When you say a starter is quick, you mean that a dough made with it will be properly fermented sooner, right?   Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I just want to make sure.  I have found your recipe with the ischia starter to be perfect at 24 hours if I keep the dough somewhat cool.  Could you give me a rough idea what to expect with the camaldoli?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 01:19:41 PM by scott r »

Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2005, 01:19:07 PM »
I mean that it rises sooner and however you will need to aim for at least 12 hours to have good results using a Crisceto.

Ciao

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2005, 07:36:03 PM »
How do I really know my Camaldoli is the same as yours? I had to wash mine after an initial contamination. What developed after the washing and much dilution of the original mix has a wonderful taste, but can I really be sure what it is? Maybe it contains microbes from the air or the flour or just a fortuitous combination of who knows what that makes great pizza. Perhaps we are comparing apples and oranges when we try to compare our experiences with these starters. I just don't know, but I sure do love what I call Camaldoli.


Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3075
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2005, 11:10:31 AM »
Many times my schedule makes it hard to do the cutting/reshaping phase of Marco's recipe, and I would love to skip this step.  I am wondering if anyone knows why it is important to do this second stage of fermentation in individual balls.  I was assuming that this step gave the gluten time to relax before shaping.  Yesterday a batch of dough  I made went untouched for 24 hours in until I used it.  I was very gentle with the dough when I pinched it off so that I would not tighten the gluten. If anything, I figured that just the part that was pinched would suffer.  The dough did turn out different everywhere on the pizza.  It seemed harder to shape, and tougher than my last five or so batches.  I am just wondering if this is a normal outcome?  I know some batches just turn out better than others, so I don't want to base an opinion on bad luck.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2005, 06:52:25 PM »
Marco,

Today I am working on Neapolitan dough using the Santos mixer. I haven't been able to use your formula in the past since my mixer preferred a much wetter dough. So today with the Santos I was finally able to use something closer to your formula: 61% water, 2.7% salt, and 5% Camaldoli starter (I know you use less than 2% starter, but I am still not that confident). The dough was MUCH stiffer than I am used to, so I a thinking that  perhaps I over-kneaded it, but won;t know for sure until I bake it tomorrow. I went back to the archives and my notes and wonder if this is the correct kneading regimen:

1 minute mix
20 minute rest
10 minute mix
5 minute rest
20 minute riposo
1 turn of the dough around the mixer

I would be most grateful for any tips you could give me about kneading, especially what cues you look for to determine if you have added enough flour and how you know the dough has been sufficiently kneaded. Thank you very much.

Bill/SFNM


Offline pizzanapoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 958
  • Location: London -UK
  • Pizza Napoletana as it was made in 1730!
    • Forno Napoletano - Pizza Ovens
Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2005, 08:32:58 AM »
Bill

You should never stop and mix again all the times you did unless you are doing a "pizza romana dough".

The mixing should be continuous and only when the dough comes together, there will be the 15-20 mins riposo and then 1 last complete bowl turn.

The quantities I gave in the past where only indicative. If you are already used to a wetter dough (with Caputo flour, as well as 61% hydration with a strong American flour is not the same as 61% with the Caputo)), then there is no point to go stiffer.
My preferred dough is between x hydration, but bare in mind that I don't measure the flour usually. At times I measure an amount of flour, then I used as much as I like to reach my dough point, and then I measure the one left to know how much I have use from it.
One more point to consider is the water you are using. I used filtered (by Brita's filter) tap water, which is quite soft. An harder water will require less flour.

It is very difficult to explain  how to recognize my dough point. I just happen to know by experience. I could tell you that when the dough start coming away from the side of the bowl, but still stick to the bottom, that is a good sign.

Trust me , I am not trying to play games. Just think that after 7 months I was trying to explain my dough criteria to one of your countryman, I had to fly there and show it to him to finally understand each other.


Ciao
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:14:43 PM by pizzanapoletana »