Switching it up...UPN STYLE!

[wucactus1]

Ok...So Acid management is the biggest problem, but what about my minimal kneading?  I am kneading very little, mixing it in the bowl, just until it comes together around 1 min.  I dump it into another bowl to bulk, then I divide and very minimally handle to to form the ball employing the same basic technique Anthony uses when he balls his dough, this takes about 15-20 seconds at most. Could this lack of kneading caused a lack of gluten development, if so while the dough is still in bowl during my inital mix should I extend this past the 1min im using and mix until my dough is extremely smooth and such like UPN's out of the mixer?  There are so many variables to work with and understand.  I definitely want to try again copying his methods, or at least something like it.

[dellavecchia]

Ok...So Acid management is the biggest problem, but what about my minimal kneading?  I am kneading very little, mixing it in the bowl, just until it comes together around 1 min.  I dump it into another bowl to bulk, then I divide and very minimally handle to to form the ball employing the same basic technique Anthony uses when he balls his dough, this takes about 15-20 seconds at most. Could this lack of kneading caused a lack of gluten development, if so while the dough is still in bowl during my inital mix should I extend this past the 1min im using and mix until my dough is extremely smooth and such like UPN's out of the mixer?  There are so many variables to work with and understand.  I definitely want to try again copying his methods, or at least something like it.

The gluten question is a good one, and I think you need to add in some more mixing or stretch and folds. Long fermentation can take the place of mixing, but giving yourself a good foundation is still applicable. Try the following, which let's you see dough development but uses minimal kneading.

Drop your dough hydration to 62%. Do your initial mix as you described, let it sit for 20 minutes, and then do some old school Anthony Mangieri and slap and fold. Take the entire dough mass by one end and slap it down on the counter. Then take the end closest to you and fold it over the mass to the other side. Rotate the mass a quarter turn and repeat. Do it about 6 times. Let it sit another 20 minutes and then do another session. You should notice the mass starting to feel smooth and less sticky. I usually do 3 sessions before I bulk. AM would bulk at this stage as well.

The dough becoming less sticky is a sign that the gluten is starting form. You are by no means getting the dough to windowpane. Instead you are setting the stage for a long fermentation by priming the gluten.

John

[wucactus1]

When you say slap and fold are you hinting toward the "french method" of kneading outlined in this video?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0</a>

If not then Im not sure I exactly follow.  Is there a video where AM performs this task?  I will definitely try this method out, but Im really weary of lowering my Hydration to 62, because Im using a mixture of Caputo and HG flours I think Ill try 65.  I usually operate around 70 so this will be a vacation!
The dough when I handle it before the bulk is essential not smooth.  It is still sticky and still sort of cottage cheese like, so maybe this was an initial problem from the get go.  I think the mixture of acids/over fermentation and lack of gluten was causing my problems, hopefully these will be solved in my next batch.

any other advice?

[dellavecchia]

When you say slap and fold are you hinting toward the "french method" of kneading outlined in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0
If not then Im not sure I exactly follow.  Is there a video where AM performs this task?  I will definitely try this method out, but Im really weary of lowering my Hydration to 62, because Im using a mixture of Caputo and HG flours I think Ill try 65.  I usually operate around 70 so this will be a vacation!
The dough when I handle it before the bulk is essential not smooth.  It is still sticky and still sort of cottage cheese like, so maybe this was an initial problem from the get go.  I think the mixture of acids/over fermentation and lack of gluten was causing my problems, hopefully these will be solved in my next batch.

any other advice?

Yes, that video is the exact procedure. I do not slap that hard though, choosing to go a bit easier on the dough. You can see Anthony doing this in the Pure and Simple video, which was shot before he got the mixer seen in Naturally Risen.

Anthony's dough is not in the 70's. It is middle sixties. The reason I suggested going to 62 is so you can see what that dough feels like and then make informed decisions from there. High hydrations can mask issues on the fundamental levels. You will nail this dough though, I know it.

John

[wucactus1]

Awesome John thinks for the help!  I know the pure and simple video very well, watch it at least once a week(wish the colameco video was still around...)  Ill go over and watch it some more and see whats up.  The reason I always used 70% was for oven spring and moistness in the crumb, which has never been a problem like strength has.  Im sure lowering it a bit wont kill the crumb, perhaps this gluten development will help it.  My pies cook in under two minutes mainly in about 90 seconds or a bit under so moisture should be fine aswell.  here are some pic that I never uploaded.  Didnt take many as i wasnt in a very good mood...

[wucactus1]

The second pie(margherita) was extremely gummy as I couldnt stretch it out and get it thin, so It was more like an 8" foccacia bread with sauce...gross, so gummy!
Here are some crumb shots and how I like my underskirt and how my GF likes her's

[dellavecchia]

Go ahead with 65%. Maybe someone else should chime in to confirm, but if your bake is 2 minutes then it might be more appropriate. It might also better match with addition of HG flour you are using. Let us know how it turns out, and glad to help anytime if I can.

John

[wucactus1]

I didnt see in pure and simple where anthony does that mixing technique before he bulk rises.  I saw him pushing/rolling the dough around before he began to divide and ball the dough.  Is this what you meant?

[dellavecchia]

I didnt see in pure and simple where anthony does that mixing technique before he bulk rises.  I saw him pushing/rolling the dough around before he began to divide and ball the dough.  Is this what you meant?

That is exactly the sequence I am referring to, he just does it slightly differently from the french method. The outcome is the same though - you are hand kneading. Whether it is done with a smaller amount of dough with rests in between, or for a longer period if time with a huge mass, the idea is that you are developing gluten by hand. I prefer the slap, fold, rest sequence because it requires a minimal amount of work to get the gluten where I want it to be before bulk. But there are many, many different ways to get there - see what you like best.

John

[wucactus1]

All this really makes me want to make pizza , not really to eat but experiment!  I promised the girlfriend that I would take two weeks away from pizza and the last time I said that I broke in a week...I really want to experiment, but I think im going to hold strong and try at least 1.5 weeks off, come back refreshed and renewed, with new tactics.  I will be making some tartine bread dough either tonight or tomorrow so bread is still permitted!