Author Topic: Craig's Neapolitan Garage (Read 85790 times)

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #60 on:** June 20, 2011, 05:50:14 PM »

Quote from: DrivenAgain on June 20, 2011, 12:39:18 PM

Amazing looking pies, excellent leoparding. Im using the same canned tomatoes but I dont season mine at all. I have longer cook times than you so maybe that takes some of the acidity out. I may try a pinch of sugar next time tho, thanks for your sons tip

Jason

Thanks Jason. We add the sugar and salt not for the acid specifically, but for the overall balance of the sauce, and because it seems to bring out more tomato flavor.

CL

chickenparm · « **Reply #61 on:** June 20, 2011, 11:55:32 PM »

The pies you put out are incredible and I would devour all if I could!

Keep up the great work,those type of pies are so inspiring to look forward to make someday.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #62 on:** June 21, 2011, 12:48:09 AM »

Quote from: TXCraig1 on June 20, 2011, 05:50:14 PM

Thanks Jason. We add the sugar and salt not for the acid specifically, but for the overall balance of the sauce, and because it seems to bring out more tomato flavor.

CL

Craig, when I first started making pizza 2 years ago I did read about how many members were just using a bit of sugar and salt with plum tomatoes for their NP sauce. I'll admit that I did not understand it at all. After all, where the heck is the oregano? Isn't pizza sauce suppose to have oregano? Eventually I worked my way up to using a bit of fresh garlic and a bit of olive oil. For NP pies, I now use sugar to sweeten the sauce and a bit of salt to balance it as you eloquently put it. It took me some time, but I do get it now.

Chau

chickenparm · « **Reply #63 on:** June 21, 2011, 01:19:27 AM »

Quote from: Jackie Tran on June 21, 2011, 12:48:09 AM

Craig, when I first started making pizza 2 years ago I did read about how many members were just using a bit of sugar and salt with plum tomatoes for their NP sauce. I'll admit that I did not understand it at all. After all, where the heck is the oregano? Isn't pizza sauce suppose to have oregano? Eventually I worked my way up to using a bit of fresh garlic and a bit of olive oil. For NP pies, I now use sugar to sweeten the sauce and a bit of salt to balance it as you eloquently put it. It took me some time, but I do get it now.

Chau

Chau,

Interesting you pointed this out.As time has gone by,depending on what brand of tomatoes in the can I use,I'm finding more and more,I like less added.I just want that super tomato taste more than anything.

When I use the Centos can of Italian style whole peeled tomatoes,I might add a little bit of sugar and salt after I crush them up.It does not even need any basil,oregano,garlic,or other powders added,like a puree sauce does.

With most purees,I cannot make a decent sauce without adding a whole bunch of stuff...they are normally bitter and a bit acidic in general.

Yet,with a few certain brands of whole peeled or plum tomatoes in the can,where I have to crush/puree them up,Its so good by itself,I find myself just using the little salt or sugar lightly,to make it less acidic and sweeter.

After the pizza comes out,I will sometimes sprinkle the oregano flakes or some garlic powder over the top of the pie,and it works well depending on the pie I make.

jjdec05 · « **Reply #64 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:17:21 PM »

Your pies continue to look amazing!

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #65 on:** June 21, 2011, 06:43:20 PM »

Thank you JJ.

wheelman · « **Reply #66 on:** June 23, 2011, 08:48:11 AM »

Craig,
i've been working with a similar routine exploring the possibility of improving the softness of the crumb compared to the UPN formula. the issues that i'm finding are: less oven spring and weaker, almost too weak to drag onto the peel, dough. the second issue can be addressed by opening a smaller disc and then doing an additional stretch on the peel (thanks omid!). I'm wondering how the proofing time affects both of these variables and if better handling dough means less oven spring.
on my last two bakes i have used 62-63% hydration, 2.2% salt, 1.6% ischia with roughly 24 hours of total fermentation at 65F. last night i got stuck and only had 3 hours after balling up so i did that at 73 and then 80 for an hour. I'm not sure the crumb is that much different from the preferment method. I also seem to have this problem every summer - maybe the table temp and outside temp affects the opening too.
this weekend i'm going to make this dough and a UPN dough for a direct comparison.
any advice you have on proofing times for my comparison would be appreciated!
this was a 250g dough baked at 825 last night.

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #67 on:** June 23, 2011, 02:11:21 PM »

Bill - that's a beautiful pie - magizing cover stuff there!

I'm really liking my recipe similar to yours above with fermentation at 60-64F for 18 hours in bulk and another 6 at 75-77F in balls. I don't think I'd reccomend a different fermentation time/temp. As for the UPN dough, there are so many variables that can change things. I'm thinking 18 hours for the preferment at 75-77F. 4-6 hours bulk at the 60-64F and another 6 in balls at 75-77F.

CL

wheelman · « **Reply #68 on:** June 23, 2011, 02:50:25 PM »

I'm on it! i'll try that and have a direct comparison. i'm really interested in the difference in how soft the crust is between the two.
thanks!
bill

gtsum2 · « **Reply #69 on:** June 23, 2011, 07:15:30 PM »

very nice looking pies...that oven is a monster

wheelman · « **Reply #70 on:** June 25, 2011, 09:14:47 AM »

craig,
I have my schedule all worked out for my weekend showdown. one quick question:
when making the UPN dough with preferment, i've noticed that over about 12 hours it starts falling back to where it starts volume wise. that's why i've decreased the preferment time compared to your recipe. does that matter? i understand that you're in effect feeding it again when you make the dough.
thanks
bill

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #71 on:** June 25, 2011, 10:03:05 AM »

I think when it starts falling back is about when you're ready to go. I don't think you want to go hours later. A couple, but not 6+

CL

wheelman · « **Reply #72 on:** June 25, 2011, 10:12:27 AM »

thanks, that's been my approach. i'll watch it closely this time to be sure.

wheelman · « **Reply #73 on:** June 27, 2011, 10:19:25 AM »

quick report: you are right, the UPN formula makes a tougher crust than the neo standard formula. my two doughs converged at t-6 hours for balling and proofed at RT. the UPN dough was blown up and airy, the neo dough was shiny and not very expanded. first pic is at 3 hours into final proof, second is 6 hours.
the UPN dough handled like it looks, the both opened nicely and both plenty strong for the twist and slide move onto the peel. Bake was really different though. the UPN rose really nice with a puffy rim, the neo didn't have much spring at all. but the chew was definitely much softer on the neo. i need to figure out a combination of these two doughs!

wheelman · « **Reply #74 on:** June 27, 2011, 10:21:43 AM »

here's what i did with the extra mini doughs - 85g or so.

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #75 on:** June 27, 2011, 11:31:30 AM »

That UPN pie looks great. Great crumb and beautiful charring. I had the same observations with respect to tenderness (or lack thereof). The pies at UPN EV (have not been to SF) were not particularly tender either. They were more bread-like than other Neo pies I've tried or even Luzzo's around the corner, but the flavor was there, and that's what made them so enchanting to me, and that's what I wanted to replicate. I don't think this is at all surprising given the particulars of the method.

In the end, I moved in the direction I did - away from the UPN technique - because I can get 85% or more of the flavor and an order of magnitude more tenderness with my current method. I believe in the concept that pizza is not bread. My experience with the UPN technique and what I've learned since really bear this out for me.

CL

RobynB · « **Reply #76 on:** June 27, 2011, 12:08:26 PM »

Craig: I've only had UPN in SF, but that's exactly what my experience of UPN was - very bread-like, not tender at all, very heavy and way too chewy. Not even remotely what I consider a Neapolitan crust, really the opposite in texture. After hearing all the accolades to UPN pizza, I was very surprised by the reality.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #77 on:** June 27, 2011, 12:21:57 PM »

More than once, Marco (pizzanapoletana) said that Anthony was not making a Neapolitan pizza, and he attributed the difference in product in part to the fact that Anthony was trained as a bread maker.

Peter

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #78 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:25:08 PM »

Last night's bake - I had my accounting team over - 30 folks - for a office party - 21 pies.

100% Caputo
60% water
2.8% salt
1.5% Ischia culture

My normal mixing routine. 24 hours in bulk at 64F + 8+ more in balls at 77F. Bake 65-70 seconds at 875F. The crust was melt-in-your-mouth tender. Perfect (IMHO) sour flavor. Some of my favorite crust so far.

CL

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #79 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:27:04 PM »

More pics