Author Topic: Whey as a Way  (Read 728 times)

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Offline epizzazz

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Whey as a Way
« on: June 04, 2011, 06:31:12 AM »
Hi, everyone. This is my first posting outside of new member intro.
Recently I've been making a lot of Greek yogurt(For those who might not be familiar with the term, it's just plain yogurt strained in cheesecloth). Aside from making tasty ricotta substitute on my pizzas, I've been thinking of incorporating the drained out whey(Dunno what else to call it) into the dough. It smells pleasantly floral in my opinion and would make a great flavorful addition to my pizzas.
I've been told that any given sourdough culture contains microorganisms including some form of yeasts and lactobacilli in symbiosis. Put into dough, the yeast goes to work breaking down glucose to crank up the rise, while the lactobacillus works more on the flavor and aroma part of the equation. I've been wondering, if sourdough culture or any other dough for that matter is truly home to harmonious symbiosis of yeasts and lactobacilli, why do we only feed it flour and water, which is only glucose in water? As far as the lactobacillus is concerned, it does little to aid its livelyhood. I maybe oversimplifying things, but lactobacilli requires lactose to feed, no?
I know. Feeding whey or any dairy to your sourdough culture kept at room temperature would very quickly spoil and oblierate the whole thing and would make a great addition to your compost heap. Appalling! Well then, how about replacing some of the water in the final dough with this liquid whey as a way to kick start the lactobacilli and hence produce more flavorful final crust? However, before this idea or wishful thinking comes to life, some issues need worked out with the help of vast knowledge base of forum members.

Now, my learnings from the forum and beyond tells me that whey contains enzymes or proteins that interferes with gluten development or 'attacks' gluten so much so that it successfully negates the rise produced by yeast activities. And to get around this, whey has to be boiled to put a permanent stop to the said enzyme or protein. Does any of this hold any water?
Consequently, if whey were to be boiled, wouldn't it just about kill every lactobacilli, which along with their friends in the sourdough culture or preferment would have gone to work to produce more of that nice pleasant fragrance?
And lastly, are there any things in this whey that might cause issues with other ingredients in the dough or present a potential health risk, and hence must be removed or cause to avoid the use of whey altogether?
Please share your thoughts.

Nick
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 07:47:12 AM by epizzazz »


Offline epizzazz

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Re: Whey as a Way
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2011, 07:04:13 AM »
Just as a reference, here's how I have been making my dough so far.

Filtered Water   357
Sifted Flour   550
Preferment   101
Salt            12
Total               1,020
    
Preparation
① Prepare filtered water. Sift the flour.
② In the work bowl of your stand mixer, pour in the water, then the flour and sourdough culture, and the salt.
③ With a paddle attachment, mix on low for 2 minutes to incorporate everything.
④ Switch to dough hook, and mix on mid to mid-high for 6 more minutes.
⑤ Take the dough out of the bowl and pour onto a well-oiled work surface. Cover with bowl or plastic wrap, and let rest for 15 minutes.
⑥ At the end of 15 minutes, remove the cover. With wet or well-oiled hands, stretch & fold 8 times. Repeat 3 more times at 15 minute interval.
⑦ After last stretch & fold session, cover and let rest for 20 minutes.
⑧ Remove the cover. Cut and shape into balls.
⑨ Place the balls in well-oiled airtight containers individually.
⑩ Cover and refrigerate for at least 24 hours.
⑪ Before stretching to form a circle crust, make sure the dough balls are brought to room temperature for at least one hour.

I shoot both the preferment and final dough to 65% hydration. I use regular bread flour and cold water. Not sure what temp. Just fairly cold to the touch. I take a pitcher and frigerate overnight when I can. I use table salt. I do not add EVOO to the dough, but I oil the work surface, the containers, and sometimes hands, so eventually about one to two teaspoonfuls make it in the dough I think.I use no sugar.
I DON'T autolyse, but there are many rest periods in between. I try to handle the dough as little as possible. Just pinching tips or edges of dough while stretching & folding.

Nick
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 07:36:18 AM by epizzazz »

Offline norma427

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Re: Whey as a Way
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 09:29:34 AM »
epizzazz,

I did try whey (from making mozzarella) in dough a long while ago, but never took pictures of that pizza.  I also tried  milk kefir in two different ways (real milk kefir and cultured milk kefir from a packet) in different preferment doughs.  Those doughs could sit at room temperature and nothing bad happened to them.  If that is anything about what you are looking for let me know and I can provide the links.  My friend Steve (Ev) did try buttermilk (about like whey) from making butter and that also worked well in his pizzas.  I can also provide that link if you are interested.

Norma
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Offline epizzazz

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Re: Whey as a Way
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 10:04:24 AM »
Absolutely, Norma.
A few questions though. I don't suppose you boiled the whey before introducing it to final dough, did you? If you could remember did it look and feel as though you didn't get enough your normal leavening or rise on account of whey? Was it denser or lighter? Chewier or softer? What was the flavor like? Did it impart distinct milky aroma into the final crust? I know most bakers at one point or another experiment with whey or milk. I'm interested to know what impact it might have had on structure and flavor.

Nick

Offline norma427

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Re: Whey as a Way
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 10:47:46 AM »
Absolutely, Norma.
A few questions though. I don't suppose you boiled the whey before introducing it to final dough, did you? If you could remember did it look and feel as though you didn't get enough your normal leavening or rise on account of whey? Was it denser or lighter? Chewier or softer? What was the flavor like? Did it impart distinct milky aroma into the final crust? I know most bakers at one point or another experiment with whey or milk. I'm interested to know what impact it might have had on structure and flavor.

Nick


Nick,

When I used whey, I didnít use it to leaven the dough. The whey I used and Steve used wasnít boiled. I did use milk kefir to leaven many doughs.  When I used milk kefir to leaven dough, it did leaven dough slower than using other starters,  IDY or ADY.  You can see if you read the below threads and posts what whey, bakerís grade dairy whey, or milk kefir from grains, or milk kefir from packets did or didnít do to the doughs.

This are the link about trying milk kefir in two different ways, if you are interesting in reading though the threads. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13178.0.html and
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.0.html  I also tried dried dairy whey in the preferment Lehmann dough at Reply 267 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg127126.html#msg127126 I even tried dairy whey in a Pizzarium dough at Reply441 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg126280.html#msg126280
Steveís (Ev) buttermilk pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13207.0.html

Peter also referenced using buttermilk in his post at Reply 109 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136471.html#msg136471
and at Reply 64 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6674.msg58943.html#msg58943 and at PMQTT http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=24428#24428

From Ron (Ronzo) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13246.0.html

Crider also posted about using Dairy whey at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9854.msg90329.html#msg90329

If you are interested that should keep you busy reading for awhile.  :-D If you are interested in knowing what milk or scalded milk did or didnít do to dough there are also links for that.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 10:50:34 AM by norma427 »
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Offline epizzazz

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Re: Whey as a Way
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 01:02:02 PM »
Norma,
Your kefir pies look great. Lots of large holes. I can hardly tell the difference from your other sourdough crusts, but  they look somewhat more moist or wetter, were they? What about the flavor profile? Were there major differences worthy of the extra effort? Now, the dried whey; that had to have been heat treated, yes? That means the enzymes or protein that messes with gluten would have been cemented while the lactose was still there to feed.
I think Steve's experiment is probably the direction I'd have steered toward if I were to use buttermilk instead of my Greek yogurt whey. Directly replacing a portion or the entirety of water with buttermilk or in my case Greek yogurt whey. One of the reasons I thought Greek yogurt whey would be great was that it's completely clear and transparent by the naked eye. I mean it looks just like freshly poured tap water, perhaps because I strain it wrapped in 4 sheets of cheesecloth? So I think there's little milk solids there. I'd be surprised, if there were any more than 3%.
Anyways, Steve's experiment with buttermilk more or less confirms the suspicion that certain protein or enzyme in dairy interferes with gluten development and overall leavening of the dough. The final crusts do look a little dense or stiff, that is not to say that they are poorly made pies. They do look terrific. If I may pose a question for Steve though, did somewhat of that buttery sourness characteristic of buttermilk remain in the final crust?

Thanks,
Nick
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 01:06:37 PM by epizzazz »

Offline norma427

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Re: Whey as a Way
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 02:12:10 PM »
Norma,
Your kefir pies look great. Lots of large holes. I can hardly tell the difference from your other sourdough crusts, but  they look somewhat more moist or wetter, were they? What about the flavor profile? Were there major differences worthy of the extra effort? Now, the dried whey; that had to have been heat treated, yes? That means the enzymes or protein that messes with gluten would have been cemented while the lactose was still there to feed.
I think Steve's experiment is probably the direction I'd have steered toward if I were to use buttermilk instead of my Greek yogurt whey. Directly replacing a portion or the entirety of water with buttermilk or in my case Greek yogurt whey. One of the reasons I thought Greek yogurt whey would be great was that it's completely clear and transparent by the naked eye. I mean it looks just like freshly poured tap water, perhaps because I strain it wrapped in 4 sheets of cheesecloth? So I think there's little milk solids there. I'd be surprised, if there were any more than 3%.
Anyways, Steve's experiment with buttermilk more or less confirms the suspicion that certain protein or enzyme in dairy interferes with gluten development and overall leavening of the dough. The final crusts do look a little dense or stiff, that is not to say that they are poorly made pies. They do look terrific. If I may pose a question for Steve though, did somewhat of that buttery sourness characteristic of buttermilk remain in the final crust?

Thanks,
Nick

Nick,

Thanks for saying the milk kefir pies looked great.  The milk kefir crusts are about like other sourdough crusts, at least in my opinion.  The flavor profile is also like a sourdough crust in my opinion.  In my opinion using any sourdough or milk kefir is worth it in my opinion.  It just adds another flavor profile to the crust.  The reason I stopped with experimenting with the milk kefir (with real grains) for market, is because I never would have been approved by my the food inspectors to use the milk kefir from the real grains, and also my market temperatures are all over the place.  To be able to market a natural leaved dough at market would be really hard, unless there were more consistent temperatures.

I donít know if the all dried dairy wheys are heat treated.  I can buy dairy whey at my local Country Store and am not sure if it is heat treated, but donít think it is.  Most bakerís do use heat treated dairy whey.

You should try an experiment with using your Greek yogurt whey.  As far as I know, other members havenít tried that method, that I am aware of.

I donít know if Steve will read this thread, but I will mention it to him on Tuesday.

Norma  
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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