Author Topic: My dough less extensible more elastic over time  (Read 731 times)

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Offline chaspie

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My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« on: December 26, 2014, 11:57:09 PM »
I made four dough balls based on the GB formula, but with some small modifications, for NY style dough.  I made two pizzas after three days fermentation in the refrigerator, and another two pizzas after five days.  The flavor, texture, and balance between tenderness and chewiness of the dough was good on day 3, but those qualities were much improved on day 5.  However, the handling of the dough was far better on day 3 than on day 5. 

On day 3, the dough was quite extensible, and not too elastic.  I could stretch it as I liked, and it would nearly hold it's shape, shrinking only a tiny fraction.  On day 5, it was still extensible, but it took a lot more work to shape it, and then it wouldn't stay put.   It was so elastic that a dough stretched to 14 inches would very quickly shrink to 12.  And there wasn't much I could do about it. 

I really liked all of the sensory characteristics of the dough after the 5 day fermentation, but I greatly preferred the handling characteristics of the dough on day 3.  As I understand elasticity and extensibility, a dough that exhibits more of the former and less of the latter is a stronger dough, and a dough that exhibits less of the former and more of the latter is a weaker dough.  So if that is true, I suppose that what I want is a weaker dough, but one that has the flavor profile of the dough that underwent longer fermentation. 

Four dough balls (bakers percentages to nearest tenths)

792 g   (100%)   KABF
490 g   (61.9%) Water (I ended up adding a couple tablespoons more, so hydration was a little above 62%)
14 g     (1.8%) salt
8 g       (1%) olive oil (regular, not EVOO)
2 g       (0.25%) IDY

The dough handled best at 3 days, tasted best at 5.  How can I get those characteristics in sync (best handling combined with best flavor)?




Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2014, 12:10:57 AM »
Ummmm...less yeast? Kidding, at your amount they were prolly close to being blown @ that extended ferment time.     How long did you mix for chaspie?
Did you reball at any stage?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2014, 09:17:15 AM »
I'd try less yeast first, and if that doesn't work, try KAAP, then maybe both.
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2014, 09:39:48 AM »
I thought that the longer a dough went, the more the gluten can break down and the more it breaks down, the more extensible.  This appears to be the opposite.  Do I have it wrong (at least in typical circumstances?)

Mitch
Mitch

Offline chaspie

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2014, 10:31:08 AM »
Bob, I mixed in a 5 quart 3-speed Hobart mixer on the lowest speed using a dough hook for about 10 minutes.  Half of that time was spent just gathering all the ingredients together into a dough, so it wasn't really working the dough for more than half the time.  I stopped mixing before it passed the windowpane test, but it looked and felt like dough. 

The first two dough balls that I used on day 3 were not reballed.  I reballed the remaining two balls on day 4 because they had gotten quite big and popped the lid off their plastic container.  I handled the dough as gently as possible to deflate and reball.  When I used them the next day, they had nearly filled their containers again (3 cup plastic containers with lids).

By "blown", do you mean over fermented, as in too much yeast or too much time?  In that case, maybe less yeast, like Craig suggested?

Craig, for this same recipe, do you think a 50% reduction of yeast would be too radical?  I could try a 25% reduction and see how that does.  I also have KAAP on hand, but I will try just the yeast reduction first.

Mitch, I don't know the answer, but I would also welcome comment on that by the more knowledgeable.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2014, 11:22:34 AM »
Chuck,

I agree with what Mitch said.

If a fermenting dough is left untouched, eventually the protease enzymes and acids of fermentation will weaken the gluten and cause the dough to become increasingly extensible. But once you play around with the dough after it has fermented, you will tighten the gluten matrix to the point where the dough becomes elastic again. In your case, it sounds like you should reduce the amount of yeast, as others have mentioned, so that you never reach the point where you have to reform the dough balls to the point where you tighten up the gluten matrix.

Peter

Offline wahoo88

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2014, 11:46:09 AM »
I agree with what other have said.  If I have to reball a dough after it has been in the refrigerator for more than a few hours (read: at refrigerator temperature), it will take a long time for that dough to relax back to its original state simply because everything slows down at low temperatures.  With that said, you shouldn't have to rely on reballing to provide enough elasticity to handle.  Maybe back down hydration to 60% if reducing yeast doesn't work?
Dan

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 12:07:59 PM »
Craig, for this same recipe, do you think a 50% reduction of yeast would be too radical?  I could try a 25% reduction and see how that does.  I also have KAAP on hand, but I will try just the yeast reduction first.

I think a 50% reduction will get you in the right general area and a good place to start. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up using even less. Keep daily notes on the progress over the 5 days and tweak as needed.
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Offline chaspie

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2014, 12:20:39 PM »
Peter, thank you for that explanation of dough development. 

Dan, I'll try your suggestion on lowering hydration if backing off the yeast doesn't give me the results I'm after.  I hope I can get there with yeast reduction alone, as the hydration level I'm using with KABF is easy to work with.

Craig, I'll try 50% then.  I'm planning pizza again for next Saturday.  Is there anything I should look for daily in terms of progress besides appearance and expansion of the dough?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 12:22:50 PM by chaspie »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2014, 12:55:07 PM »
A couple things - I think you want to note the general progress so you have an idea how much more or less yeast you want to use next time. You also want to keep an eye on it towards the end - for at least the last 12 hours so you can warm it up if it's not looking like it will be ready when you need it.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2014, 02:19:09 PM »
The progression in handling properties of a normally formulated yeast leavened bread or pizza dough goes something like this;
Tight and very elastic with insufficient fermentation
Extensible and slightly elastic with normal fermentation for the flour and dough formulation (this is the sweet spot)
Moderately tight but very elastic when the dough receives excessive fermentation for the flour and formulation (in baking lingo we call this "bucky")
As fermentation proceeds beyond this point the dough becomes increasingly soft but this can be overcome by reworking (re balling) the dough. When we make product from frozen dough that is beyond its useful (formulated) life we can get another shot at making a pretty decent product from it by reworking the dough. The mechanism at play here is oxidation of the dough, as it is reworked we expose the dough to more oxygen which repairs some of the damage done to the gluten bonds resulting from excessive fermentation, all you need to do then is to wait for the dough to relax once again and have another go at it. This is even done in some pizzerias as a means of salvaging dough that has gotten long in the tooth.
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Offline chaspie

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 02:56:43 PM »
Thank you Craig and Tom. 

Based on your description, Tom, my dough was probably near the sweet spot on day 3, and bucky by day 5.  I perhaps shouldn't have reballed when I did, and then maybe my dough would have been more manageable on day 5. 

I'll see what happens with less yeast.  I'm planning on baking a crust on day 3, with perhaps a bit of sauce, but no cheese or toppings, so I can evaluate extensibility and elasticity while working the dough, and the flavor of the crust without a lot of conflicting flavors.  I'll do the same on day 4 with another ball, and then make a couple of pizzas on day 5.

Offline chaspie

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 09:06:36 PM »
I made the same dough recipe again, four dough balls, except I cut the yeast in half this time. 

Day 3:  I baked one in my Blackstone with no toppings, just the plain dough.  The dough did not appear to have risen much during its three days in the refrigerator.  After 45 minutes resting at room temperature, it was easy to work and shape, and it didn't shrink.  It produced an edible, if somewhat underwhelming flat bread.  It did not brown well at all, but I wonder if that might partially be due to baking it without toppings.  It tended to puff up rather than lie flat on the stone.  My conclusion is that this dough recipe, with the reduced yeast, is not usable after only 3 days of cold development.

Day 4:  I baked another one, this time with a plain sauce and a little cheese (fiore di latte, provolone, scamorza).  The dough didn't look any different than the day 3 dough.  Once again, it was easy to handle, extensible, and not very elastic.  It browned on the edges and bottom much better than the day 3 dough and had a better texture and a little more flavor.  I'd say this dough is good on day 4.

Day 5:  I made a pepperoni pizza with Molinari pepperoni, a plain crushed tomato sauce, fiore di latte, provolone, and scamorza.  The bottom and edge of the crust looked great (by my novice standards).  The crust was fully baked, chewy, yet tender, and the cornicione had pretty well-developed structure.  The dough was extensible, not elastic at all, and had a tendency to tear.  I had trouble spreading it without damaging it.  I liked the flavor and I'd be happy if I could manage a dough like this on a regular basis, but I'd like to avoid the tearing.

Day 6:  I made a pepperoni pizza with the last dough ball.  I used Margherita pepperoni, Red November #2 sauce, provolone, scamorza, and muenster cheeses, red bell peppers, carmelized onions, and jalepenos.  I got carried away on the toppings, I think.  I really had trouble with this dough.  I let it sit out of the fridge for an hour and a half, double the time I intended, and so it was starting to gas up.  It was so extensible and so lacking in elasticity that it was like it had reached maximum entropy of the dough universe, just before the big bang.  The dough tore in several places as I was stretching it, so I balled it up and tried to stretch it again.  This time it was so bucky that it might as well have been a super ball (y'all remember those super bouncy balls from decades ago?)  With severe abuse, I was able to force it out to nearly 10 inches.  All my previous doughs went to 14 inches.  Anyway, I'd say this dough is no good on day 6.  Or, possibly, my dough stretching technique is so poor that I just can't handle it at this stage.  BTW, it browned nicely, but it had a texture more like dinner rolls than pizza crust.

I'm happy enough with the characteristics of this dough at day 4 or 5, that I could accept either one.  I especially liked the flavor, structure, tenderness, and the way it browned on day 5.  But I'm wondering if there is anything else I might try to make the dough less prone to tearing.

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 11:37:57 PM »
chaspie, I agree your initial overly elastic dough was probably the result of the reball.
When you ball the dough now, are you getting a nice smooth skin with no tearing?

The dough balls should definitely show signs of expanding during the cold ferment.
If the balls didn't show much sign of expanding after 4 days, it would seem the yeast is too low, or maybe too old?

Also, have you standardized your kneading procedure?
It sounds like you are adding ingredients while mixing, and the actual kneading time might be on the low side.
For my NY Style, I like to make sure I get about 6-7 minutes of good kneading action after all of the ingredients are incorporated.
With a KA mixer and a high gluten flour I no longer have any issues with weak dough.

And the main reason I might encounter an overly elastic dough is not letting it come up to room temp before opening the skin (impatient).   ;D
If you are consistent with the temps you are opening the dough balls it will be easier to compare different CF times.

As you found, trying to save a dough ball that didn't open well by reballing is probably not going to work.
 

« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 11:45:05 PM by woodmakesitgood »
Charles

Offline chaspie

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 12:25:52 AM »
Hi woodmakesitgood.  Thank you for taking the time to review my thread.  Answers below.

chaspie, I agree your initial overly elastic dough was probably the result of the reball.
When you ball the dough now, are you getting a nice smooth skin with no tearing?

The ball looks good after reballing.  It is smooth, no tears.  But when I stretch it, it is highly elastic.  It seems that if you have to reball, you've lost the dough.  Might as well toss it.

The dough balls should definitely show signs of expanding during the cold ferment.
If the balls didn't show much sign of expanding after 4 days, it would seem the yeast is too low, or maybe too old?

I believe the yeast is ok.  It is Red Star IDY, about a year old, kept in the freezer.  It's working fine for everything I bake.  It seems highly active. 

Between my first and second batches of dough, I reduced the yeast by half on purpose to try to slow down fermentation.  That was based on suggestions from others earlier in the thread.  I'm aiming for higher flavor development in the dough, so long and slow fermentation is my goal.  I'm shooting for 5 days, since that seems to about when the flavor peaks in the trials I've conducted so far.

Also, have you standardized your kneading procedure?
It sounds like you are adding ingredients while mixing, and the actual kneading time might be on the low side.
For my NY Style, I like to make sure I get about 6-7 minutes of good kneading action after all of the ingredients are incorporated.
With a KA mixer and a high gluten flour I no longer have any issues with weak dough.

Yes, I always mix on the first speed on my Hobart 3 speed mixer, for about 10 minutes total, but half of that time is spent just gathering the dough into a cohesive mass.  So the actual kneading time is no more than 5 minutes.  I stop kneading before the dough can pass the windowpane test.  So I'm intentionally under kneading it, based on the idea that my planned 5 day fermentation in the fridge will complete gluten development.  Am I wrong about that?


And the main reason I might encounter an overly elastic dough is not letting it come up to room temp before opening the skin (impatient).   ;D
If you are consistent with the temps you are opening the dough balls it will be easier to compare different CF times.

I haven't actually checked the dough temperature before opening the dough.  That might be a good thing for me to start doing.  Is there a particular target temp that I should shoot for?  I like to let it warm up 45 minutes before opening it.  It might sometimes end up going a bit longer, but never less.

As you found, trying to save a dough ball that didn't open well by reballing is probably not going to work.

Sadly true.  I'd love to get the dough to develop flavor for 5 days and have it open up perfectly after that much time.  :)

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: My dough less extensible more elastic over time
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2015, 12:52:24 AM »
Hi woodmakesitgood.  Thank you for taking the time to review my thread.  Answers below.

The ball looks good after reballing.  It is smooth, no tears.  But when I stretch it, it is highly elastic.  It seems that if you have to reball, you've lost the dough.  Might as well toss it.

Sorry, I meant to ask if the initial balling is nice and smooth, agreeing that a later reball is no bueno anyway.

I believe the yeast is ok.  It is Red Star IDY, about a year old, kept in the freezer.  It's working fine for everything I bake.  It seems highly active. 

Then it does seem strange to me that your dough balls do not show signs of expansion after days of CF. Maybe you can try the poppy seed test.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.msg59335.html#msg59335

After about 24 hours, I can see rising and some air pockets in my dough balls (in a tupperware container). Maybe the dough experts can help with this.

Yes, I always mix on the first speed on my Hobart 3 speed mixer, for about 10 minutes total, but half of that time is spent just gathering the dough into a cohesive mass.  So the actual kneading time is no more than 5 minutes.  I stop kneading before the dough can pass the windowpane test.  So I'm intentionally under kneading it, based on the idea that my planned 5 day fermentation in the fridge will complete gluten development.  Am I wrong about that?

Under kneading might be ok if you are getting good development in the fridge, but that doesn't seem to be happening yet. Also, your dough is a bit wetter than I am used to for my NY style. I found the dough to be more workable for me at 55-58% hydration, but others probably have success at your 63% and even higher.  8)

I haven't actually checked the dough temperature before opening the dough.  That might be a good thing for me to start doing.  Is there a particular target temp that I should shoot for?  I like to let it warm up 45 minutes before opening it.  It might sometimes end up going a bit longer, but never less.

I have been going by feel, if the ball feels cool then it is most likely not ready. The dough experts can probably help with this too.

Sadly true.  I'd love to get the dough to develop flavor for 5 days and have it open up perfectly after that much time.  :)

You should be able to get there with some tweaking.  :chef:
Once you consistently get the taste you're looking for in a long CF, and some dough ball rise, the opening shouldn't be hard to figure out. You could describe your technique and maybe get some tips on that.
I learned a lot watching Norma's videos on Frank Giaquinto...the dude makes it look easy! ;D

Charles