Non stick mats for kneading pizza dough

[Pizza Pirate]

Has anyone used a non stick mat (silicone/fiberglass woven version) for kneading pizza dough by hand? I was wondering if they work as marketed or if there any other approaches that would work better?

I am currently using a maple butcher block table to knead the dough. My dough is fairly wet and seems to stick to the board in a very thin layer. I would like to minimize the amount of additional flour when kneading the dough before fermentation.


Thank you for your input.

Bruce

[pizzaboyfan]

This might be what you are looking for
It's designed for what you are describing

http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Dough-Slip-Flexible-Pastry/dp/B001Q6I9GY

I use it in my storage containers, cut into squares to prevent the dough from sticking to the container.
Nothing sticks to it, so my dough releases as round as they went in, so I do not need oil on the dough.

My only concern, in your application, is that it has a comes in a roll, and had a lot of "curl"
It's not a problem in my application, as the dough flattens it, but it might be an issue on a counter top.
Perry

[Pizza Pirate]

Perry

Thank you for the information. I like how you use the non-stick material as a base to proof your dough balls. I too was concerned about the curling nature of the material and keeping it flat. I have seen some mats advertised from pastry oriented websites that they claim the mats will stay flat.

Right now I like to knead my dough by hand and have not gone the stand mixer route for kneading my dough. Do you knead by hand or mixer? Any comments on the right surface for kneading, ie. marble, wood, etc.

Thanks again for your time and input.

Bruce

[The Dough Doctor]

Bruce;
Not to discourage you from kneading your dough by hand, but did you know that it isn't necessary? Try this sometime, put the water in the mixing bowl, add the yeast to the water and stir to suspend if using compressed yeast, you must prehydrate either IDY or ADY prior to adding it to the water. Then add the flour, and remainder of ingredients. Using a wood spoon (more on that shortly) stir the mass until it is wet and sticky. Remove  the spoon and lightly cover to prevent drying, allow to ferment for 2 to 5-hours, turn out onto a floured bench top, fold the dough several times (I'm hesitant to call this kneading), lightly oil the bowl that the dough was fermented in, and place the dough back into the bowl to ferment for another 30 to 60-minutes. Turn the dough out onto your bench top and cut into desired size pieces, then shape into pizza skins for immediate use. The reason why I like to use a wood spoon to stir the "dough" is so you don't over mix the dough. As you stir, the dough will become tougher, and fear of breaking the wood spoon will prevail to the point where you will stop mixing, and that will be sufficient mixing in this application. The gluten development in this case is accomplished through what is known as biochemical gluten development. You can also get it by managing the dough through the cooler overnight too. This is how bakers used to develop their doughs before Mr. Hobart invented his first dough mixer. The procedure is still used in a number of developing countries around the world.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[dellavecchia]

The procedure is still used in a number of developing countries around the world.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom - It is great to hear about this from a professional, as it is even more of a confirmation on best practices and gluten development. A number of people on the forum, myself included, have nearly ditched our mixers entirely for pizza and bread, preferring to take the stretch and fold route.

John

[scott123]

The gluten development in this case is accomplished through what is known as biochemical gluten development.

Do you know who coined the phrase 'biochemical gluten development?'  Peter's used this term a few times, so I'm guessing it's someone of note.

As far as baking terms go... it leaves a lot to be desired.  It's vague, needlessly scientific sounding and confuses the no/minimal kneading initiate by conveying a false impression that there's a significant difference between the way gluten forms during kneading and during resting- that resting gluten development is 'biochemical' while kneading development is not.

Gluten forms during kneading and resting in exactly the same manner- through hydration and agitation.  Rests rely more on hydration, but there's a very slow agitation component as the dough begins to rise. Kneading is agitation intensive, but there's still hydration occurring during a knead. The only real difference between resting and kneading gluten development is rate. Kneading = fast development. Rest = slow.

Chemical?  There's chemical processes occurring all over the place in dough. Bio?  Is that short for biological??  In what way does 'biochemical' even begin to describe the difference in the rate of gluten development during resting and kneading?  Do I have a better term?  Not necessarily, but anything is better than 'biochemical.'  How about 'passive?'

It took me quite a few years to get my head around no/minimal kneading fundamentals. With society's heavy emphasis on the importance of kneading, it was very difficult to see it from a different perspective. It's beginning to change, but, let's face it, rest based gluten development has been a tough sell. Vague, scientific sounding, potentially confusing terms should have no place in this arena.

[tinroofrusted]

... you must prehydrate either IDY or ADY prior to adding it to the water.

If possible could you explain this in more detail?  I'm not sure what prehydrating is, or how to do it. 

Thanks. 

Tin Roof

[pizzaboyfan]

At the risk of practicing pizza doctoring without a  license, pre-hydrating is dissolving the yeast in water.

[Pete-zza]

There are many types of doughs that can be prepared by hand. But they tend to be of higher hydration. Once the hydration gets to around 35-50%, preparing the dough by hand becomes much more difficult. I found a way to make a cracker style dough with a hydration of around 35% entirely by hand, but a machine would be a much better choice. In a home environment, for that style of dough I would rank a food processor first, followed by a stand mixer, and finally by hand. I am not sure how a bread maker would work with such a dough. I think a kneading mat would be a good choice for all of the styles of dough, whether kneading the dough or using stretch and folds.

Peter

[dellavecchia]

Chemical?  There's chemical processes occurring all over the place in dough. Bio?  Is that short for biological??  In what way does 'biochemical' even begin to describe the difference in the rate of gluten development during resting and kneading?  Do I have a better term?  Not necessarily, but anything is better than 'biochemical.'  How about 'passive?'

Scott - A good reference for the definition of "biochemical" can be found here:

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=15510

Some other references point to gluten development being solely chemical in nature, no matter what the process. Here is a good one that describes three different processes - kneading, enhancement and fermentative:

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisglutenandhowisitdeve.html

The article also references your good point about society's heavy emphasis on kneading.

But based on the above, I would counter that the word "biochemical" is a perfect a descriptor in this case.

John

[scott123]

John, come on.  Your links pretty much prove my point, and yet you feel compelled to disagree? What? 

First link: Biochemical covers just about everything.  The signal to my brain that tells me the uselessness of the term 'biochemical' is biochemical. It's everything. Vague!!!

Second:  All gluten development is chemical so 'chemical' is a useless descriptor for differentiating between resting gluten development and kneading development.

But fermentative... now that's a term I can get behind.  Fermentative vs. mechanical.  Music to my ears 

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

I first came across the expression "biochemical gluten development" from Tom's writings over at the PMQ Think Tank (the original PMQTT before the switch to new software, which rendered the old archives forever inaccessible). I first posted using the above expression in March 2005 at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9524.html#msg9524). Subsequently, Evelyne Slomon made reference to the same expression, which she attributed to Tom, at Reply 459 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28810/topicseen.html#msg28810. Tonight, when I did a Google search of that exact expression, I got a total of six hits, all of which were after my early post referenced above and also after Evelyne's post. I also did a quick look in Professor Raymond Calvel's book, The Taste of Bread, but did not find that expression. Rather, Prof. Calvel talked about the maturation stage of the dough, usually after some initial low speed mixing, and during which fermentation occurs and there is development of the gluten network.

Peter

[tinroofrusted]

If we were playing the game Password, and the clue was "biochemical", I would say "warfare". 

[Essen1]

Wasn't this thread initially about non-stick mats for kneading dough?

[tinroofrusted]

Wasn't this thread initially about non-stick mats for kneading dough?

Good point, Essen.  Things do tend to drift around here....

[Essen1]

Good point, Essen.  Things do tend to drift around here....

Well..., PizzaPirate asked a simple question and things got pretty testy for whatever reason.

I'm sure there's a different sandbox on this forum, maybe with some Matchbox cars in it for added thrills, where playing time could be actually enjoyed and Gluten development could be discussed, whether it's biochemical or otherwise, until Mom calls you in for dinner.

Fair enough?


P.S.: I always loved to built a ramp for my Formula 1 Matchbox cars so they could slit easily onto the makeshift sand track.

[scott123]

Oh, my goodness, a tangent, how contemptible!  It's not like tangents occur all the time here, especially when the threads have run their course 

And, seriously, testy? Are you and I reading the same thread?  Who's being 'testy?' Is it Peter?

Peter... are you being testy?   We've talked about this!   

[Pizza Pirate]

Thanks to all who contributed to my question about non-stick mats and the subsequent diversion about biochemical gluten development. I appreciate the fact about this forum that the members can share their individual viewpoints and experiences so that we all may learn. I am so amazed that members with so many years of professional experience in the pizza industry would take the time to reply to my post. Thank you for inspiring me to want to get better with my pizza making skills and enjoying how good artisanal pizza can be on one's taste buds. 

It's the weekend approaching, time to get our petolas out and ready for the oven. May your corniciones be fluffy and slightly blistered!

Bruce

[Essen1]

Oh, my goodness, a tangent, how contemptible!  It's not like tangents occur all the time here, especially when the threads have run their course 

And, seriously, testy? Are you and I reading the same thread?  Who's being 'testy?' Is it Peter?

Peter... are you being testy?   We've talked about this!   

Scotty,

My comment was a tongue-in-cheek one and not intended to be taken a 100% seriously, hence the reference to the sandbox.

 

[scott123]

I was joking as well, Mike. It's all good.

And for what it's worth, I used to love to play with Hot Wheels.