JT's WFO pies

[scott123]

I think that could be one of the best looking NY style pies that I've ever seen come out of a WFO.

[Ronzo]

I think that could be one of the best looking NY style pies that I've ever seen come out of a WFO.

Me too... I'm drooling.

[pizzablogger]

I watched the video on my Droid X this morning a few times.

At work on the big monitor and just watched it.

I'm literally salivating looking and watching.

A thing of beauty.

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks guys and gals.  I really appreciate the feedback. Coming from those who know the pizza scene in NY, makes me really happy.  

Thanks to Kelly and Scott for pushing me towards the bigger pies.  I hadn't given them any credit, but they will be a standard for me now .  More for folks to eat while waiting.  Also the extended cooking times will allow me to bake 2 at a time without too much fuss, I think.

About the 4min bake times.  I think I am partially to blame for pushing folks that way on the forum.  Lately I have been making some excellent 5-6m pies.  The more I think about it, 4 minutes is just one variable among many.  Because I tend to work with slightly higher hydration doughs for the open crumb, I think that my pies are actually benefiting from the extra bake time.  I'll have to do more tests to verify this though.

Scott, I think you maybe right.  I'll keep toying with NP, but my infatuation may very well be short lived.

Robyn, that 2nd NP is fresh mozz, gorgonzola, figs, and EVOO.  Really good.   The saltiness of the gorgonzola balances really well with the sweetness of the figs.

Chau

[Matthew]

Just saw the video, good job man!

Matt

[gtsum2]

that pie looked and sounded incredible.  I recently started doing a bit longer cooks as well (5 minutes or so) and have liked the crisper crust as a changeup to the normal.  You are doing it up Chau!

[dellavecchia]

Outstanding Chau. Masterful execution and it really looks like a Totonno's pie.

John

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

It will be interesting to see how your tastes develop using your WFO and which style and size of pizza become your favorites.

Peter

[Jet_deck]

I loved the way that the crust tried to resist the pizza wheel.  Every cut, every millimeter along the way, that crispy perfect sound.  I don't even know what a NY slice should taste like, but I want one that sounds just like that.

[parallei]

Killer pie Chau.
 

I'll keep toying with NP, but my infatuation may very well be short lived.

Like Pete, I too will be interested to see where you end up in your preferred style in your WFO.  My personal preference these days is the Neo style (at least on my 2Stone). I like a bit more crispness and have been backing off the temps.  I'm thinking you should get a deck oven to REALLY do a comparison

Keep the photos coming.

[scott123]

Thanks to Kelly and Scott for pushing me towards the bigger pies.  I hadn't given them any credit, but they will be a standard for me now .  More for folks to eat while waiting.  Also the extended cooking times will allow me to bake 2 at a time without too much fuss, I think.

About the 4min bake times.  I think I am partially to blame for pushing folks that way on the forum.  Lately I have been making some excellent 5-6m pies.  The more I think about it, 4 minutes is just one variable among many.  Because I tend to work with slightly higher hydration doughs for the open crumb, I think that my pies are actually benefiting from the extra bake time.  I'll have to do more tests to verify this though.

Scott, I think you maybe right.  I'll keep toying with NP, but my infatuation may very well be short lived.

I think one of the reasons why you don't see NY pies of that quality coming out of WFOs is that it's really hard to dial in the temp. With all the different equipment you've been through, though, I think you're in a unique position to be able to do pies of that caliber on a consistent basis.

I have said elsewhere that, if you serve 100 people an 8 minute pizza next to a 4 minute pie (or a 4 minute next a 2), 99 of them would prefer the 4 minute pizza.  Now... a 5-6 minute pizza next to a 4- that gets a little trickier. A lot of Americans have been conditioned, unfortunately, to enjoy golden, brown and crisp pizza.  You can tweak the hydration to make a 4 minute pie a little crispier, but it's never going to have the same crunch that you experienced cutting that 5-6 minute pie. Ever. I think, when you get into the realm of authenticity, 4 is a little more authentic than 6, so I might call 6 more of a NY/American hybrid, but 6 is still great pizza that I wouldn't judge anyone for preferring.

Chau, when it comes to 6 minute bakes, you have one slight advantage over the rest of us.  At lower elevations a 6 minute bake could end up a bit more oven spring impaired. So, in that sense, you get to have your pizza and eat it too 

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks guys for the kind words.  I will keep cracking at it.  That nut has got to break sooner or later right?    

I read a quote awhile back that said that if you keep at anything long enough, you are bound to be successful.  I will likely keep toying with both styles forever since I can bake a few NP pies and then let the fire die down for the other styles.   I would really like to make this kind of NP crust.  Look at 5:45 onward.  When he cuts that crust....damn!

http://www.eatitalian.com/feature/67044/neapolitan-pizza-making-masters

This would be the type of NP crust that is ideal to me.  Do you guys think that dough is 60% hydration? I wonder if this crust still softens up after sitting for a minute.  

Gene - I'm glad you guys were able to hear that pie being cut.  I wasn't sure if it would sound clear once uploaded considering my 5 yo was screaming in the background for more pepperoni and the in-laws were arguing a bit.  

[Jackie Tran]

I think one of the reasons why you don't see NY pies of that quality coming out of WFOs is that it's really hard to dial in the temp. With all the different equipment you've been through, though, I think you're in a unique position to be able to do pies of that caliber on a consistent basis.

I have said elsewhere that, if you serve 100 people an 8 minute pizza next to a 4 minute pie (or a 4 minute next a 2), 99 of them would prefer the 4 minute pizza.  Now... a 5-6 minute pizza next to a 4- that gets a little trickier. A lot of Americans have been conditioned, unfortunately, to enjoy golden, brown and crisp pizza.  You can tweak the hydration to make a 4 minute pie a little crispier, but it's never going to have the same crunch that you experienced cutting that 5-6 minute pie. Ever. I think, when you get into the realm of authenticity, 4 is a little more authentic than 6, so I might call 6 more of a NY/American hybrid, but 6 is still great pizza that I wouldn't judge anyone for preferring.

Chau, when it comes to 6 minute bakes, you have one slight advantage over the rest of us.  At lower elevations a 6 minute bake could end up a bit more oven spring impaired. So, in that sense, you get to have your pizza and eat it too 

Scott thanks for the input.  I have always paid attention to your posts and you haven't lead me astrayed yet.   

Concerning NY style pies from a WFO, do you think a WFO is that different from a coal oven?  I was thinking about this earlier today and as far as I know coal is made from hardwoods.  So when I burn oak wood down to coals and bake a pie in my WFO, aren't I really just making a coal fired pie?

Concerning hydration and bake times, I may be wrong but I think that if you are working with HG flour at say 65% hydration versus 75% hydration and you baked both at 4 minutes, you will get a different level of crispness immediately post bake and 10 minutes later.   I'm not sure b/c I haven't done the test, but logic is telling me that a 65% hydration HG dough baked at 4 minute will have a similar crisp that a 5 minute baked 75% hydration HG dough. 

I agree that if you polled 100 people with a 4 minute vs a 5 minute pie (same hydration) that most ppl wouldn't be able to tell the difference and wouldn't perhaps even care. 

Concerning the ovenspring between a 4 min pie and a 6 min pie, I tend to think the difference would be negligible.  I know that sounds crazy but hear me out.    IMO, if the gluten is strong enough to support the lift, that lift will occur very similarly after certain temp.   Beyond 500F, I think that temp is hot enough to create an equal amount of lift to both crusts.  The crust should set after just 2 minutes or so and the extra bake time beyond 4 minutes just allows for extra crispness.   Am I nuts for thinking this?  I don't have any proof other than what I have seen during trial bakes.  But again, it could very well be the ovenspring advantage I have at high altitudes that are skewing my results as well, so I will defer to you. 

Scotty, I'm a little confuse about the different style categories by bake times.  I thought the 3-4 min bake pies are NY-elite or NY/NP hybrid type pies where as a 6-8minute bake in a deck oven is more a street style NY.   American would be 8 minutes plus, I guess.  Am I off here? 

Chau

[TXCraig1]

Concerning NY style pies from a WFO, do you think a WFO is that different from a coal oven?  I was thinking about this earlier today and as far as I know coal is made from hardwoods.  So when I burn oak wood down to coals and bake a pie in my WFO, aren't I really just making a coal fired pie?

Charcoal is (sometimes) made from hardwoods. Coal is made from 350 million year old peat bogs. The coal typically used as an oven fuel has more than 2X the energy content of oak for any given weight.

CL

[Jackie Tran]

Ahh thanks for the clarification Craig.   Any idea where these pizzerias are sourcing coal from?  I'll do some reading via Google.

Thx

[scott123]

Concerning NY style pies from a WFO, do you think a WFO is that different from a coal oven?

Chau, coal ovens, with their (from what I've seen) lower ceilings and more removed heat source are more of a middle ground between WFOs and decks than WFOs- which, as I'm sure you know, makes sense, because the pizza is a middle ground as well.

Concerning hydration and bake times, I may be wrong but I think that if you are working with HG flour at say 65% hydration versus 75% hydration and you baked both at 4 minutes, you will get a different level of crispness immediately post bake and 10 minutes later.

As long as the 75% hydration dough is baked at a higher temperature to match the level of 'doneness' at 4 minutes as the 65%, absolutely.  More water in the dough translates into more water post bake (if baked for the same amount of time). Post bake water is the enemy to crispness. But water, to a point, is the friend of oven spring. We've talked about this many times, before. Additional water = additional potential for steam = viagra for bread 

Concerning the ovenspring between a 4 min pie and a 6 min pie, I tend to think the difference would be negligible.  I know that sounds crazy but hear me out.  Laugh  IMO, if the gluten is strong enough to support the lift, that lift will occur very similarly after certain temp.   Beyond 500F, I think that temp is hot enough to create an equal amount of lift to both crusts.  The crust should set after just 2 minutes or so and the extra bake time beyond 4 minutes just allows for extra crispness.

The lift does occur early in the bake, that is true, but, in order to finish baking in less time, you need more heat for a 4 minute pie than a 6 minute (and even more heat for 2 minutes).  As the baking time decreases, the heat has to go up.  Where there is more heat, there is more steam/more spring in those critical first couple minutes.

Scotty, I'm a little confuse about the different style categories by bake times.  I thought the 3-4 min bake pies are NY-elite or NY/NP hybrid type pies where as a 6-8minute bake in a deck oven is more a street style NY.   American would be 8 minutes plus, I guess.  Am I off here?

Here's how I classify bake times

0-1.5 minutes - Neapolitan
2-3.5 minutes - Coal (I don't like the term 'NY elite' )
4-5.5 minutes - NY Style
6+ minutes - American

[pizzablogger]

Here's how I classify bake times

0-1.5 minutes - Neapolitan
2-3.5 minutes - Coal (I don't like the term 'NY elite' )
4-5.5 minutes - NY Style
6+ minutes - American

It's interesting in that "NY-Elite" is a term I have only encountered on this board.

During my trips to NYC, locals have pretty much always referred to it as "Coal Oven Pizza" or "New York-Neapolitan".

Scott, I've stopwatched a good amount of pizzas and I can't recall ever clocking a sub 3 minute pizza at one of the NY coal oven joints. Nearly all of the pizzas I've clocked come in between 4:00 to 4:45, with any variance usually being on the high side (4:45 to 5:15ish) --K

[Pete-zza]

scott123 and Kelly,

I am not sure of the origins of the "elite" term but it has been used on the forum for many years. I have also seen the use of the term at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6622&hilit. That thread was a controversial thread judging from the heavy moderator intervention to delete and modify posts. Maybe I can do some research to see if I can find the first use of the term "elite" on the forum. However, it is quite possible that the term "elite" evolved to include DiFara's, which does not use a coal oven. Maybe there are others in the same boat as Dom DeMarco.

In any event, it will be interesting to see what Chau does with a WFO style NY pizza. Maybe we can call his versions "Chaulite" .

Peter

[pizzablogger]

Peter, for me at least, the "Coal Oven Pizza" or, perhaps more appropriately New York-Neapolitan as the style was an Italian immigrant interpretation of Neapolitan pizzas using the ingredients at hand here in the "new world" is determined by cooking times, the crunch-chew characteristics of the crust, use of fresh mozzarella, sauce which is much more Neapolitan in style (uncooked San Marzano or other Italian tomatoes), TF, etc.

I don't feel this style and NY-Style (street slice) are the same style of pizza at all.....NY Style is almost like a bastardization of the original New York-Neapolitan style which has sadly devolved into the use of cheap ingredients, long cooking times, dried out pizzas, etc. Most of the pizza sold in NYC is akin to McDonald's, Burger King, etc (cheap, fast, comestible food made with no care).....in essence the entire style when taken as a whole is now BS, with a minute number of good examples. To be frank, the NY-Style (street style) is likely best being preserved by the "At Home Pizzerias" of the members of this board.  

I personally do not feel NY-Neapolitan/Coal Oven/Elite is constrained to the fuel source only. As an example, I would consider Toby's Public House (Brooklyn-WFO) and Lucali (Brooklyn-WFO) to be New York-Neapolitan in style, just as the Lombardi's, Totonno's, John's, Patsy's, Grimaldi's Big 5 are.

Regardless of fuel source (and keep in mind opening a coal oven pizzeria in New York is very difficult do to regulations), Chau's video looks very much to be in this same style.

Of course this is just my personal opinion, which is just one person's rambling.

DiFara is kind of difficult to peg...the mixture of 00 & HG flours DeMarco uses brings a character to the crust that is not quite in this style. Kind of a hybrid almost.

Then again, at the end of the day all of it is pizza!  

[Jet_deck]

...  Any idea where these pizzerias are sourcing coal from?  I'll do some reading via Google.

Thx

Charcoal is (sometimes) made from hardwoods. Coal is made from 350 million year old peat bogs. The coal typically used as an oven fuel has more than 2X the energy content of oak for any given weight.

CL

If you find an answer Chau please let us know.  I have always been curious what the "coal" that they burn is also.  I had always decided it was anthracite, but that was only a speculation.