Author Topic: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen  (Read 7229 times)

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Offline Botch

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Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« on: June 18, 2011, 04:36:50 PM »
Just watched this PBS cooking show and they did something to develop their own Chicago-style crust that I haven't seen done with pizza crust before.
After the first rise, they rolled the dough out into a large rectangle, and then spread 3 tablespoons of soft butter evenly over the rectangle.  The rectangle was rolled up into a tight cylinder, and then rolled out flat again.  This resulted in a sheet of dough with many layers of butter/dough/butter/dough/etc.  I've seen pies and pastries made this way before, but never a pizza crust.  Might be something I'll try next winter when grilling season is over.   :chef:
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2011, 05:41:29 PM »
Botch,

On a few occasions, I played around with a lamination of several skins with butter between the skins, as discussed, for example, in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5886.msg50411.html#msg50411.

Peter

Offline Botch

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2011, 05:54:07 PM »
Thanks Peter; I did a search on "Chicago America Test Kitchen" and didn't get any hits, but figured it'd been done by someone before. 
I cook with wine.  Sometimes I even add it to the food.  - W. C. Fields

Offline jcg

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 06:08:39 PM »
I did a quick pass at trying to convert the ATK recipe to the dough calculator. They used 3 1/4 cup flour plus 1/2 cup semolina. I measured 1/2 cup of my Bob's Red Mill semolina flour and it weighed ~82 grams (2.93 oz), and ATK said that 3 1/4 cups flour is ~16.25 oz, so my total flour of 19.22 works out just about right. They also used 1 1/4 cups water so my 10.09 oz is also very close. Plus all the other measurements come out to match their recipe that made two 9" pizzas. The dough calculator settings were, thickness factor .14 (the dough did look kind of thick on the show), dough balls 2, 2" up sides of pan, hydration 52.5%, bowl residue 0%. The 3T of melted butter is what they used in the main dough before they added 4T of cool butter (so it is just spreadable) to the top of the rolled out dough (after the first rise). The recipe below matches the 3T of melted butter. Does it look like I did this correctly?

Flour (100%):    544.93 g  |  19.22 oz | 1.2 lbs
Water (52.5%):    286.09 g  |  10.09 oz | 0.63 lbs
ADY (1.5%):    8.17 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.16 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
Salt (1.25%):    6.81 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.42 tsp | 0.47 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (8%):    43.59 g | 1.54 oz | 0.1 lbs | 9.22 tsp | 3.07 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    8.17 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.05 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
Total (164.75%):   897.77 g | 31.67 oz | 1.98 lbs | TF = 0.14
Single Ball:   448.88 g | 15.83 oz | 0.99 lbs

jcg
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 06:59:13 PM by jcg »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 06:51:35 PM »
jcg,

I am away from my home base with an iPad that, unfortunately, does not have Flash functionality to allow me to run your numbers through the deep-dish dough calculating tool, but based on your explanation of the numbers entered into the tool it looks like you did everything correctly.

I believe you meant to say in the text of your post that you used a thickness factor of 0.14, not 1.4. You used the correct number in the tool.

Peter

Offline jcg

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 07:01:01 PM »
Yes I meant .14 and corrected the error in my post. I'm thinking of trying this recipe to see if it fixes any of the issues I posted about in my last Zachary's attempt (if you get a chance hopefully you can reply to that thread).

jcg

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 08:50:23 PM »
jcg,

I am away from home at the moment but will respond to your other posts upon my return.

Peter

Offline jcg

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 10:04:53 PM »
OK, also after doing the baker's formula and watching the ATK episode again (I have it Tivo'ed) I'm thinking that this technique might not be the answer to the problems with my other dough (like I postulated in the other thread). I posted in that thread some of my new thoughts / questions. I went back into the dough calculator and kept everything the same, but wanted to see what % of butter I would need to get the extra 4T they spread on the dough and it turns out that the I had to bump the butter from 8% to 20%. I'm not sure if that is the right way to do it but it should be somewhat close. So that would make the total hydration (water + oils/butter) of the ATK 72.5% which I think is very high, right? I made my first DD pizza about a month ago after finding this forum and posted about that in the Lou Malnati thread (as I used BTB's latest recipe, and it was very good!) and that has a total hydration of 69%. I believe the Zachary dough is probably a very low hydration dough but still need to figure that out.

jcg

Offline Pizzamaster

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2011, 12:24:26 AM »
Isit me or does using butter in the dough seem wrong?

Offline katef

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 02:58:24 PM »
My husband and I tried this recipe and we were not impressed, at all.  We found the crust to be very bland and an unappealing combination of corn bread and white bread. 

Maybe someone else had a better result.


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 03:11:47 PM »
Actually, if you go back a few years ago, you might remember when Tony's introduced its Italian Pastry Crust Pizza. This was sold in the frozen food case at your local supermarket. It was a type of laminated crust, but rather than putting the fat onto the dough as an unbroken layer, it was added in the form of hard fat flakes and mixed into the dough toward the end of the dough mixing cycle, then, during the dough processing (forming) it was given several simple folds and reduced it thickness to about 3/16-inch, and die cut into skins of target diameter. During baking, the dough delaminated, and also produced voids where the fat flakes were, resulting in a finished crust with pastry like characteristics. Around this same time we saw pizzas that were made on a croissant dough base, made exactly as you have described, or very close to it.
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Offline Klankster

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 05:26:53 PM »
My wife saw this ATK episode come up this morning and she knows how much I love Chicago-style pizza, so she recorded it for me and I just watched it.  I'm kind of intrigued -- it is very close to the recipe I have used for Chicago-style pizza for several years now except the use of butter instead of corn+olive oil and of course the jelly-roll treatment with soft butter slathered on it.  I'll try it this weekend.

I like my recipe, which I found at http://www.pizzamaking.com/deepdish.php -- but a recent trip to Chicago and the original Pizzeria Uno location has me looking to improve on it.  The pizza I had there had a "fluffier" crust that was awesome, and I'd like to be able to get that quality.

Funny story -- when I got back from the Chicago trip and started thinking about dough recipe improvements, I went ahead and googled "uno pizza dough recipe" just in case something good came up.  I stumbled on the Uno Chicago Grill website's recipe at http://www.unos.com/about/press/2009/0109_1.html.  The first thing that struck me was the lack of any corn meal in the recipe which was a real red flag -- The first time at the original Uno back in 1990, I was impressed by the corn meal taste and texture -- how could their "master recipe" NOT have corn meal in it?

Well, I made that crust anyway -- and it was AWFUL.  Very bread-like and the texture was completely unlike the original Uno crust.  I should have known better than to think they'd publish their actual dough recipe.

I'll post an update after I try the ATK recipe this weekend.
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Offline loowaters

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2011, 09:45:44 PM »
Klankster, regarding the Uno's recipe, they never had corn meal in their formulation.  Good luck with the ATK recipe and post pics if you can.

Loo
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2011, 09:07:12 AM »
Some of the things that we do to product the typical Chicago style crust are as follows:
Dough absorption around 55% (will vary with absorption requirements of the flour).
Flour protein content should be around 11%.
Some use corn meal, some don't, it you elect to use corn meal, try 8% based on the flour weight.
For the color, use "egg shade" a type of yellow food coloring.
Bake at 450F and plan on a bake time of 25 to 30-minutes for a thin crust and 40 to 45-minutes for a thick crust pizza.
Assemble with sliced cheese going on first, and sauce going on last.
Can't use anything but RAW sausage in Chicago.
Butter or margarine is commonly used in place of olive oil in the dough.
Margarine is commonly used to grease the pans (Bluebonnet).
Chicago thin crust pizzas are NOT crispy with exception for the very edges.
Always party cut a Chicago style thin crust pizza.
Chicago style pizzas are not laminated. The key to getting that open crumb structure is in allowing the dough to rise in the pan before dressing.

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2011, 09:45:09 AM »
Tom,

Many Chicago deep-dish doughs contain a fair amount of fat/oils. Is there a minimum amount of fat/oil (by percent) below which one would not want to go to achieve the desirable finished dough characteristics of a Chicago deep-dish style? For example, some time ago a member shared with me what he said was a very early version of the Giordano's dough recipe. What surprised me most was the low fat/oil content, at least by present standards.

Peter

Offline BTB

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2011, 11:56:08 AM »
Is it me or does using butter in the dough seem wrong?
Doesn't seem wrong to me at all.  I like to add around 4 to 6% butter, but have come to prefer to add very softened butter -- as opposed to melted butter -- and add it as the last ingredient and just barely incorporate it into the dough mix.  Thus it in effect comes a little close to the lamination effect that way.
 
I stumbled on the Uno Chicago Grill website's recipe at http://www.unos.com/about/press/2009/0109_1.html.  The first thing that struck me was the lack of any corn meal in the recipe which was a real red flag -- The first time at the original Uno back in 1990, I was impressed by the corn meal taste and texture -- how could their "master recipe" NOT have corn meal in it?

For a good number of years now, these threads are full of information that NONE of the classic Chicago Style Deep Dish Pizzerias include corn meal in their recipe formulations (Uno's/Due's/Malnati's/Gino's East/Giordano's/etc).  That doesn't mean, of course, that if you tried it and like it included in the recipe that it isn't OK.  What you and yours like the best is what's all important.  But again, corn meal is NOT included in the crusts of the classic Chicago Deep Dish Pizzas, including the original Pizzeria Uno that you visited.  The internet is full of false information on this.
 
Upon first perking my interest when I earlier saw this ATK recipe, I experimented once with it, having roughly converted it to a baker's weight/percentage for a 9" pizza.  The result was unsatisfactory -- to me at least -- as it didn't seem to resemble any of the great classic Chicago Deep Dish Pizzerias that I knew and enjoyed in the Chicago area for so many years. This includes Lou Malnati's where Cris Kimball started out his TV show with and where he visited with Mark Malnati and viewed the making of their sausage pizza in Malnati's kitchen. The resulting ATK recipe doesn't get remotely close to Malnati's Deep Dish pizza crust IMO, nor any of Chicago's greats.  Like I said before, I admire ATK in general but found their pizza recipes to be "off the mark."
 
While I don't recall all the things that I thought wrong with this recipe (at least for one wanting to somewhat replicate real Chicago Style Deep Dish pizza), one of the glaring problems with it is the total lack of oil, either corn oil, olive oil, or other, in the crust's formulation itself.  Chicago Style Deep Dish has ALOT of oil in the crust . . . ATK's has NONE.  The butter doesn't make up for it.  And while I like some butter in the crust formulation, believe it or not, the classic Chicago Deep Dish pizzerias use little to none in their crusts.  Malnati's generally "brushes" melted butter onto the prepared dough in the pan before "dressing" the pizza (actually only if requested).  But for home Chicago Style Deep Dish pizzamaking, I and my family and friends have come to prefer a little butter directly incorporated into the crust recipe itself.  And, of course, with a lot of oil, too.
 
I think this is similar to the ATK recipe discussed at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9767.0.html .  While they have olive oil listed in the ingredients on their website, it is NOT included in the crust's recipe itself for some (peculiar to me) reason.
 
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« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 03:44:55 PM by BTB »

Offline Klankster

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2011, 02:59:04 PM »
That really is intriguing -- The taste and "mouth feel" of the UNO crust really said "corn meal" to me!  I wonder what I was detecting that gave me that impression.

The ATK episode with the Chicago style crust was interesting to me because I have to admit, eating the UNO pizza I did not think "butter" at all, and the ATK guy seemed to really focus on that (so much so that they really went overboard on the amount of butter they used, IMHO).  I'm willing to try it anyway -- who knows, I might just like it.   ;)

We really need a "mole" to go work at the original UNO location for a while and report on what the real recipe is...

(and watching the ATK show, the olive oil is there to coat the dough ball while rising to prevent it forming a crust, and most is there to coat the pans)
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Online pythonic

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2011, 11:58:50 PM »
I'm wondering if this it what Giordanos does to their dough for their stuffed pizzas.  It's layered like a pastry and tastes like no other pizza crust in chicago.
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Offline BTB

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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2011, 07:47:49 AM »
I'm wondering if this it what Giordanos does to their dough for their stuffed pizzas.  It's layered like a pastry and tastes like no other pizza crust in chicago.
I don't think any of the classic Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias use anything like layering with their doughs.  In the few preparations that I've watched, they just take a pre-made dough ball, flatten it out, and/or put it in the deep dish pan and spread it out -- without anything like a butter-spread, lamination step that ATK talked about.  I doubt it's normally done.
 
But your thought about Giordano's is interesting.  I observed them putting together a pizza in their preparation/oven area (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.msg72200.html#msg72200) and while they do not have a lamination step, I observed some yellow particles in the dough balls after they were put through the sheeter and onto the deep dish pan.  A number of us on these threads wondered what those little yellow particles were, but have no answer on it.  Butter . . . colored shortening . . . what not . . . ?
 
See discussion at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72216.html#msg72216 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72247.html#msg72247 and elsewhere in various threads.
 
ATK's recipe reflects more of a Boston Style deep dish pizza interpretation of a Chicago Style deep dish pizza.  But again -- in my estimation -- ATK is "off the mark."
 
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Re: Chicago crust from America's Test Kitchen
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2011, 02:33:36 AM »
I don't think any of the classic Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias use anything like layering with their doughs.  In the few preparations that I've watched, they just take a pre-made dough ball, flatten it out, and/or put it in the deep dish pan and spread it out -- without anything like a butter-spread, lamination step that ATK talked about.  I doubt it's normally done.
 
But your thought about Giordano's is interesting.  I observed them putting together a pizza in their preparation/oven area (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.msg72200.html#msg72200) and while they do not have a lamination step, I observed some yellow particles in the dough balls after they were put through the sheeter and onto the deep dish pan.  A number of us on these threads wondered what those little yellow particles were, but have no answer on it.  Butter . . . colored shortening . . . what not . . . ?
 
See discussion at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72216.html#msg72216 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg72247.html#msg72247 and elsewhere in various threads.
 
ATK's recipe reflects more of a Boston Style deep dish pizza interpretation of a Chicago Style deep dish pizza.  But again -- in my estimation -- ATK is "off the mark."
 
                                                                                               --BTB         :'(




I went to pick up a stuffed pizza at Giordano's tonight and I saw they had a big fat tub of butter or margarine right next to the dough balls.  Not sure if they are greasing up the pans with it or adding it to the already made dough balls?  But man oh man I just love the taste of their famous crust.  It just never gets old!
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