Author Topic: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market  (Read 9474 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2011, 04:04:43 PM »
John,

Thanks again for reminding me what the times were that you used for the reballs.  I will have to go back to a one trial dough ball this coming week and do a reball at market when I arrive in the morning, and use the dough ball in a few hours.  Maybe that will help my final results.  At least starting at square one and going from there, maybe I will understand how this dough works at market better.

I appreciate you take the time to help me understand dough.  Since you have studied dough for many years, you are the master of how doughs behave.  I still have much to learn.

Have a great day too!  :)

Norma

Thanks for the regards, but I'm not a master of anything.  I could probably talk your leg off on laminated cracker crusts, but these doughs are relatively new to me.  But I was blessed with loving great food, of having an inquisitive mind, of loving to experiment, and of getting excited very easily.  I admire your hard work and your tenacity Norma......

John
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 04:08:18 PM by fazzari »


Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 06:47:08 PM »
Thanks for the regards, but I'm not a master of anything.  I could probably talk your leg off on laminated cracker crusts, but these doughs are relatively new to me.  But I was blessed with loving great food, of having an inquisitive mind, of loving to experiment, and of getting excited very easily.  I admire your hard work and your tenacity Norma......

John

John,

Thanks for your kind words.  I would like to learn more about laminated cracker crusts someday, because I havenít tasted them or worked with them.  I think I only did one or two experiments with trying to make something along those lines.

It is great you have an inquisitive mind and love to experiment.  :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2011, 09:30:40 AM »
I mixed a hybrid Reinhart dough on Friday evening.  I was thinking about how sticky my dough was last week, after mixed in the Hobart and how I had problems with dividing, scaling and balling..  I had thought back to when I made other Reinhart doughs and how easily they came together using the flat beater on my Kitchen Aid mixer.  Those doughs werenít as sticky as the hybrid Reinhart doughs I made, and they were also higher hydration doughs.  I decided to mix the hybrid Reinhart in the Kitchen Aid with the flat beater only Friday evening.  I gave the dough two rests and then mixed in the olive oil.  The dough didnít stick to the sides of my mixing bowl and was a lot less sticky for me, when I went to ball.  I also changed the flour in this mix to KASL because I thought maybe KABF also might have contributed to my sticky problems.  The final dough temperature was 79.2 degrees F.  I will see if these mixing methods and the change of flour give me better results on Tuesday.
Formula I used and pictures of the dough ball Friday evening and today.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2011, 09:33:33 AM »
Pictures of dough ball Friday evening and this morning.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 09:12:47 AM »
This post is just to show pictures of the top and bottom of the hybrid Reinhart dough ball this morning.  The dough ball doesnít feel sticky on top.  I will do the reball tomorrow morning, but don't know if I will be able to compare my results to last week, because I did change the kind of flour that was used and also the mixing method.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 08:07:46 AM »
After I got the oven fired-up and set-up all the other stuff, I reballed the hybrid Reinhart dough ball with a little oil.  I then placed it in my pizza prep refrigerator.  Six hours later, I took the hybrid Reinhart dough ball out and didnít let it warm-up at all.  Although the dough was very soft and wasnít sticky, when opening the dough ball it wanted to keep stretching back, and in one spot I got a thin spot from the dough wanting to stretch back.  I didnít get the skin stretched to 16" because I was afraid of developing more thin spots.  I did use cornmeal on the peel and didnít use a lot.  It worked well, when sliding the pie into the oven.  When the pie was in the oven Steve and I could smell the great aroma of the cornmeal.  After the pie baked for awhile, the thin spot did break down and wanted to stick to the deck.  I then put the pie on a screen, because I didnít want any more mess in the oven. 

The finished pie had a great taste in the crust and was very moist in the rim.  It can be seen on the pictures how the dough ball looked before I did the reball and also right before I used the dough ball to open into a skin.  To me, the dough ball didnít look like it had loosened up enough, in the time I had it in the pizza prep fridge.  Maybe the colder temperatures of the pizza prep fridge had something to do with gluten not being loose enough. 

All in all this was a very tasty pie.  Steve, my taste testers and I all enjoyed it, even though it wasnít perfectly shaped.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 08:10:41 AM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 08:11:28 AM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline Tman1

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 09:29:42 AM »
These last pictures look pretty good... at least to me. I need to get my Webber set up going so I can try pizza more often. The only downside to a 'big brick oven' is the time needed to heat it up. I feel guilty if it's just for a couple pies.  :-\

(As an aside- I did win my 'pizza throwdown', but I think I won more on topping choice than crust... even though I know my crust was much 'lighter' than hers. Our lemon drop pizza beat out a nutella-strawberry-banana-chocolate drizzle-icing sugar combo 2-1)

Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2011, 10:07:55 AM »
These last pictures look pretty good... at least to me. I need to get my Webber set up going so I can try pizza more often. The only downside to a 'big brick oven' is the time needed to heat it up. I feel guilty if it's just for a couple pies.  :-\

(As an aside- I did win my 'pizza throwdown', but I think I won more on topping choice than crust... even though I know my crust was much 'lighter' than hers. Our lemon drop pizza beat out a nutella-strawberry-banana-chocolate drizzle-icing sugar combo 2-1)

Tman1,

Johnís hybrid Reinhart dough formula does make a great pizza.  I am just trying to fit it into my market schedule.  If I was making this pie at home, or even at market with a more flexible schedule, I donít think I would be having the issues I am now.  When I can watch my doughs closer, usually, but not always, I can understand the dough better.

Great to hear you won the ďpizza throwdownĒ!  ;D Congrats!  I would be interested in hearing about your ďlemon dropĒ pizza.  Did you post it somewhere here on the forum?

Norma
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Offline Tman1

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2011, 10:23:28 AM »
Totally stolen from another....  ::)

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f13/pizza-gypsy-lemon-drop-pizza-16059.html

We've had good luck with it. One of the judges (my uncle) didn't like the sounds/look of it when he saw the lemons, but he ended up voting for me (actually us as my wifey was involved too). My mom was another judge (since it was actually a birthday party for her), but she doesn't have a refined palate at all.  She's almost as bad as my mother-in-law who, when she wants something to eat at our house, asks 'what's the oldest thing in your fridge?'. Ugghhh!  Makes it easy to keep her happy though!!


Back to pizza!    :pizza:

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 10:29:23 AM »
Norma,

To my eye, the latest pizza looks more like a NY style and might have even appeared more so if you had been able to make a larger skin. Was that your impression also?

Also, how did the crust flavor compare with that of a typical preferment Lehmann crust? And where do you go next with this experiment?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 10:46:39 AM »
Totally stolen from another....  ::)

http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f13/pizza-gypsy-lemon-drop-pizza-16059.html

We've had good luck with it. One of the judges (my uncle) didn't like the sounds/look of it when he saw the lemons, but he ended up voting for me (actually us as my wifey was involved too). My mom was another judge (since it was actually a birthday party for her), but she doesn't have a refined palate at all.  She's almost as bad as my mother-in-law who, when she wants something to eat at our house, asks 'what's the oldest thing in your fridge?'. Ugghhh!  Makes it easy to keep her happy though!!


Back to pizza!    :pizza:

Tman1,

Thanks for posting the recipe for the Pizza Gypsy Lemon Drop dressing.  :) That sounds delicious to me!  I will give that a go soon.  At least it is easy to keep your mother happy with simple or old dressings.  ;D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 10:58:26 AM »
Norma,

To my eye, the latest pizza looks more like a NY style and might have even appeared more so if you had been able to make a larger skin. Was that your impression also?

Also, how did the crust flavor compare with that of a typical preferment Lehmann crust? And where do you go next with this experiment?

Peter

Peter,

I think if I had been able to stretch the dough thinner, the pie would have been more like a NY style, but the rim is much moister and tender.  I donít know if it would have stayed that way, but think it would have from the higher hydration, if I had more success in the stretching part.

Steveís and my opinions are the hybrid Reinhart dough does have a better flavor in the taste of the crust.  Steve said he is going to try Johnís hybrid formula at home soon, to see what kind of results he gets.  Steve also likes Reinhart doughs, but hasnít experimented with them too much.

I am not sure where I am going to go from here.  This experiment did produce a less sticky dough, with using my flat beater in the Kitchen Aid mixer.  I am not sure if this coming Friday I might mix the dough the same, and then try a reball on Monday afternoon.  I canít see me reballing on Tuesday and then being able to use the dough balls the same day.  Maybe I did something else wrong, but I would have to fit this dough into my market schedule and have the dough work consistently week after week.  Do you think this would be the best way to do the next experiment?

Norma
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 11:54:59 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 11:27:19 AM »
Norma.

I believe you meant to say that you and Steve preferred the hybrid Reinhart dough from a crust flavor standpoint. Have you and Steve been able to pinpoint what it is about the flavor of the hybrid Reinhart crust that you prefer over the preferment Lehmann crust? Apart from the higher hydration and the use a bit more yeast, the main difference between the hybrid Reinhart dough formulation and a Lehmann dough formulation is the use of honey. However, even there, Tom frequently recommends using a small amount of sugar for a dough that is to ferment for more than a few days. Honey is just another form of sugar, and is used by some pizza operators for the NY style.

I think your idea of doing a reballing of the hybrid Reinhart dough on Monday instead of Tuesday is as good as any at this point. Remember, also, that you still have the option of using the EL-7 product at some point if the need arises.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 11:56:51 AM »
Norma.

I believe you meant to say that you and Steve preferred the hybrid Reinhart dough from a crust flavor standpoint. Have you and Steve been able to pinpoint what it is about the flavor of the hybrid Reinhart crust that you prefer over the preferment Lehmann crust? Apart from the higher hydration and the use a bit more yeast, the main difference between the hybrid Reinhart dough formulation and a Lehmann dough formulation is the use of honey. However, even there, Tom frequently recommends using a small amount of sugar for a dough that is to ferment for more than a few days. Honey is just another form of sugar, and is used by some pizza operators for the NY style.

I think your idea of doing a reballing of the hybrid Reinhart dough on Monday instead of Tuesday is as good as any at this point. Remember, also, that you still have the option of using the EL-7 product at some point if the need arises.

Peter

Peter,

Lol, I did mean to post that Steve and I preferred the hybrid Reinhart pizza better.  :-D I think the heat and humidity must have gotten to me yesterday, because today I am tired, from standing all day and dealing with the heat and humidity. At the end of the evening, I am ready to get out of market as fast as I can, especially when it is hot.  I will edit my post. 

Steve and I really canít pinpoint why we prefer the hybrid Reinhart, but it could be from the longer ferment time or how moist the rim is.  There really isnít any sweetness in the crust from the honey.  I donít think enough was used for any sweetness to show up.  I didnít try putting any slices in my holding cabinet, so I donít know how they will hold up there.  I also havenít tried freezing any dough balls, so that is another concern.  John did have great results with his freezing a dough ball, but I donít know if my results will be the same.  I forgot about trying the EL-7 in the hybrid Reinhart dough, but that might be a possibility at some point in time.  I would rather use natural ways of controlling my doughs if at all possible.

I will try mixing the same and doing a reball on Monday.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2011, 01:46:54 PM »
Peter,

Lol, I did mean to post that Steve and I preferred the hybrid Reinhart pizza better.  :-D I think the heat and humidity must have gotten to me yesterday, because today I am tired, from standing all day and dealing with the heat and humidity. At the end of the evening, I am ready to get out of market as fast as I can, especially when it is hot.  I will edit my post. 

Steve and I really canít pinpoint why we prefer the hybrid Reinhart, but it could be from the longer ferment time or how moist the rim is.  There really isnít any sweetness in the crust from the honey.  I donít think enough was used for any sweetness to show up.  I didnít try putting any slices in my holding cabinet, so I donít know how they will hold up there.  I also havenít tried freezing any dough balls, so that is another concern.  John did have great results with his freezing a dough ball, but I donít know if my results will be the same.  I forgot about trying the EL-7 in the hybrid Reinhart dough, but that might be a possibility at some point in time.  I would rather use natural ways of controlling my doughs if at all possible.

I will try mixing the same and doing a reball on Monday.

Norma

hey Norma
As you know I haven't experienced the problems you're having with the reballs, and the stretching as such...so one of my suggestions was going to be possibly using the freezer when you had gotten to a point where your dough was working for you, and you had all the kinks out.
I did want to comment on the the taste quality and mouth appeal of this dough though.  First of all, texture wise, a crispy thin bottom with moist crumb on the edges just is super appealing to me and all of us here.  As for the flavor and the use of honey...I'm thinking Peter is exactly right regarding the use of sugar in a longer fermented dough.......but.......I have also found that depending on what you top your pizza with, you can actually taste the deep flavor of honey....I just think it gets hidden sometimes by other flavors......Yesterday, I made a pizza with smoked chicken, green pepper, onion and ranch....and with me not mentioning honey, all five of the people who ate it commented on the flavor of honey.  It's not what makes or breaks the pizza, it's just an observation.  I'm going to do some more work freezing doughs, maybe not this dough in particular...but I've found my crew is getting to like another modified New York style recipe, and I'm thinking of making 10 or 20, freezing them, and then using when we want.

Here's our pizza from yesterday.....7 days in the fridge.....reball 5 hours prior to bake

Good luck Norma
john

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »
I keep wondering how I miss some of these new threads!

Those pies look very good Norma! Nice work and I enjoy reading about the results and outcomes.
 :chef:
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2011, 03:07:44 PM »
John,

Is it possible that your tasters picked up on the sugar that is common in Ranch dressings, quite often in the form of corn syrup and in amounts that can easily exceed 4% of the weight of the Ranch dressing?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2011, 03:10:40 PM »
hey Norma
As you know I haven't experienced the problems you're having with the reballs, and the stretching as such...so one of my suggestions was going to be possibly using the freezer when you had gotten to a point where your dough was working for you, and you had all the kinks out.
I did want to comment on the the taste quality and mouth appeal of this dough though.  First of all, texture wise, a crispy thin bottom with moist crumb on the edges just is super appealing to me and all of us here.  As for the flavor and the use of honey...I'm thinking Peter is exactly right regarding the use of sugar in a longer fermented dough.......but.......I have also found that depending on what you top your pizza with, you can actually taste the deep flavor of honey....I just think it gets hidden sometimes by other flavors......Yesterday, I made a pizza with smoked chicken, green pepper, onion and ranch....and with me not mentioning honey, all five of the people who ate it commented on the flavor of honey.  It's not what makes or breaks the pizza, it's just an observation.  I'm going to do some more work freezing doughs, maybe not this dough in particular...but I've found my crew is getting to like another modified New York style recipe, and I'm thinking of making 10 or 20, freezing them, and then using when we want.

Here's our pizza from yesterday.....7 days in the fridge.....reball 5 hours prior to bake

Good luck Norma
john


John,

I know you havenít experienced the problems I am having with the reballs and stretching.  I donít know if I am not experienced enough with higher hydration doughs, or what my problems are.  I usually post all my pictures from beginning of making a dough ball to the end pizzas, so maybe someone can help me diagnose what I am doing wrong or if someone else wants to try what I do, they can see the whole process, whether I do it right or wrong. If I makes mistakes, then I also donít want other members to have to go down that path, if they donít have to.

I will see if I can get the kinks worked out, either with my method of making the hybrid Reinhart or knowing when my dough is ready.  Then I will freeze some dough balls.

I find your comments interesting about taste qualitites and mouthfeel of the hybrid dough pizzas.  Maybe either I havenít used the right combinations of dressings or havenít tasted enough of the hybrid Reinhart pizzas to determine if I can taste the honey in the finished crust.  What brand of honey are you using?  Do you think each kind of honey that is used makes any difference?  I have used two kinds so far.  They are both local honeys.  The one is a raw and unprocessed honey and the other is a wildflower honey.  I think, but am not sure, that the raw unprocessed honey gave me better results.  That was from the dough I made in the UBM.

Your hybrid Reinhart pizza looks amazing!  ;D Thanks for all your help and best luck!  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 03:12:48 PM by norma427 »
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