Author Topic: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!  (Read 2042 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« on: June 10, 2011, 01:23:06 PM »
So I have gotten pretty comfortable with the workflow I have been using for the past month(natural starter 10hr/18hr rises) and have decided to try something a little different. I got my inspiration from the UPN cloning thread and Im attempting to adopt a 24 starter preferment into the process.  I dont know exactly how this will work out, so I scheduled it to where at the 24hr mark the preferment is bombed, I will still be able to edge out a 10hr dough for me and the gal's dinner.  The only problems I see that may arise are the actual ambient temps in the apartment.  Currently the temp is bouncing between 75 and 80 which is a little high from what I have read about the +20h ferments, So I reduced the amount of starter from 5% to 2.5% of the total Final dough.

Here are the numbers
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (70%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (172.5%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

723.13 g  |  25.51 oz | 1.59 lbs
506.19 g  |  17.86 oz | 1.12 lbs
18.08 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.24 tsp | 1.08 tbsp
1247.4 g | 44 oz | 2.75 lbs | TF = N/A
311.85 g | 11 oz | 0.69 lbs
 
 
15.59 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs
15.59 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs
31.19 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs

 
707.54 g | 24.96 oz | 1.56 lbs
490.6 g | 17.31 oz | 1.08 lbs
18.08 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.24 tsp | 1.08 tbsp
31.19 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs
1247.4 g | 44 oz | 2.75 lbs  | TF = N/A

For my preferment I put in the total amount of starter plus 225g of flour and 150g of water.  This was combined and kneaded slight to form a loose dough.  I oiled a container and threw it in there where it will sit for the 24h.(I marked it with a rubberband after it equalized to keep tabs on growth).
Tomorrow morning at 6am Im going to feed my starter again as back up in case this blows in my face.
10am I will take the preferment if all is well and incorporate it into the allotted water.  Then add the flour and salt periodically(I waited on the salt to insure prefementation) until I get the consistentency I want(around a 70% Hydrated goal is the key).  This will then bulk rise 5hours at room temps(3pm), divided and balled to then rest another 5 hours before being baked around 8pm.

Please If I have messed up somewhere catch me...Im still at the preferment stage so things can be fixed. My scale doesnt do tenths or hundredths so I drop those values...shame on me...


Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 05:14:27 PM »
So here is the Preferment that I have made up.  The rubberband marks the dough when it equalized and now it has just about doubled and still has to go until 10am tomorrow when it will be incorparated into the final dough and sat to ferment another 10hrs...Is this ok? I have read that it is supposed to OVERferment and lose its gluten structure.  Is this true?

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16017
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 05:23:13 PM »
If I read that right, your preferment will be about 31% of your total formula? I think that's pushing the limit - espically at 70% hydration. I think your dough will be very extensible and possibly not too strong. You will be incorporating a lot of acid and enzymes as a % of the final dough (you're using a natural starter, right?).  You will know for sure when you get the final dough mixed up based on how it feels and looks.

CL
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 05:29:34 PM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 05:24:55 PM »
Yeah its 31g of my starter(15.5water 15.5 flour) plus some of the flour and water taken out for the final dough recipe(225g fl and 150g h20) I have had my starter for around 4 months now. So its not something I just whipped up.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16017
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011, 05:30:49 PM »
Yeah its 31g of my starter(15.5water 15.5 flour) plus some of the flour and water taken out for the final dough recipe(225g fl and 150g h20) I have had my starter for around 4 months now. So its not something I just whipped up.

Sorry - I figured that out after I wrote the post, so I edited the post to what is now written above.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011, 05:35:13 PM »
Ok so my dough will be too exstensible?  I was worried about the dough do to acids being very difficult to stretch...Will this preferment be enough to ferment my actual final dough or should I add in more starter when I go to make it?  I think What I am going to do is go through with this experiment, but also make one pizza out of the 10h ferment to be safe, that way the girlfriend gets something to eat.  Or do you think everything will be good?
about the strength issue, if my dough will be weak, couldnt I just develop the gluten more than normal, or is this all more complicated than that(which at some level Im sure it is)

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16017
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2011, 05:45:14 PM »
It might be very difficult to strech. It might just fall apart when you first mix it up. It might come out perfect (I wouldn't overwork it). I don't think you'll need any more starter. If anything, I'd use less preferment - say 25% of your total formula as opposed to 31%. If it falls apart due to too much acid and enzymes from the preferment, no amount of working it will develop the gluten and save it.

If it was me, I'd make the back-up batch. There is a good bit of uncertainty around your new formulation. Though, if the dough comes together and feels strong, and you can get it smooth, after mixing, I think you have a very good chance of having a good final dough. If it's going to fail, I think it will do it when you mix it all up - not when it is proofing.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2011, 10:04:03 PM »
I calculated the amount of starter at 2.5 total weight of dough. And the total perform is about 30%. I tried to follow what I have read regarding upns process. Where have I deviated to cause concern? I'm concerned mainly do to unfamiliarity but have I deviated from his possible process? I'm at a movie right now and won't be back until midnight. Should I put the preferment in the fridge or just let it go? I'll make the back up and hopefully everything will work.
Again where did I possibly differ from his protocol?

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16017
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011, 10:24:15 PM »
I think you should let it go and see what happens. The only concern I have is that 25% preferment is about the breakpoint where I started noticing the preferment break down the gluten in the final dough. There are a lot of other variables however. See what happens and adjust accordingly next time. I think the back-up dough is good insurance though.

I really hope it works out for you. I'm probably as exited as you are to see what happens.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2011, 12:45:12 AM »
Okay so I have just gotten back from the Movie, Super 8 is awesome and everyone should go see it.  But back to pizza
The preferment has almost quadrupled in size and the acids have begun to break down the gluten and it has collapsed(predicted and explained by petezza from the Anthony Manigieri Video thread

"On the matter of hydration of the prefermented dough, looking at the video it seems to me that the glob of dough in the rectangular tub could be similar to the hydration of the finished dough, although the tub dough may seem more highly hydrated because of the weakening of the gluten structure and the release of water from its bond due to the action of enzymes in the dough, as I believe Toby (Infoodel) earlier noted. I might add that a hydration of 64% would be typical of a prefermented dough (Didier Rosada states a range of 64-66%). It is also possible that Anthonyís starter has a higher hydration than the prefermented dough or final dough. I recently saw a video at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/04/videos-pure-and-simple-anthony-mangieri-una-pizza-napoletana-nyc.html that shows a tub of a highly-hydrated dough but it is not clear if that is the starter or prefermented dough. "

So this doesnt really concern me or should it?  Im going to continue to let the dough go for the hell of and only incorporate a little less than half, which seems to be some what in line with various sources.
Again my concerns have to do with leavening the dough.  Im hoping the perferment gets a jump start as it should when incorporated well see...
Here are some pics of the preferment.  The magic will happen at 10am tomorrow.  Ill let everyone know who it goes.

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2011, 07:07:01 AM »
alright so the preferment collapsed down to about half of what you see in the picture above and top of it almost appears just as if it were a very thick starter.  Which Im assuming the preferment has turned into.  Im still going to go through with the experiment, but make a 10 hour back up dough as well.  Any other advice or suggestions would be great!

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2632
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2011, 07:31:20 AM »
I might add that a hydration of 64% would be typical of a prefermented dough (Didier Rosada states a range of 64-66%). It is also possible that Anthonyís starter has a higher hydration than the prefermented dough or final dough. I recently saw a video at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/04/videos-pure-and-simple-anthony-mangieri-una-pizza-napoletana-nyc.html that shows a tub of a highly-hydrated dough but it is not clear if that is the starter or prefermented dough. "

What you see in that tub is in the 80's (or even more) hydration-wise. It is more along the lines of a naturally fermented levain than a true starter. Anthony's workflow is actually closer to bread making (very close to the Tartine workflow actually) than traditional pizza.

Looking forward to seeing your final product.

John

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2011, 09:22:59 AM »
I donít know if you saw the experiments I did with leftover poolish from the preferment Lehmann dough (it wasnít a natural starter), but if you are interested at Reply 707 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123191.html#msg123191and then following posts maybe starting at Reply 717 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123330.html#msg123330, you can see what happened in those experiments.  The preferment part could be made into pizzas in many ways.  They werenít my most successful pizzas, but it was an interesting experiment for me to see what might happen to a old preferment.

I will be also interested in seeing how your pie turns out.  Best of luck!  :)

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16017
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2011, 09:46:26 AM »
The preferment looks how I would expect.

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2011, 11:23:44 AM »
So everything actually came together into a good consistent dough. It's bulk rising now a's is the back uP but if the dough feels good when I go to divide and ball, I'm going to just bake off the back uP a's bread. I'm using the tartine method for the back uP so some sort of good loaf should rise, granted it's not 85% h2o but 75 will be fine. I'll take some pics when I gO to divide and ball.

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2011, 11:44:53 AM »
Norma, that poolish focaccia looked wonderful, especially the one with the cherry tomatoes. I actually just got rid of my extra poolish, I wish I would have looked at this before I diluted it and threw it away...I have always wanted to make a focaccia, but havent been able to find time between pizza and tartine bread, maybe sometime next week!

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2011, 04:04:31 PM »
So dough balled up and everything just fine, but im not making these until 8 and Im worried about over proofing them.  I dont like to really but the ballsin the refridgerator, but I will if need be for a a couple hours to retard them and slow them down then take them out for 1.5-2h and bring them back to room temp.  The dough balls have tiny to medium sized bubbles on the surface, but other than that they are smooth  Im just worried about the acids and them being difficult to stretch.  whats the verdict?


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16017
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2011, 10:08:35 PM »
Everything looks good to me. I'd say you're go for launch!

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2011, 10:17:28 PM »
I'm at a coffee shop right so I'll give a brief overview.
The dough tasted wonderful, rich and sour, really really good. The oven behave wonderfully. But the dough handeled horribly. I had to patch two holes Nd throw away a hole our. It wasn't save able at all. Byte problems have to be strength, because I'm using 11oz balls and can't get the pizzas past 9" without approaching devastation. This leaves the rim very big. Not necessarily bad just heavy. I do t think it's my technique a's I have stretched 24" pies before but this dough is unwieldily. Is it the acids or the fact that I am employing very minimal kneading?  I'll post pictures when I get back to my apartment tonight or early in the morn. I may take a break from pizza and focu on bread. It's just the past couple bakes before this one have been good tasting but the way my dough is handling us only causing frustration and tonight was the pinnacle where everything sort of climaxed and fell.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2632
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2011, 07:02:41 AM »
The dough became overly acidic, which caused the stretch problems. The preferment collapsing onto itself was a sign that things were progessing too rapidly. I think that your room temp was too high if it truly was nearing 80 degrees.

One thing to remember is that UPN is a naturally fermented dough, in that the preferment has no starter at all. If you want to develop this workflow further, try reducing the amount of starter that you add to your preferment, and make that pre with equal parts flour and water. That will slow down the process and get you to where you want to be. You need to adapt to what your dough is telling you, and not stay confined to the workflow timings. You have serious skills and a keen understanding of concepts, so keep at it!

John

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2011, 07:12:18 AM »
Ok...So Acid management is the biggest problem, but what about my minimal kneading?  I am kneading very little, mixing it in the bowl, just until it comes together around 1 min.  I dump it into another bowl to bulk, then I divide and very minimally handle to to form the ball employing the same basic technique Anthony uses when he balls his dough, this takes about 15-20 seconds at most. Could this lack of kneading caused a lack of gluten development, if so while the dough is still in bowl during my inital mix should I extend this past the 1min im using and mix until my dough is extremely smooth and such like UPN's out of the mixer?  There are so many variables to work with and understand.  I definitely want to try again copying his methods, or at least something like it.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2632
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2011, 07:33:20 AM »
Ok...So Acid management is the biggest problem, but what about my minimal kneading?  I am kneading very little, mixing it in the bowl, just until it comes together around 1 min.  I dump it into another bowl to bulk, then I divide and very minimally handle to to form the ball employing the same basic technique Anthony uses when he balls his dough, this takes about 15-20 seconds at most. Could this lack of kneading caused a lack of gluten development, if so while the dough is still in bowl during my inital mix should I extend this past the 1min im using and mix until my dough is extremely smooth and such like UPN's out of the mixer?  There are so many variables to work with and understand.  I definitely want to try again copying his methods, or at least something like it.

The gluten question is a good one, and I think you need to add in some more mixing or stretch and folds. Long fermentation can take the place of mixing, but giving yourself a good foundation is still applicable. Try the following, which let's you see dough development but uses minimal kneading.

Drop your dough hydration to 62%. Do your initial mix as you described, let it sit for 20 minutes, and then do some old school Anthony Mangieri and slap and fold. Take the entire dough mass by one end and slap it down on the counter. Then take the end closest to you and fold it over the mass to the other side. Rotate the mass a quarter turn and repeat. Do it about 6 times. Let it sit another 20 minutes and then do another session. You should notice the mass starting to feel smooth and less sticky. I usually do 3 sessions before I bulk. AM would bulk at this stage as well.

The dough becoming less sticky is a sign that the gluten is starting form. You are by no means getting the dough to windowpane. Instead you are setting the stage for a long fermentation by priming the gluten.

John
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 07:41:55 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2011, 07:59:24 AM »
When you say slap and fold are you hinting toward the "french method" of kneading outlined in this video?

If not then Im not sure I exactly follow.  Is there a video where AM performs this task?  I will definitely try this method out, but Im really weary of lowering my Hydration to 62, because Im using a mixture of Caputo and HG flours I think Ill try 65.  I usually operate around 70 so this will be a vacation!
The dough when I handle it before the bulk is essential not smooth.  It is still sticky and still sort of cottage cheese like, so maybe this was an initial problem from the get go.  I think the mixture of acids/over fermentation and lack of gluten was causing my problems, hopefully these will be solved in my next batch.

any other advice?

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2632
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2011, 08:16:10 AM »
When you say slap and fold are you hinting toward the "french method" of kneading outlined in this video?

If not then Im not sure I exactly follow.  Is there a video where AM performs this task?  I will definitely try this method out, but Im really weary of lowering my Hydration to 62, because Im using a mixture of Caputo and HG flours I think Ill try 65.  I usually operate around 70 so this will be a vacation!
The dough when I handle it before the bulk is essential not smooth.  It is still sticky and still sort of cottage cheese like, so maybe this was an initial problem from the get go.  I think the mixture of acids/over fermentation and lack of gluten was causing my problems, hopefully these will be solved in my next batch.

any other advice?

Yes, that video is the exact procedure. I do not slap that hard though, choosing to go a bit easier on the dough. You can see Anthony doing this in the Pure and Simple video, which was shot before he got the mixer seen in Naturally Risen.

Anthony's dough is not in the 70's. It is middle sixties. The reason I suggested going to 62 is so you can see what that dough feels like and then make informed decisions from there. High hydrations can mask issues on the fundamental levels. You will nail this dough though, I know it.

John

Offline wucactus1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 434
  • Age: 25
  • Location: Lexington/Louisville, Ky
Re: Switching it up...UPN STYLE!
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2011, 08:39:08 AM »
Awesome John thinks for the help!  I know the pure and simple video very well, watch it at least once a week(wish the colameco video was still around...)  Ill go over and watch it some more and see whats up.  The reason I always used 70% was for oven spring and moistness in the crumb, which has never been a problem like strength has.  Im sure lowering it a bit wont kill the crumb, perhaps this gluten development will help it.  My pies cook in under two minutes mainly in about 90 seconds or a bit under so moisture should be fine aswell.  here are some pic that I never uploaded.  Didnt take many as i wasnt in a very good mood...