Author Topic: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market  (Read 7749 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2011, 10:50:13 PM »
The hybrid Reinhart dough was really nice to work with today.  I donít know why, but the dough felt like a lower hydration dough.  I didnít use much flour to open the dough ball today.  The dough ball opened up so nice and the baked pizza had a nice moist crumb, nice oven spring and also a crispy bottom crust.  In my opinion and Steveís, the pizza made today was the best so far.

Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2011, 10:53:24 PM »
Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2011, 10:55:15 PM »
Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2011, 10:57:04 PM »
Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2011, 10:58:32 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2011, 11:04:51 PM »
Norma,

I'm glad to see that the latest experiment was such a success. Did your tasters get a chance to try out the pizza and, if so, what were their reactions?

Where do you go with this next?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2011, 11:38:49 PM »
Norma,

I'm glad to see that the latest experiment was such a success. Did your tasters get a chance to try out the pizza and, if so, what were their reactions?

Where do you go with this next?

Peter

Peter,

I also was glad the experiment today went so well. The hybrid Reinhart dough handled so beautifully.  I think we only gave a few taste testers samples.  They didnít really comment much today, because it was really hot.  They had also tasted our other experimental pizzas, so I think they were too full or hot to bother much.  Everyone is on slow, when the weather was this hot at market.  Steve and I both took two slices home to reheat, to see how the slices reheat.  I did place two slices in the holding cabinet, and after 2 or more hrs. the rim was still nice and soft.  

I am not sure where I am going to go next, but might try a five dough ball batch on Friday, to see if I can get the same results.  The only problem when making the dough at market and getting a finished low dough temperature, is I am going to have to put really cold water in the mix, because it is supposed to be higher in temperatures Friday, than today.  

I really donít understand why I didnít have to use a lot of flour today to open the dough ball.  I only dusted the dough ball like I normally dust my preferment Lehmann dough balls.  That had me stumped too, how the dough felt today.  Steve and I couldnít believe the hydration was as high as it was.  

Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2011, 11:47:43 PM »
Norma,

Along with using cold water, you might also consider lowering the amount of yeast. Have you been using 0.50% IDY? If so, that is a lot of yeast for a four day dough in a high-temperature environment. Maybe you can test a low yeast application with only a single dough ball for the time being.

Peter

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2011, 12:10:46 AM »
Norma,

Along with using cold water, you might also consider lowering the amount of yeast. Have you been using 0.50% IDY? If so, that is a lot of yeast for a four day dough in a high-temperature environment. Maybe you can test a low yeast application with only a single dough ball for the time being.

Peter

Peter,

I have been using 0.50% IDY in the hybrid Reinhart dough mixes.  That is why I thought I would try a lower final dough temperature, and I also put the dough right into the refrigerator after the mix.  The dough sure didnít spend much time in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  Probably only about 3 minutes.

I might follow your suggestion for using a lower IDY yeast application.  What would you suggest for the amount of IDY to try?  I would like to mix the dough at market, to see what happens and might take my Kitchen Aid mixer to market on Friday.  Maybe I will only try one dough ball for this week.  It is supposed to be 101 degrees F on Friday, so that should give some kind of test is the hybrid Reinhart dough can be mixed in those high temperatures.

Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2011, 08:06:24 AM »
Norma,

Out of curiosity, I wondered what water temperature you would need to make a dough at market at an ambient temperature of around 100 degrees F to get a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F. My first thought was to use the table that RoadPizza provided at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11726.msg108395.html#msg108395 and to assume that your Hobart mixer has the same friction factor, 25 degrees F, as embodied in RoadPizza's chart. Unfortunately, that chart does not get above 90 degrees F. So, I used the general method that Tom Lehmann set forth in the article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. Using Tom's calculation with a room and flour temperature of 100 degrees F and a friction factor of 25, I came up with a water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F of 15 degrees F. That is considerably colder than ice cubes. Even if your mixer were frictionless with a friction factor of 0, which we know is not possible, you would need a water temperature of 40 degrees F.

My recollection is that many moons ago, when you asked me for help coming up with a Lehmann NY style dough formulation for use at market, we tried to calculate the friction factor for your mixer. However, I do not recall what that value was for the batch size that you had in mind at the time. Either way, I think you will have a hard time getting a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F in your market environment. Some might suggest that you use frozen flour and a cold mixer bowl and hook/beater to solve the problem. However, when I tried that on a couple of occasions, I found that the flour rose to room temperature fairly quickly once it came out of the freezer and dough was made from it. Obviously, resorting to tactics like these are not something that one would relish doing, particularly in a commercial setting.

In terms of amount of IDY that might be used in your very high temperature environment, I think I would go with about 0.25%. That is just my best guess at the moment since I have never found myself having to make a dough at a room temperature that is approaching 100 degrees F. Hopefully you next batch of dough will tell us if that value helps solve the problem.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 04:15:04 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2011, 09:34:31 AM »
Norma,

Out of curiosity, I wondered what water temperature you would need to make a dough at market at an ambient temperature of around 100 degrees F to get a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F. My first thought was to use the table that RoadPizza provided at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11726.msg108395.html#msg108395 and to assume that your Hobart mixer has the same friction factor, 25 degrees F, as embodied in RoadPizza's chart. Unfortunately, that chart does not get above 90 degrees F. So, I used the general method that Tom Lehmann set forth in the article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. Using Tom's calculation with a room and flour temperature of 100 degrees F and a friction factor of 25, I came up with a water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F of 15 degrees F. That is considerably colder than ice cubes. Even if your mixer were frictionless with a friction factor of 0, which we know is not possible, you would need a water temperature of 40 degrees F.

My recollection is that many moons ago, when you asked me for help coming up with a Lehmann NY style dough formulation for use at market, we tried to calculate the friction factor for your mixer. However, I do not recall what that value was for the batch size that you had in mind at the time. Either way, I think you will have a hard time getting a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F in your market environment. Some might suggest that you use frozen flour and a cold mixer bowl and hook/beater to solve the problem. However, when I tried that on a couple of occasions, I found that the flour rose to room temperature fairly quickly once it came out of the freezer and dough was made from it. Obviously, resorting to tactics like these are not something that one would relish doing, particularly in a commercial setting.

In terms of amount of IDY that might be used in your very high temperature environment, I think I would go with about 0.25%. That is just my best guess at the moment since I have never found myself having to make a dough at a room temperature that is approaching 100 degrees F. Hopefully you next batch of dough will tell us if that value helps solve the problem.

Peter




Peter,

Thanks for the links for RoadPizza and Tom Lehmann.  I donít remember, or even know what my Hobart friction factor is.  I also think it will be hard to get a final dough temperature of 80 degrees or below, especially since the temperatures are so hot right now.  When I made my preferment Lehamnn dough recently, my preferment part is cold from the deli case and also I use water stored in the deli case to get a lower dough temperature.  Without the cold preferment it will be hard to achieve a low dough temperature as I did at home, where it is air-conditioned.  Market doughs always give me problems in one way or another, because there are so many fluctuations in temperatures, as you already know.  Yesterday right near the oven the temperatures were over 100 degrees F, but at least I wonít have to deal with the oven when I make the dough.  Any utensil, container, flour, mixing bowl, etc. will already be the heat of market, so everything is challenging. 

I will go with 0.25% IDY, in a one dough ball attempt made at market.  I will report back what my finished dough temperature is.

Thanks for your help!

Norma

EDIT (3/22/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the article by Tom Lehmann, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090728230927/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 11:16:03 AM by Pete-zza »
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2011, 03:04:33 PM »
Norma
Congratulations on getting the dough to work for you.  I'm wondering if your reballing with flour might be one of the reasons you're not having the sticking problems.  As for mixing your dough at market, have you and Peter thought of refrigerating your flour and then also using an ice water?  I feel for ya working in the heat...this is my 37th year of working with ovens in the summer time....and I have to tell you....I detest it!!  Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.  Just one thought for you.....if you decide to use refrigerated flour and ice water, you might leave the yeast alone so you can see what does what...just a thought

Best wishes
John

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2011, 03:34:53 PM »
As for mixing your dough at market, have you and Peter thought of refrigerating your flour and then also using an ice water?  I feel for ya working in the heat...this is my 37th year of working with ovens in the summer time....and I have to tell you....I detest it!!  Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.  Just one thought for you.....if you decide to use refrigerated flour and ice water, you might leave the yeast alone so you can see what does what...just a thought

John,

Go back three posts, to Reply 89.

Peter

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2011, 03:40:39 PM »
Norma
Congratulations on getting the dough to work for you.  I'm wondering if your reballing with flour might be one of the reasons you're not having the sticking problems.  As for mixing your dough at market, have you and Peter thought of refrigerating your flour and then also using an ice water?  I feel for ya working in the heat...this is my 37th year of working with ovens in the summer time....and I have to tell you....I detest it!!  Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.  Just one thought for you.....if you decide to use refrigerated flour and ice water, you might leave the yeast alone so you can see what does what...just a thought

Best wishes
John

John,

Thanks for the congrats on the hybrid Reinhart dough working, but I am not sure if I can get consistent results.  I used very little flour it the reball, and also in opening the skin, but I can understand flour might have helped, instead of oil, especially in the reball.

I also detest working in the heat, but I have done it many years, at market, fairs and festivals, before I even had the pizza stand at market.  When I had worked beside a caramel corn burner all day, the temperatures were even hotter.  I feel for you too, working beside those hot ovens, but at least we can still can work in the heat.  

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2011, 07:31:57 PM »
John,

Go back three posts, to Reply 89.

Peter
See what I mean with this hot weather...it really cuts down on my reading time.. Thanks Peter!

John

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2011, 03:35:20 PM »
I donít know if anyone could say I had success with the hybrid Reinhart dough today at market or not, but at least it seemed okay to me.  

Since it was so hot today, I decided to go about mixing the dough the easiest way I could, to get a lower final dough temperature.  I also wanted to keep in line with Johnís methods (KISS), of making the hybrid Reinhart dough as simply as I could.  I weighed all the ingredients but the water, and put the salt and IDY on separate sides of the flour. I then took cold water out of my deli case and added the honey.  Of course the honey didnít want to dissolve well in the cold water, so I just put it into the mixer the way it was and dumped all the other ingredients in except the olive oil.  I used my flat beater again,with my Kitchen Aid mixer, which I took along to market.  The dough was only mixed until it came together and then rested two minutes and then mixed again with the flat beater.  I added the oil and mixed again with the flat beater.  The final dough temperature was 77.6 degrees F or 83.3 degrees F, all depending on if I went by my digital thermometer or my digital IR thermometer.  The dough was lightly floured and made into a dough ball.  I then lightly coated the dough ball with olive oil and put it into the deli case. The dough ball will remain in the deli case until Monday when I will do a reball.  It was a little over 90 degrees F inside market today and outside it was 100 degrees F, when I was at market.  It did become hotter after I was at market for awhile, cleaning and mixing the preferment part of the Lehmann dough.

The first picture is of a slice of the hybrid Reinhart pizza I reheated on Thursday, that was made this past Tuesday.  The slice did  reheat well.  The rest of the pictures are from today.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 03:39:13 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2011, 03:36:22 PM »
Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2011, 03:37:13 PM »
Norma
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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2011, 06:52:55 PM »
Well, it looks like you were successful keeping the dough on the cool side Norma....I'd say that's a victory!!!

John

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Re: Johnís (fazzari) Hybrid Reinhart Dough to be Tried at Market
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2011, 07:43:56 PM »
Well, it looks like you were successful keeping the dough on the cool side Norma....I'd say that's a victory!!!

John

John,

Thanks, for saying you think it was a victory that the dough temperature stayed a little lower.  I was trying to follow your KISS method of making things easier.  :) I still donít know what will happen with this dough because I mixed it as fast as I could.  It did look okay though, but I wonít know until Tuesday how the dough will perform. 

This is the formula I used if anyone is interested.  I also wanted to post I used KASL as the flour in the formula. 

Norma
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