Deep Dish Pan, bare aluminum or with PSTK?

[tjkoko]

I'm looking at the deep dish pans at pizzatools.com and can't decide if I want bare aluminum or one having PSTK.  What's not an issue with me is seasoning aluminum 3 or 4 times with oil and a bake in a hot oven.

Although their deep dish stacking pans look fine for the job, I'm wondering about their deep dish thick crust pans (all of the latter have PSTK).  And btw I thought that chicago deep dish pizza is/was a thick crusted pizza.  Correct me on that one.

Best,
-T

[Tscarborough]

Not sure what PSTK is, but I detest non-stick coatings, and prefer steel, iron, or aluminum that is not pre-seasoned.  It is easy enough to season and then it is both mine and I know exactly what was used to do it.  To say nothing of the price difference.

[JConk007]

I have the PStK and love it! Not like a noticible teflon or something. I also have the allied metals deep dish that work as well or better but they are 9" ers.  Peter can explain more conductivity as he did for me. The bottom line you want a darker pan
yes Deep Dish is a thinner biscut like  crust see this crust shot. These pics are from a PSTK pan using one of the best recipes on the forum!   Malnatis deep dish with semolina thread started and pefected by forum member BTB!
John

[tjkoko]

I just saw these anodized aluminum pans on ebay and am, indeed, tempted to get one or two:

http://cgi.ebay.com/12-ALUMINUM-ANODIZED-DEEP-DISH-PIZZA-PANS-/260773454991?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb74f248f

[Pete-zza]

T,

If that is the size of deep-dish pan that you want, I don't think you can go wrong with the eBay item for the asking price. What you really want is a seasoned pan or something equivalent to it. I have several PSTK products from PizzaTools and, like John and BTB, I am very fond of them. They don't require seasoning but the PSTK coating comes at a fairly steep price, as does the Black Buster coating for the Allied pans. You could go with bare aluminum deep-dish pans and season them but to get them fully seasoned can take a long time--unlike a pizza operator who might be running hundreds of pizzas through his oven in the course of a week. To me, a well seasoned pan is as good as a PSTK pan. Some might even argue that it is better because of some perceived flavor contribution to the final pizza that you can't get from a coating like the PSTK coating. PizzaTools says that pizzas bake faster in its pans than in steel pans so that is something to keep in mind as you consider the pan on eBay.

Peter

[tjkoko]

Thanks for all the info and those pans on ebay are made of anodized aluminum and not steel.  But am still considering the PSTK product.  I'd really prefer a nicer bake overall.

[tjkoko]

Looking at the Black Buster at Kerekes (Bakedeco), they can take heat up to 500F.  But what about the PSTK offered by PizzaTools?

[Pete-zza]

But what about the PSTK offered by PizzaTools?

T,

According to member Lloydrep, who is actually a rep for Lloyd Industries, the parent or affiliate of PizzaTools, the PSTK coating can tolerate temperatures of up to 600 degrees F, as noted in Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7152.msg62042/topicseen.html#msg62042.

Peter

[tjkoko]

And what's the preferred pan around here with you guys: with or without perforations?  

Edit:  do you prefer the stacking/nesting pan or PizzaTools Deep Dish Thick Crust pan with perforations?

[Pete-zza]

And what's the preferred pan around here with you guys: with or without perforations? 

T,

I think it depends on what kind of pizza you want to make. Speaking for myself, I have both perforated and non-perforated pans, especially cutter pans. I decide which to use based on the type of pizza I want to make. For some pans, for example, pans for making thick crust pizzas, perforations are very helpful and may even be necessary. Examples of such pans are the ones at http://www.pizzatools.com/Cutter_Pans_Perforated/30871/subgrouping.htm and http://www.pizzatools.com/Thick_Crust_Pans/30880/subgrouping.htm. A point to keep in mind, however, in considering perforated pans for home oven applications is that if the pizza calls for oiling the pan with more than nominal amounts of oil, the oil can leak through the holes in the pan (or disk in the case of a perforated disk) and hit the lower heating coil and cause a lot of smoke and possibly set off alarm systems if the oven door is opened. These are usually not issues for professionals who use conveyor ovens to bake their pizzas. I believe that such was the case with Pizza Hut, who used to use perforated deep-dish pans to bake their pan pizzas.

Peter

[tjkoko]

Okay then for BTB's Malnati recipe, which pan would it be since I'd like to start with that recipe?

Edit:  oops, it shows BTB using a non perforated pan.  And your opinion would be the same?

[Pete-zza]

Okay then for BTB's Malnati recipe, which pan would it be since I'd like to start with that recipe?

T,

I know that BTB loves the PizzaTools PSTK pans and is effusive in his praise for such pans but I will let him answer your question. My recollection is that he has more than one size pan, including some small ones for individual use or for a couple of eaters. He may even have a preference between the straight-sided pans and the sloping-sided pans. Most classic Chicago deep-dish operators use the straight-sided pans.

You might indicate to BTB the size pan that most interests you.

Peter

[BTB]

tjkoko, I just saw this thread this morning and noted your queries.  Yes, while I have many different brands of deep dish pizza pans, among my favorites are the straight-sided ones with PSTK from Pizzatools.com (which in their system they call "stacking").  "In the beginning of deep dish pizza time" (in the 1940's and early 1950's), my guess is that all the classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias started out with shiny steel or the like straight-sided metal pans and over time they got richly blackened from tremendous amount of use (and maybe incomplete washing).  The blackened or darker colored pans absorb the heat (instead of reflecting it) and help cook the pizza crust much better than a shiny one.  And the average home pizzamaker couldn't possibly make enough pizzas in a decade that would cause the shiny aluminum pans to blacken, even with some seasoning, which I tried years ago.  Highly suggest the ones with PSTK or comparable types.

I do prefer the straight-sided pans, like 100% of all the classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias use, but I can't deny for a minute that much of the reason is simply "tradition."  For pizzamakers with little to no deep dish experience -- esp. in "extracting" a cooked pizza from a pan -- the tapered-sided pans have a little advantage (e.g., tipping and sliding the baked pizza out onto the cutting board).  At the deep dish pizzerias, of course, they cut the pizzas right in the pan and serve it to you that way.  But it wouldn't be economical for home use to cut and damage the pans doing that. 

And, of course, NONE of the classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias use a "perforated" pan.  For deep dish pizzas with use of a lot of oil, that would be a nightmare in the oven and possibly a fire hazard (like oil or the like dripping out of the perforated holes).  I have a strange 14" straight-sided pan with holes that are kind of raised in the bottom of the pan and I experimented with it a couple of times.  Result . . . the pan is now collecting dust and awaiting the garage sale.  And in my many travels across the country, I've never had a pizza from a deep dish pizzeria that used perforated deep dish pans.  Non-perforated pans are best for deep dish pizzas without a doubt in my estimation.

Good luck and share with all the experiences with your winners (and losers).

                                                                                  --BTB           

Edit - It is just a technicality, but Pizzatools/Lloyd stacking deep dish pans are generally considered in the industry as "straight-sided," but they have a slight insignificant different diameter at the bottom of the pan because of their unique construction.  For instance, their 9" pan (which is probably the most common size) is 9" at the top and 8.875 at the bottom because of the "swiggle" construction.  (see their explanation at
http://www.pizzatools.com/Deep_Dish_Stacking/30873/subgrouping.htm )
I just enter 9" in the deep dish pizza calculation tool and disregard the insignificant different figure for the bottom as 98% of the pan is straight-sided. 

[tjkoko]

THANKS BTB!  It appears therefore that a 9" stacking is the one to get as opposed to the 12".   

[BTB]

The 9" size pan is now ideal for a pizza for my wife and I to split and easily consume.  But in my youth, I could eat a whole pizza of that size or larger myself.  Gone are those days, tho.  But it is also an ideal size to make different multiple pizzas for those who have family and friends who like different toppings (e.g., the kids want "just cheese" and Uncle Joe wants 3 different things) rather than making a larger pizza (like a 12" to 16") with basically the same toppings, which many may or may not like.  I've also got several smaller PSTK "individualized" size pans, 6" and 7", to vary the dough recipes a bit in each and have a "side-by-side" comparison by which to judge the worth of various dough formulations.

And btw I thought that chicago deep dish pizza is/was a thick crusted pizza.  Correct me on that one.

The majority of the times that I've been to all the classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias, the pizza crusts themselves cannot be characterized as "thick."  It is generally more of a medium crust, but there were times when the kitchens there were not manned by the good cooks and a thicker crust would occasionally emerge, esp. at the famous Gino's East. The "thick" description I speculate comes from the overall description of a Chicago deep dish pizza which taken together with the dough, the cheese (on the bottom), the toppings (many or few), and thicker chunky sauce (must be on top) and maybe other things . . . lead to such pizzas being described by many (I can picture many describing it with their thumb and fingers) as " . . .you know, that thick kind of pizza. . ."  But as far as the crust is concerned, much of that is a myth.

One of Chicago's most popular deep dish pizzas today is Pizano's, which have 3 restaurants in the area and their crust for a deep dish pizza I would characterize as almost "thin."  And Pizano's, of course, is "Uncle Malnati" from the very famous Chicago deep dish family.  But most of the others I would say are of the medium thickness style.  And John's pictures of his great pizza above I think shows a nice medium thickness to the crust (not considering all the other ingredients).  

Further, I note you are a veteran bread maker.  Beware that any Chicago pizza, thick or thin, is not based on a pure bread dough formulation.  On the tangent of bread to pie dough, many Chicago style pizzas get closer to the pie dough side of that tangent.  And deep dish dough especially must not be overworked (est. mixing 1 to 3 minutes max.).  FWIW.

                                                                                                  --BTB

[tjkoko]

While being quite aware that pizza dough is NOT bread dough and that both are worked differently, I'll follow the dough recipes here at Pizzamaking for authenticity.  BTW for my 6C batard made with a poolish and 5C KA AP and 1C KA WW, I knead the bread dough for about no more than 20 or 30 seconds and follow up alternately with a rest period and a french fold (2-3 max).

[tjkoko]

Oh and can someone point out to me the location of the Chicago Deep Dish Calculator that's been mention somewhere in this thread.

[Pete-zza]

T,

Here is the link to all of the dough calculating tools: http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html.

Peter

[BTB]

While being quite aware that pizza dough is NOT bread dough and that both are worked differently, I'll follow the dough recipes here at Pizzamaking for authenticity.  BTW for my 6C batard made with a poolish and 5C KA AP and 1C KA WW, I knead the bread dough for about no more than 20 or 30 seconds and follow up alternately with a rest period and a french fold (2-3 max).

I see you can teach me many things!  That's what's great about this website . . . we can all learn from each other.

                                                                                         --BTB

[jcg]

Can one comment on how the Pizzatools PSTK deep dish stacking pans compare to the Chicago Metallic Bakalon Deep Dish Pans or the Allied deep dish non stick pans (both are at http://www.akitchen.com/store/pizzapans.html)? I remember reading comments in other threads (can't remember which ones) that all 3 gotvery good ratings on these forums. Has anyone tried all 3 brands and can comment on the pros/cons of each?

jcg