Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 171236 times)

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Offline msheetrit

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1200 on: January 30, 2012, 05:21:04 PM »
Amazing!
michael

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1201 on: January 30, 2012, 06:11:32 PM »
"Dissolved oxygen is a major contributor to water quality. Not only do fish and other aquatic animals need it, but oxygen breathing aerobic bacteria decompose organic matter. When oxygen concentrations become low, anoxic conditions may develop which can decrease the ability of the water body to support life. Aeration [of water] speeds up this process of oxidizing organic and mineral pollution. . . . By pumping compressed air out to the bottom of a lake, lagoon or pond with the use of a diffuser, the rising air bubbles and the friction caused in the water will bring bottom water to the surface where it is exposed to the atmosphere. Large volumes of water thus release noxious gases to the atmosphere, water picks up oxygen while circulating at the surface. Natural bacteria are stimulated by aeration and circulation. . . ."


Here is extending thought. Oxygen is more soluble in cold water than in warm. For example, 40F water can hold about 45% more oxygen than 70F water.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-solubility-water-d_639.html
http://water.usgs.gov/owq/FieldManual/Chapter6/table6.2_6.pdf

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1202 on: January 30, 2012, 10:29:44 PM »
Omid, this is the email I received from Santos:

Dear Dr Leon,
 
We « could » make it technically, but we did not, for price and strategic reasons (very low demand).
 
Best regards
 

Mr. Nicolas FOUQUET
SANTOS - Technical and Development Manager - General Manager
Tél : +33 4 72 37 35 29 - Fax : +33 4 78 26 58 21
www.santos.fr

_________________________
What do you think?
I am looking into 2 solutions:
  Modifying the US version
  Making 1kitchen outlet compatible with the european electricity

Thanks for your help.
Joel Leon

Dear Leon, I just do not understand Mr. Fouquet's response, which is disobliging toward the assurance he gave me three months ago! I will need to contact him to make some clarifications. If needed, I will pass around a petition. I know many individuals, one of whom is a French citizen residing in Paris (it is not only us in the U.S.), who would consider purchasing the French-made Santos fork mixers under the condition that the RPM is reduced.

In regard to your first proposed solution, modification of the Santos motor is costly: over $4,000.00 dollars, according to two industry experts that I talked to. In addition, I have been told that to achieve the optimum performance, the modification needs to be done by a technician who understands the kind of motor "torque", "momentum", and resultant "turbulence" that is required for mixing and kneading dough. I was informed that mixing needs a different torque than kneading. As you can see, this issue seems to involve more than just an armature that rotates around its axis.

In regard to your second proposed solution, it will only reduce the fork speed from 84 RPM (at 60 hertz) to 70 RPM (at 50 hertz), which is not a substantial diminution in speed.

An electrical engineer, who used to teach electronics at Columbia University until he retired about two decades ago, kindly proposed to me to reduce the motor speed by designing a new circuit ("variable pulse circuit") that would use either a "Silicon Control Rectifier" (SCR) or, better yet, a "TRIAC", which would trigger or send each cycle or pulse to the motor at longer intervals. Another way of expressing this is that, the SCR or TRIAC would cyclically send one pulse, skip the next pulse, send another pulse, skip, and so on. Adjusting the frequency of the power input is certainly a way to slow the motor down. However, using a low frequency such as 30Hz would cut the speed in half but may also cause the motor to heat up excessively. The variable pulse circuit would pulse the motor at a lower than 60Hz rate. That is, the circuit would skip some of the 60Hz power cycles. As a simple example would be to just skip every other cycle to give you an effective 30Hz rate. This should slow the motor down to half speed, while the missing pulses would give the motor time to cool since no current would be applied during the skipped cycles.

At the theoretical level, this sounds like a feasible solution which, according to him, should not cost more than $30.00 dollars to implement. He has already given me the schematic for the circuit, but I have not had the time to find someone to implement it. If you know a competent expert who can do this, I would be glad to email you a copy of the schematic. I thank you for posting the email for everyone to see. Good night!

    
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:45:20 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Drgolf369

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1203 on: January 30, 2012, 10:37:59 PM »
Omid:
I am sure that we will eventually solve this problem, even if it is not easy. Perhaps it is possible to switch out the motor. I should speak to my patient next week and will pass on your info and tell you of  any other options.
Joel

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1204 on: January 30, 2012, 11:06:39 PM »
Omid, didn't you hook your Santos up to a variable power supply at one point? Did that not work?

For kicks and grins, I just hooked an old drill up to my Variac and it smoothly lowered the RPM of the drill as I lowered the voltage feed.

I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about AC motors. Is there a reason this is not a viable solution?

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1205 on: January 31, 2012, 03:04:33 AM »
Amazing!


Thank you!

Here is extending thought. Oxygen is more soluble in cold water than in warm. For example, 40F water can hold about 45% more oxygen than 70F water.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-solubility-water-d_639.html
http://water.usgs.gov/owq/FieldManual/Chapter6/table6.2_6.pdf

CL


Dear Craig, that is valuable data. The correlation between water temperature, pressure, and solubility of oxygen in water is quite interesting, to say the least. Also, the www.engineeringtoolbox.com is a useful website as a whole. I like technical websites that get right to the crux of matter in a simple, easy-to-understand language. Thank you!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1206 on: January 31, 2012, 03:35:59 AM »
Omid, didn't you hook your Santos up to a variable power supply at one point? Did that not work?
For kicks and grins, I just hooked an old drill up to my Variac and it smoothly lowered the RPM of the drill as I lowered the voltage feed.
I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about AC motors. Is there a reason this is not a viable solution?

CL

Dear Craig, I never utilized a variable power supply (VPS), although I almost purchased one. I know some members here tried it without success. Also, I was strongly advised by an expert not to try it lest I excessively heat up and damage the motor. The reason that VPS is not a viable solution is that the Santos motor is a "capacitor-start, single-phase, asynchronous, AC motor". About 4 or 5 months ago I knew what that meant, but now I do not seem to remember! Back then, I spent many hours at UCSD library educating myself about AC motors. One thing that I still remember is that these motors are lot more complex than they seem. Also, I learned that without the AC/DC motors and petroleum, the world economy would come to a halt. True! Good night.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 02:12:53 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1207 on: February 01, 2012, 05:18:10 PM »
Earlier today, I asked the oven builder Giuseppe Crisa, if it is possible to finish his Forno Piccolo oven with black tiles, and he emailed me the two pictures below. How elegant!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Online scott123

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1208 on: February 01, 2012, 05:33:50 PM »
It's a pretty tile, job, but, as I said before, the door is too big and the dome is too tall on that oven. I hope no one here is considering purchasing it.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1209 on: February 01, 2012, 05:44:06 PM »
Here is extending thought. Oxygen is more soluble in cold water than in warm. For example, 40F water can hold about 45% more oxygen than 70F water.


Craig, water can hold oxygen, but oxygen cannot hold water? :-\
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1210 on: February 01, 2012, 07:08:52 PM »
It's a pretty tile, job, but, as I said before, the door is too big and the dome is too tall on that oven. I hope no one here is considering purchasing it.

Dear Scott, you seem to have intimate knowledge of the Forno Piccolo! Have you ever used a Forno Piccolo? Since I am considering to buy one, please allow me to ask you: What are the indisputable facts, the rationale, and the degree of certainty underlying your judgment (i.e., "I hope no one here is considering purchasing it")?

Since you asserted "the door is too big and the dome is too tall", does this imply that you have compared the Forno Piccolo with the Neapolitan oven? If yes, could you please articulate your justification for such a comparison and the factors that you have compared between the two ovens? Have you personally operated a Neapolitan oven?

Also, does your assertion indicate that you have compared the Forno Piccolo with another oven of the same rank? If so, what oven is that? Do you have hands-on experience with the oven? And, could you please compare the door sizes and the dome heights so I can have some ideas as to how "bigger" the door size and how "taller" the dome height of the Forno Piccolo is in comparison to the oven that you have in mind?

At last, please, specify the undesirable effects of Forno Piccolo's, as you put it, "big door" and "tall dome", in addition to the extant correlation/causation between the effects and the big door and tall dome. I thank you in advance for your time and diligence in articulating a well-detailed feedback. Have a great day!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 01:53:24 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Tman1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1211 on: February 01, 2012, 07:18:55 PM »
In the reading I've done regarding pompeii style ovens, the door height is supposed to be approximately 63% of the dome height. 

Offline shuboyje

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1212 on: February 01, 2012, 09:22:34 PM »

An electrical engineer, who used to teach electronics at Columbia University until he retired about two decades ago, kindly proposed to me to reduce the motor speed by designing a new circuit ("variable pulse circuit") that would use either a "Silicon Control Rectifier" (SCR) or, better yet, a "TRIAC", which would trigger or send each cycle or pulse to the motor at longer intervals. Another way of expressing this is that, the SCR or TRIAC would cyclically send one pulse, skip the next pulse, send another pulse, skip, and so on. Adjusting the frequency of the power input is certainly a way to slow the motor down. However, using a low frequency such as 30Hz would cut the speed in half but may also cause the motor to heat up excessively. The variable pulse circuit would pulse the motor at a lower than 60Hz rate. That is, the circuit would skip some of the 60Hz power cycles. As a simple example would be to just skip every other cycle to give you an effective 30Hz rate. This should slow the motor down to half speed, while the missing pulses would give the motor time to cool since no current would be applied during the skipped cycles.

At the theoretical level, this sounds like a feasible solution which, according to him, should not cost more than $30.00 dollars to implement. He has already given me the schematic for the circuit, but I have not had the time to find someone to implement it. If you know a competent expert who can do this, I would be glad to email you a copy of the schematic. I thank you for posting the email for everyone to see. Good night!
   

If the motor is indeed Capacitor start this may very well control the motor speed, but it will not address the issue of the internal switch which controls the start winding and without addressing that it will not function properly.

Quote
In the reading I've done regarding pompeii style ovens, the door height is supposed to be approximately 63% of the dome height.
It's not the height that is the concern with small ovens, it is the door width.  The door can only be so small, it needs to be big enough to load a pizza, so as the oven gets smaller and the door hits it's minimum usable size the ratio of door to oven can really get out of whack.  
 
-Jeff

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1213 on: February 01, 2012, 09:28:27 PM »
I would like to debate the door width issue.  The door height determines how much "heat" is stored before it spills out the front or to the exhaust.  The door width has very little to do with stored "heat" and only functions to let more oxygen get to the fire.


still learning-
Jet
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1214 on: February 01, 2012, 09:29:53 PM »
I really like the black tile.  :)

CL
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1215 on: February 01, 2012, 09:39:41 PM »
When it comes to thermal efficiency the door is a pizza ovens biggest fault.  It is a giant gapping uninsulated hole that lets heat escape and unconditioned air to enter.  The bigger the door the less efficient the oven.  Look at other high temperature ovens.  There is no big oepn door in a kiln, there is no big open door in a heat treating oven, there is no big open door in a metal melting foundry.  It's not a coincidence. 

The general rule of thumb for small ovens is to keep the door width to half the oven diameter.  At 36" that allows for a 18" door, at 30" you still have a 15" door.  Once you go smaller then that the door begins to become too small to be usable and you have to leave the ration behind.  It goes the other way in larger ovens.  With my 42" oven the 18" door is under half.  Unless you plan to do huge 20" pizzas there isn't much reason to go bigger then 18".
-Jeff

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1216 on: February 02, 2012, 03:18:16 AM »
At last, please, specify the undesirable effects of Forno Piccolo's, as you put it, "big door" and "tall dome", in addition to the extant correlation/causation between the effects and the big door and tall dome.


Jeff covered the issues with the door.  Here's some reading on dome height:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1118.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13990.0.html

While there is some disagreement over what the proper ratio of dome height to diameter is, from the photos I'm seeing, this oven looks a lot like it could be close to 1:1. That, to me is unacceptable. While I don't agree with some members who feel like you have to have an Italian oven to make Neapolitan pizza, I do feel that you need to have something with a similar internal shape- and this oven does not qualify.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1217 on: February 02, 2012, 06:07:07 AM »
. . . As I said before, the door is too big and the dome is too tall on that oven. I hope no one here is considering purchasing it.


Dear Scott, you seem to have intimate knowledge of the Forno Piccolo! Have you ever used a Forno Piccolo? Since I am considering to buy one, please allow me to ask you: What are the indisputable facts, the rationale, and the degree of certainty underlying your judgment (i.e., "I hope no one here is considering purchasing it")?

Since you asserted "the door is too big and the dome is too tall", does this imply that you have compared the Forno Piccolo with the Neapolitan oven? If yes, could you please articulate your justification for such a comparison and the factors that you have compared between the two ovens? Have you personally operated a Neapolitan oven?

Also, does your assertion indicate that you have compared the Forno Piccolo with another oven of the same rank? If so, what oven is that? Do you have hands-on experience with the oven? And, could you please compare the door sizes and the dome heights so I can have some ideas as to how "bigger" the door size and how "taller" the dome height of the Forno Piccolo is in comparison to the oven that you have in mind?

At last, please, specify the undesirable effects of Forno Piccolo's, as you put it, "big door" and "tall dome", in addition to the extant correlation/causation between the effects and the big door and tall dome. I thank you in advance for your time and diligence in articulating a well-detailed feedback. Have a great day!


Jeff covered the issues with the door.  Here's some reading on dome height:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1118.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13990.0.html

While there is some disagreement over what the proper ratio of dome height to diameter is, from the photos I'm seeing, this oven looks a lot like it could be close to 1:1. That, to me is unacceptable. While I don't agree with some members who feel like you have to have an Italian oven to make Neapolitan pizza, I do feel that you need to have something with a similar internal shape- and this oven does not qualify.


Scott123, if you were the judge on a murder case in a court of law, what kinds of evidence do you expect the plaintiff and defendant to present you with? How would you weigh the evidences? How would you establish the reliability of the evidences? Would you allow hearsay evidences? How about circumstantial evidences? In short, how would you establish the admissibility of the evidences and the certainty of the arguments put forth by the counsels for the opposing parties? Well . . . you have already issued the guilty verdict: "I hope no one here is considering purchasing [a Forno Piccolo]". I hope your judgment was based on prudence and justice—and your humanity!

"True wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing, for if you think you know everything, then you are not likely to question your assumptions." —Socrates

"It is not death that we should escape from but wretchedness, for it runs faster than death." —Socrates

"When you are not in possession of all the pertinent facts that are certain and indubitable, suspend your judgment lest you fall in error." —Rene Descartes

"The judgments we make reflect the values we live by. . . . When you point your judgmental finger at someone, pay heed that three fingers, hiding beneath the index finger, are pointing at yourself! In other words, 'judge not lest you be judged'." —Patrick Pidgeon
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 03:29:51 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1218 on: February 02, 2012, 02:58:48 PM »
I am reminded of a quote from Mark Twain: A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1219 on: February 02, 2012, 03:03:00 PM »
"Recently, I went to Forno Classico and met the Sicilian oven-builder Giuseppe Crisa. With my own dough, I tested one of his Piccolos, which was designed with a smaller mouth/opening than usual. I was impressed with the results. We shall see! Happy holidays to you and your family."
 omid, i did not hit the quote button you had made mention of some improvements you were working on with the company to make it a better pizza baking oven in the small piccolo size.


 



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