Author Topic: cold rise  (Read 3495 times)

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Offline mohan

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cold rise
« on: June 21, 2011, 09:07:28 AM »
I've been letting my dough rise in the fridge for several years and think it makes a tastier crust-I learned this from an old pizza maker in the North End of Boston who told ,me that dough is like people-a little bit of adversity makes them more interesting. Is this a good method-does it make a difference in taste-is there any science behind this? ???


Offline Tman1

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 11:08:23 AM »
I don't want to seem like I know everything (by far not the case), but I think it's generally accepted that the longer your dough can ferment the better the taste.
The most recent post I can think of is from fazzari in this thread:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13697.0.html

Personally I haven't done longer than a 24 hour ferment but am looking forward to trying different approaches. Again, I'm not trying to steal any thunder, just me rudimentary observations from reading threads on this site.

Offline Ronzo

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 11:19:46 AM »
Fuggheddabowdit!

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 08:19:56 PM »
Ron that is a great link.  Thanks for posting that.  Tman, I haven't gotten a chance to go through that thread but will do so later.  I'm sure it is a good one as well.

My own and limited personal experience is that it depends on the source of yeast.  I notice a flavor change much more so if I use a starter than commercial yeast.   I have done up to a 6 day cold ferment using IDY and I did not notice a change in flavor of the dough.  I did like the texture of it, but I have also been able to acheive a nearly identical texture in a 4 hour dough made from 40% active starter plus IDY.

I understand that a long slow fermentation whether it be cold or room temperature allows the enzymes to break down more of the starches and proteins.  I can see this creating different flavors in the dough.   It reminds of the test whereby one can take a piece of bread, chew it up, and keep it in your mouth for 10-15 minutes.  You'll notice that the work of the enzymes will create a sweeter taste.  But as far as flavors of byproducts from fermentation when using IDY, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 12 hour dough versus a 48 hour dough.  Starters - definitely.  IDY - maybe if I'm using my imagination and that is reaching.  

It will be interesting to see what Tom says about the subject.

Chau
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 09:48:30 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 09:12:36 PM »
"I've been letting my dough rise in the fridge for several years"

Dude, that is extreme!  Most people only let it rise for a couple of days......

Offline Ronzo

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 09:14:44 PM »
"I've been letting my dough rise in the fridge for several years"

Dude, that is extreme!  Most people only let it rise for a couple of days......
Baddum Bum CHEE!
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Offline plainslicer

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 09:21:41 AM »
But as far as flavors of byproducts from fermentation when using IDY, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 12 hour dough versus a 48 hour dough.  Starters - definitely.  IDY - maybe if I'm using my imagination and that is reaching.

The first time I made "Lazy Man's Bread," I cold-fermented for three days and ended up with a very mild sour flavor--subtle, but definitely there. However, I haven't been able to replicate that the past two times I've done 3+ day cold ferments. I didn't keep notes but I think I used more yeast the first time around as I was originally planning on a one day CF. I made a dough last night to test on Sunday and used more yeast (ADY), so we'll see.

Even when I didn't get the mild sour flavor, there's still something else that's different in the cold fermented dough that I can't put my finger on. I'm not sure if it's a result of the enzyme activity or perhaps a little ester formation but whatever it is, it is a good thing.

Edit: Looking back at my LMB post it turns out I used four days the first time.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 09:29:40 AM by plainslicer »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 10:14:13 AM »
Plainslicer, I have also gotten a sourdough from ADY over a 4 day CF, BUT it tasted identical to a starter dough I made at the same time.  I'm now convinced that I had inadvertantly contiminated that dough somehow with the starter yeast.  I have also left some IDY poolish out at room temps until it overfermented and had acidic notes to it when I tasted it.  I didn't make anything with it though.  

I do think that it could be possible to get flavor from commercial yeast but I haven't been successful.  Now added flavors from enzyme breakdown of starches, yes but it's subtle for me.  I cold ferment mostly for digestibility and convenience rather than flavor.

Chau
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:16:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline chickenparm

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2011, 06:47:40 PM »
Chau,
After some experiments,I'm finding I'm only seeing a noticeable flavor change when using KABF,compared to the other brands I tried.

I thought I was imagining things,but my wife and kids have told me the same thing,the 3 day dough tastes better than the 1 day dough.There is also a slight alcohol smell at times by 3 days,while the first day rise does not have that smell.

However,if I use Bouncer HG flour,I cant tell much of a change in taste,whether its 1-3 days in the fridge.I do not know why the KABF seems to give me those results.I have been using the same IDY yeast for a while,making similar hydration pies,same amount of everything else.AP flour does nothing for me taste wise,I have made doughs with it as well,and dont use it very often.

I have no way to scientifically explain it,but its what happens,so I usually suggest the practice for flavor as well.Maybe it is all in my head sometimes.

:-D







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Offline caseyspizza

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2011, 01:53:32 AM »
i def. see differences in using the same dough batch between the 1st day and 2nd day cold ferment. Most noticeable for me with the two day version is a lighter hole structure and crumb. And the salt seems to stand our more. I also feel there is more residual sugars produced which creates more noticeable "leapard-spotting", browning and/or carmelization on the exterior. For me it's more function, I make 1 big bulk dough on Tuesday for two dinner services on Wed. and Thurs. I ball the dough up for Wednesday immediately from the mixer and cold proof 18 hours. I bulk ferment the Thursday dough and ball up about 30 hours later. I also fire the first in a Little Black Egg and the second in a Baker's Pride countertop oven.  ??? :chef: ::). pics of both are posted here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14339.msg145506.html#msg145506


Offline pjbear05

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2011, 01:48:22 PM »
For my last 4 or 5 Detroit style pizzas I've been doing a cold rise lasting 12-18 hours after mixing.  The dough is then placed on buttered pan (enameled steel) and placed in a barely warm(<100) oven to proof, then topped and baked. 

Just sayin-so far the cold rise for a longer period has beat the shorter time at room temp every time.
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Offline oversee

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Re: cold rise
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 02:03:41 AM »
My dough always sours after more than one day in the refrigerator. I know this because I also make sweet roll dough and if I don't use it promptly, it makes pretty lousy cinnamon rolls.
My husband likes a thin crust, and it is much easier to achieve this with the cold rise. I think it affects the elasticity of the dough. Being from San Francisco, I like the sour taste in my crust.