Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 181759 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1220 on: February 02, 2012, 03:18:19 PM »
"When you are not in possession of all the pertinent facts that are certain and indubitable, suspend your judgment lest you fall in error." —Rene Descartes

Robert Heller offers what may be a good corollary and pertinent to this discussion: Never ignore a gut feeling, but never believe that it's enough.

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1221 on: February 02, 2012, 08:03:21 PM »
Descartes did not live in a digital world.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1222 on: February 02, 2012, 08:05:55 PM »
Dear friends, I thank you all very much for all your comments and guidances. Please, allow me to propound some thoughts that may or may not prove to be instrumental in scrutinizing small and mobile wood-fired ovens. Am I fundamentally correct in thinking that a small size WFO is more than just the "doom height" and "door size"? Without diminishing the importance of the aforementioned factors, should we not also take into consideration other contributing factors that interact with the doom height and door size in operation of a small WFO? (I am not insinuating that you respectable members have omitted such considerations; I am trying to bring such factors to the foreground.) Verily, the dome height and door size do not function in isolation from the rest of the factors that help to constitute a small WFO: the materials used in the oven, the thermal properties of the materials, the type and thickness of the insulation, the geometric configuration of the oven, the mass of the oven, the distribution of the mass, how the mass is conducive in charging the oven's thermal battery and in maintaining the floor and dome temperatures, the oven's inhalation of oxygen and exhalation of exhaust, how small the mouth can be without causing fire-hiccups, and more. If the oven is an interactional and dynamic system, these factors do not appear to function in isolation from one another; hence, their symbiosis should be examined closely.

Accordingly, since my knowledge is limited in this sphere, I traveled to Giuseppe Crisa in Santa Barbara and put his oven to an empirical test. Given the type of dough I used, the size of the oven, and other extant circumstance at the time, I was satisfied with the results in relation to that particular oven only. Of course, this does not mean that anybody else would have drawn the same level of satisfaction. Not at all, my satisfaction could be a personal illusion (ill + use of judgment)!

Dear Thezaman, please allow me to kindly make a correction, that I do not work and have never worked with or for Giuseppe Crisa at any capacities, including making oven improvements of any sort. My dear friend, I do not think that my knowledge would stretch that far!

At last, I would like to point out that although Scott123's judgment does not seem to be based on solid foundation at this point in time, that does not mean the judgment is not cogent or valid! At this juncture, what is at stake is not merely the judgment itself—but the character, attitude, motivation, and the process of thought that begot such self-assuredly authoritative and admonishing judgment.

Ill use of judgments can be quite consequential toward the wellbeing and livelihood of others. I must keep this in mind at all times! It is easy to have beliefs, but difficult to challenge them. As Friedrich Nietzsche puts it:

"At every step one has to wrestle for truth; one has to surrender for it almost everything to which the heart, to which our love, our trust in life, cling otherwise. That requires greatness of soul: the service of truth is the hardest service."

Good day friends!

Regards,
Omid
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline pizza dr

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1223 on: February 03, 2012, 12:11:57 AM »
Omid

Some of the best pizzas I have ever seen on this forum (and otherwise) have been from your modified gas oven.  You took your conditions that you had on hand ( a regular gas oven), modified it , tested ad nauseum, modified again and again and finally have come up with something that IMHO has been an inspiration to us all. 

Now I don't know anything about dome heights and door widths, but I do know this.  If there is a fire in that thing that can generate some heat, you will figure out how to make that oven sing.

I look forward to the journey!

Scot

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1224 on: February 03, 2012, 02:59:20 PM »
Omid

Some of the best pizzas I have ever seen on this forum (and otherwise) have been from your modified gas oven. 
Scot

I agree 100% Scot. But when I saw the pictures of Omid's dough cooked in Peter's Stefano Ferrara, I have been wanting to see more of Omid's pizzas cooked in such an environment.

Quote
If the oven is an interactional and dynamic system these factors do not appear to function in isolation from one another; hence, their symbiosis should be examined closely.

Omid, there is no "if" about it.

Omid, what exactly is the reasoning you are looking to purchase a small and/or mobile wood-fired pizza oven?  Is it to more closely approximate the conditions you are ultimately looking to work in on a more regular basis? Or for some other reason?

If it is the former, I would argue you need to also consider volume, since that is a major factor a fornaio needs to deal with in a commercial establishment. Juggling 3 or more pizzas at a time in a hot, WFO is an attention and focus demanding endeavor!. And that requires size. I've personally met a handful of people with small WFOs in their backyard (one installed in their indoor kitchen!).  Keep in mind I would potentially consider doing bad things to have such an oven myself  :) :-[ >:D  ...but my nonexistent inner-city backyard precludes me from getting a small WFO.

Still, one of the commonalities among these people is that while they are all tremendously happy with their ovens, they all wish they were larger. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1225 on: February 03, 2012, 03:18:14 PM »
Pizzablogger,
I think you should quit while you are behind.
I have learned from your recent posts that my 6 months of building my oven, along with the 3 years of pizza making have all been wasted.
I have obviously built an oven that is too small, as well as having an opening wholly unsuited to pizza production.

What a pity.
I am in the process of writing a note of apology to all those guests, friends and family that have had to endure a clearly inferior product.
Tonight I will begin the process of dismantling my oven.

I'm not sure which philosopher is credited with this quote:
"Those who can do, make pizza..those that can't do.....BLOG about it"

Oh, now I remember who made that quote...I did.

As for wanting it bigger...another quote that I learned in school when I was studying woodworking at PCA, way back in the day...

"If you can't make it good, make it big "

Perry
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 03:32:00 PM by pizzaboyfan »

Offline Ev

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1226 on: February 03, 2012, 03:37:34 PM »
Uh-Oh!  I don't see a smiley face!

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1227 on: February 03, 2012, 03:42:39 PM »
Uh-Oh!  I don't see a smiley face!

If that dude realized how much I drool over such an oven as he is building (and which I alluded to in my previous post), he would stop talking, finish building that oven and show us some friggen' pizzas from that beautiful thing already!

For Pete's sake pizzaboyfan, make it so!  :)

EDIT: It's already been made so!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 03:54:59 PM by pizzablogger »
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Online TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1228 on: February 03, 2012, 05:10:44 PM »
I'm not sure which philosopher is credited with this quote:
"Those who can do, make pizza..those that can't do.....BLOG about it"

Oh, now I remember who made that quote...I did.

Perry,

Should I stop making pizza or blogging?   ;)

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline bakeshack

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1229 on: February 03, 2012, 05:35:32 PM »
Omid, have you considered making the oven yourself? 


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1230 on: February 03, 2012, 11:21:45 PM »
Let's not let this pearl of the Internets be sidetracked.

A pizzaiolo will make Good Food over an oil drum in a homeless camp.  It is not how you do it, or even what you do it with.  What counts is the end result.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1231 on: February 04, 2012, 12:40:59 AM »
A pizzaiolo will make Good Food over an oil drum in a homeless camp.  It is not how you do it, or even what you do it with.  What counts is the end result.

Here, here.

Omid - That oven has an absolutely beautiful tile job. I especially like the black granite landing.

John

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1232 on: February 04, 2012, 03:00:55 AM »
Omid

Some of the best pizzas I have ever seen on this forum (and otherwise) have been from your modified gas oven.  You took your conditions that you had on hand ( a regular gas oven), modified it , tested ad nauseum, modified again and again and finally have come up with something that IMHO has been an inspiration to us all.  

Now I don't know anything about dome heights and door widths, but I do know this.  If there is a fire in that thing that can generate some heat, you will figure out how to make that oven sing.

I look forward to the journey!

Scot


I agree 100% Scot. But when I saw the pictures of Omid's dough cooked in Peter's Stefano Ferrara, I have been wanting to see more of Omid's pizzas cooked in such an environment.


. . . This pearl of the Internets. . . .


Dear gentlemen, I earnestly appreciate the commendation, heartening, and reverence!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc9vKe4t3HE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc9vKe4t3HE</a>
(By Sam Keen, an AMERICAN philosopher)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 04:16:44 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1233 on: February 04, 2012, 04:04:49 AM »
Omid, what exactly is the reasoning you are looking to purchase a small and/or mobile wood-fired pizza oven?  Is it to more closely approximate the conditions you are ultimately looking to work in on a more regular basis? Or for some other reason?

If it is the former, I would argue you need to also consider volume, since that is a major factor a fornaio needs to deal with in a commercial establishment. Juggling 3 or more pizzas at a time in a hot, WFO is an attention and focus demanding endeavor!. And that requires size. I've personally met a handful of people with small WFOs in their backyard (one installed in their indoor kitchen!).  Keep in mind I would potentially consider doing bad things to have such an oven myself  :) :-[ >:D  ...but my nonexistent inner-city backyard precludes me from getting a small WFO.

Still, one of the commonalities among these people is that while they are all tremendously happy with their ovens, they all wish they were larger. --K

Dear Pizzablogger, if I owned my own house, I definitely would have considered appropriating a large, heavyweight wood-fired oven, which is preferable to me over a small, lightweight oven. I do trust that a well-built, large WFO can perform better than a small one. However, at this juncture, due to logistical and other reasons, a small oven is consistent with my present circumstances. I value the mobility of a small wood-fired oven such as the Forno Piccolo, which makes it much easier and convenient for me to transport it to wherever I may move in future, be it an apartment or another house. Good weekend!

Omid, have you considered making the oven yourself?

Dear Bakeshack, I actually have mused on such an undertaking, but so far nothing has materialized due to the reasons mentioned above. Have a great weekend!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1234 on: February 04, 2012, 04:11:04 AM »
Here, here.

Omid - That oven has an absolutely beautiful tile job. I especially like the black granite landing.

John

Dear dellavecchia, thank you! How about all white oven, like a bride? It would be a tough choice for me, between all black and all white. Enjoy your weekend!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 04:19:41 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1235 on: February 04, 2012, 06:48:19 AM »
Dear dellavecchia, thank you! How about all white oven, like a bride? It would be a tough choice for me, between all black and all white. Enjoy your weekend!

Ah, all white would be handsome. If it is to be outside, I might worry about staining - assuming the "white" would be marble. A very interesting approach that could combine both aesthetics might be stainless steel tile.

I have a smaller oven as well (28in floor), and I remove most of the coals after firing, and place a nice, thick log on the small mound of coals. This way I get up to about 8 pies without needing to play around with the fire before the floor temp starts to drop. And I have enough room to get the pie in the back "corner" for the best radiant heat.

John
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 08:15:49 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1236 on: February 04, 2012, 07:53:13 AM »
Dear Pizzablogger, if I owned my own house, I definitely would have considered appropriating a large, heavyweight wood-fired oven, which is preferable to me over a small, lightweight oven. I do trust that a well-built, large WFO can perform better than a small one. However, at this juncture, due to logistical and other reasons, a small oven is consistent with my present circumstances. I value the mobility of a small wood-fired oven such as the Forno Piccolo, which makes it much easier and convenient for me to transport it to wherever I may move in future, be it an apartment or another house. Good weekend!

Thanks for the explanation.

I never put forth that a great pizza cannot be made in a small oven. Indeed, some of the best pizzas I've ever tasted have come from small ovens.....you have expressed in this thread your interest in working at a commercial establishment and I just was just curious.

That being said, the Forno Piccolo looks like a nice oven indeed. I love the individual firebrick construction and, like John, I really like the tiles. Although hard choice between all black and all white.

John, those stainless steel tiles are sick!  :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Online TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1237 on: February 04, 2012, 06:12:34 PM »
That's wierd. I really like the black on the Forno Piccolo , but I don't care for it at all on the SF. Maybe it is the square tiles?

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1238 on: February 04, 2012, 06:58:20 PM »
Here is an interesting, short video featuring Sig. Raffaele Vassallo building and commenting on his Neapolitan oven. It is said that he used to work for Ferrara Forni. Good day!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbgHnVjTMko" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbgHnVjTMko</a>
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1239 on: February 04, 2012, 07:05:58 PM »
Here is an interesting, short video featuring Sig. Raffaele Vassallo building and commenting on his Neapolitan oven. It is said that he used to work for Ferrara Forni. Good day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbgHnVjTMko

Rafaelle (Lello) is a super guy. He learned from Stefano's father & to this day keeps a photo of him in his wallet.

Matt


 



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