Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 368850 times)

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Phar Lap

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1300 on: February 27, 2012, 08:19:34 PM »
Omid,

Looks good...when are getting your forno piccolo?

Adam


Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1301 on: February 27, 2012, 09:12:14 PM »
Omid,

Despite the handicap, the results are splendid... at least from a visual perspective.  May I ask what her rationale was for choosing the flour?

Salute,
Salvatore

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1302 on: February 28, 2012, 04:29:30 AM »
Omid, looks good...when are getting your forno piccolo?

Adam

Dear Adam, I am currently trying to sell one of my flamenco guitars. Once it is sold, I will use the proceeds toward purchasing a Forno Piccolo. Good night!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 06:31:18 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1303 on: February 28, 2012, 06:23:04 AM »
Omid,

Despite the handicap, the results are splendid... at least from a visual perspective.  May I ask what her rationale was for choosing the flour?

Salute,
Salvatore

Dear Salvatore, thank you! Actually, I asked my wife the same question when she entrusted me with the bag of Giusto's all-purpose flour. She told me that a saleswoman, who happened to be her friend, at Williams-Sonoma, where she purchased the flour, highly recommended it for making pizzas. (I am glad that the saleswoman could not convince her to buy a jar of pre-made tomato sauce for pizza!) Last night, after she compared the Giusto pizzas with the Caputo pizzas (one of which she herself prepared and I baked), she expressed to me that the latter was much tenderer and easier to eat than the former. The pictures below show the pizza she prepared using my Caputo dough:
___________________________________________________________________
Flour: Caputo Pizzeria "00" (datum point)
Water: 62%
Sea Salt: 2.8%
Culture: 2.42% (via water)
___________________________________________________________________
1st Fermentation (in mass): 23 hours at room temperature 64 - 74° F
2nd Fermentation (in balls): 7.5 hours at room temperature 71 - 75° F
___________________________________________________________________
Baked in a modified home gas oven
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 06:39:21 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1304 on: February 28, 2012, 07:57:26 AM »
Omid - I love seeing experiments like these. It shows the depth of complexity of a flour we all really just take for granted.

A local miller here in Massachusetts has asked me to test a 00 they are developing, and want me to bake it along side Caputo for comparison. They are actually coming to my house to observe the process with their engineers. I believe they will have quite a hard time replicating the blend. Hopefully they will let me post my results.

John

Pizza01

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1305 on: February 28, 2012, 10:07:26 AM »
Pizza looks fantastic omid. What kind of cheeze is it?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1306 on: February 28, 2012, 04:33:37 PM »
Omid - I love seeing experiments like these. It shows the depth of complexity of a flour we all really just take for granted.

A local miller here in Massachusetts has asked me to test a 00 they are developing, and want me to bake it along side Caputo for comparison. They are actually coming to my house to observe the process with their engineers. I believe they will have quite a hard time replicating the blend. Hopefully they will let me post my results.

John

Dear John, perhaps that is why Iranian bakers refer to the wheat flour as the "bakers marble", which denotes the flour's immanent potentialities that can be actualized or sculpted, akin to the sculptor's marble, in countless manners—either as Michelangelo's "David*" or else! It was riveting to see and taste the Giusto and the Caputo pizzas side by side. The last two pictures below offer a close look at the two. The 2nd picture is the pizza made with Giusto's "Organic All-Purpose" flour (non-00), and the 3rd picture is the pizza made with the Caputo "Pizzeria 00".

Giusto Dough
Flour: Giusto's Organic, All-Purpose, Unbleached, Non-00 (datum point)
Water: 64%
Sea Salt: 3.1%
Persian Culture: 3% (via water)
●1st Fermentation (in mass): 5 hours at room temperature 71 - 74° F
●2nd Fermentation (in balls): 20 hours at room temperature 67 - 75° F

Caputo Dough
Flour: Caputo Pizzeria "00" (datum point)
Water: 62%
Sea Salt: 2.8%
Persian Culture: 2.42% (via water)
●1st Fermentation (in mass): 23 hours at room temperature 64 - 74° F
●2nd Fermentation (in balls): 7.5 hours at room temperature 71 - 75° F

The two pizzas had very different gastronomical characters. I look forward to the results of your tests if they permit you to post them here. Have a great day!
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*It is said that when Michelangelo carved "David", he simply chiseled away whatever that was not human in the block of marble, and at last the creator set David free from the mass of marble! In his own words, "I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." Our task is to do the same with our marble, that is, both our characters and the flour!
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 03:23:55 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1307 on: February 28, 2012, 04:45:29 PM »
Pizza looks fantastic omid. What kind of cheeze is it?

Thank you, friend! The cheese is mozzarella fior di latte, made from pasteurized fresh cow milk. Given the peculiar nature of my modified home gas-oven, the cheese often looks creamy after melted. Have a great day!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 03:42:21 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1308 on: March 01, 2012, 07:36:11 PM »
In contrast to my previous post in Reply #1262 of this thread, I have come across an interesting article, which is written in Italian and is partly entitled "Maturazione e Lievitazione". According to an online Italian-English dictionary, the word maturazione is a noun, meaning "maturation", "ripening", or "physical, qualitative transformation(s) through aging". And, the word lievitazione is a noun, meaning "leavening" or "rising". Since the verb "to leaven" is a derivative of the the Latin verb levare, meaning "to lift" or "to levitate", I will use the terms "leavening1" and "levitation" interchangeably in this post. Moreover, according to the dictionary, the English noun "levitation" translates to "lievitazione" in Italian. Below are the links to my aforementioned post and the Italian article respectively:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171967.html#msg171967
http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/12/15/lezioni-di-pizza-come-fare-bene-maturazione-e-lievitazione/

In my post, I stated:

". . . 'Maturation' of Neapolitan dough is significative of a point in time whereby the starch (i.e., complex carbo-hydrates) and protein (e.g., gluten) molecules of dough have been broken down—as a consequence of the enzymatic and fermentative processes—into simpler molecules, which contribute to the flavor, soft and fluffy texture, and digestion of the end product. In this sense, maturation is an offspring of the enzymatic and fermentative transformations."

In contrast, the article, if I correctly understand it, appears to make a clear distinction between the process of dough "maturation" and the process of dough "leavening". (The article seems to view the leavening of dough as a direct consequence or effect of dough fermentation, not vice versa). In other words, within the context of the article, the author (Sig. Carlo Labate, who is a pizza consultant), unlike me, seems to limit maturation only to the enzymatic—not fermentative—transformations [brought about by the operations of amylase and protease enzymes]. The author, as far as I can tell, does not consider the yeasts' [and bacteria's] activities partaking in the process of maturation. In other words, dough maturation (which provides fuel for fermentation) can occur in absence of yeast cells. Although they are undeniably two distinct processes, my post propounds fermentation concomitant with maturation—inasmuch as the former also substantially contributes to the ongoing simplification of complex carbohydrates and proteins. I find the author's conceptual analysis meritorious.

§1. Dough Maturation
In regard to dough maturation, the article relates:

"We have seen how the mechanical energy used during kneading creates a complex protein structure, the gluten, which is the real skeleton of our pizza. At this point, however, the dough is not yet ready to be used. Before that can happen, there should be two things: the rise [or 'lievitazione', as used by the author] and maturation [or 'maturazione', as used by the author], and this requires a fundamental ingredient, time. . . . The maturation [as distinct from leavening] is . . . a set of processes that go in the reverse direction of what happens during kneading, that is, the more complex structures, proteins, starches and fats, are broken down progressively into simpler elements. These processes weaken the structure of the dough making it less tenacious, more extensible, easier to digest and also create the fuel for the yeast. In particular the latter [i.e., the maturation processes] need to simplify sugars for metabolism that are created just as a result of the breakdown of starch." (Translated by Google Translate and partly refined by my careful efforts.)

Quote
The original text in Italian:

"Abbiamo visto come l’energia meccanica utilizzata durante l’impastamento crei una struttura proteica complessa, il glutine, che costituisce il vero e proprio scheletro della nostra pizza. A questo punto però l’impasto non è ancora pronto ad essere utilizzato. Prima che ciò possa avvenire devono accadere due cose: la lievitazione e la maturazione e per questo serve un ingrediente fondamentale, il tempo. . . . La maturazione invece è un insieme di processi che vanno nella direzione inversa di quello che succede durante l’impastamento, ossia le strutture più complesse, proteine, amidi e grassi, vengono scomposti progressivamente in elementi più semplici. Questi processi indeboliscono la struttura dell’impasto rendendolo meno tenace, più estensibile, più facilmente digeribile e creano inoltre il carburante per i lieviti. In particolare questi ultimi hanno bisogno di zuccheri semplici per il proprio metabolismo che si vengono a creare proprio come effetto della decomposizione degli amidi."

§2. Dough Fermentation and Levitation
In respect to dough fermentation and levitation, the article imparts:

"By leavening [or 'lievitazione', as used by the author] is meant the increase in volume of the dough caused by the fermentative [or 'fermentativa', as used by the author] action of the yeast that produces carbon dioxide which remains trapped in the gluten structure. . . . It is important to understand that these two processes [i.e., maturation and leavening] do not occur within the same timeframes and depend, among other factors, on the flour used and the temperature at which the dough is placed. If we use strong flour (such as Marino flour), the aging processes [or 'i processi di maturazione', as used by the author] will need more time for their activities, in which case it is useful to put the dough in the refrigerator2 because cold temperatures slows the activity of the yeast [hence, the activity of leavening] but do not stop the maturation. Using the right flour can make the dough in the refrigerator for 48 or 72 hours. Using weaker flour (for example, the Caputo), a maturation at ambient temperature for 8 or 12 hours may be more than adequate3. The dose of the yeast must be measured based on the duration of this period and the ambient temperature. The higher the outside temperature, more rapid will be the fermentative action of yeast." (Translated by Google Translate and partly refined by my careful efforts. Italics are added for emphasis.)

Quote
The original text in Italian:

"Con lievitazione si intenda l’aumento di volume dell’impasto provocato dall’azione fermentativa del lievito che produce anidride carbonica che rimane intrappolata nella struttura del glutine. . . . E' importante capire che questi due processi non avvengono con gli stessi tempi e dipendono, tra le altre cose, dalla farina utilizzata e dalla temperatura a cui viene posto l’impasto. Se utilizziamo farine forti (ad esempio le farine Marino) i processi di maturazione avranno bisogno di più tempo per la loro attività; in questo caso è utile mettere l’impasto in frigorifero in quanto le basse temperature rallentano l’attività del lievito ma non fermano la maturazione. Utilizzando le giuste farine si può far riposare l’impasto in frigorifero per 48 o 72 ore. Utilizzando farine più deboli  (ad esempio la Caputo) una maturazione a temperatura ambiente di 8 o 12 ore può essere più che adeguata. La dose del lievito dovrà essere graduata in base alla durata di questo periodo e della temperatura ambiente. Più alta sarà la temperatura esterna e più accelerata risulterà l’azione fermentativa del lievito."

Below is a translation of the entire article as it appears in the website:
Quote
"We have seen how the mechanical energy used during kneading creates a complex protein structure, the gluten, which is the real skeleton of our pizza.

At this point, however, the dough is not yet ready to be used. Before that can happen, there should be two things: the rise and maturation, and this requires a fundamental ingredient, time.

By leavening is meant the increase in volume of the dough caused by the fermentative action of the yeast that produces carbon dioxide which remains trapped in the gluten structure. The maturation is instead a set of processes that go in the reverse direction of what happens during kneading, that is, the more complex structures, proteins, starches and fats, are broken down progressively into simpler elements.

These processes weaken the structure of the dough making it less tenacious, more extensible, easier to digest and also create the fuel for the yeast. In particular the latter needs to simplify sugars for metabolism that are created just as a result of the breakdown of starch.

It is important to understand that these two processes do not occur within the same timeframes and depend, among other factors, on the flour used and the temperature at which the dough is placed.

If we use strong flour (such as Marino flour), the aging processes will need more time for their activities, in which case it is useful to put the dough in the refrigerator because cold temperatures slows the activity of the yeast but  do not stop the maturation. Using the right flour can make the dough in the refrigerator for 48 or 72 hours.

Using weaker flour (for example, the Caputo), a maturation at ambient temperature for 8 or 12 hours may be more than adequate. The dose of the yeast must be measured based on the duration of this period and the ambient temperature. The higher the outside temperature, more rapid will be the fermentative action of yeast.

The period from the end of kneading to the drafting of dough discs is divided into two phases, labeled as the epi-sode [in Italian 'puntata', which is commonly referred to as the 'first or bulk fermentation' in this forum] and finish [in Italian 'appretto', which is commonly referred to as the 'second or balled fermentation' in this forum].

The puntata is the stage where all the dough is left in a compact mass, after which it will be cut/shaped [in Italian 'staglio' (or staglio a mano, 'hand-shaping')], i.e. the forming of individual loaves (or balls, or 'panielli'). The timing of these two phases can be modulated according to various criteria, and there are several possible choices in this regard.

Personally I prefer to make a puntata rather long period followed by an appretto of 3-4 hours. This is particularly useful if you use the fridge, because you need less space if you leave the whole mass of dough together.

Forming dough balls is a delicate operation because of having to manipulate the dough, again applying mechanical energy [by hand-shaping dough balls] and re-strengthening the gluten which had become relaxed during maturation [or during the first/bulk fermentation]. And the greater energy used, the more the gluten will be strengthened. The period of appretto just serves to allow the gluten to relax again, so should be much longer than the greater was the manipulation during the formation of dough balls.

During the puntata, cover the dough in the bowl of the mixer with a clean damp cloth, making sure that it never comes into direct contact with the mixture. For the appretto, the ideal would be to have the special plastic dough trays, which are found both on the internet and in many stores."

(Translated by Google Translate and partly refined by my careful efforts.)

Below are links to other articles in the series by the author:
1. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/11/03/lezioni-di-pizza-10-cose-da-sapere-per-farla-a-casa/
2. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/11/10/lezioni-di-pizza-le-tre-farine-migliori-per-farla-a-casa/
3. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/11/18/lezioni-di-pizza-come-usare-i-tipi-di-farine-consigliate/
4. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/11/24/lezioni-di-pizza-lievito-tra-madre-e-birra-usa-la-seconda/
5. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/12/02/lezioni-di-pizza-lacqua-la-regola-del-55-sale-e-grassi/
6. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/12/08/lezioni-di-pizza-regole-e-dosi-per-fare-limpasto-a-casa/
7. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/12/15/lezioni-di-pizza-come-fare-bene-maturazione-e-lievitazione/
8. http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/12/22/lezioni-di-pizza-stendi-senza-mattarello-condisci-e-cuoci/

If I were asked to reformulate my conception of dough maturation in an effort to harmonize it with the author's, I would stipulate: "Dough maturation is effectuated as a result of enzymatic processes, involving enzymes such as amylase and protease, wherein complex starches and proteins of dough are gradually broken down into simpler elements under the proper range of temperatures and length of time—without the aid of fermentation, which concurrently occurs anyway in a yeasted dough, however faster or slower than the maturation! From a molecular standpoint, the maturative processes convert the starches into simpler sugars that are more digestible to our metabolism (and have more identifiable flavors to our taste buds). Also, from a structural standpoint, these processes weaken the dough skeleton (i.e., the supporting gluten structure), making it more relaxed, extensible, and digestible." All in all, I personally prefer to view the "fermentative processes" contemporaneous with, complementary to, and interdependent on the "enzymatic processes" in effectuating dough maturation. After all, the cardinal point is the breakdown or simplification of the starch and protein contents of dough (up to a point or "point of maturation4") before being baked into pizzas.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
1. Rightly or wrongly, I feel there are popular and unreconciled ambiguities associated with the concept "leavening", especially when it is used concomitantly with the concept "fermentation". Just as smoke is a manifestation of fire-burning, I likewise construe leavening (hence dough levitation or rising) as an observable manifestation of the biological process known as fermentation. I acknowledge that this interpretation—leavening as a physical symptom of dough fermentation—might not be accurate.

2. My employment of initial short fermentation (cf. "puntata") of dough mass followed by long fermentation (cf. "appretto") of the resultant dough balls, as discussed in the posts appearing below, is supposed to be a shortcut accomplishing the same result without the use of refrigeration (or even without the use of my marble chambers by attuning the percentages for hydration, salt, and/or starter culture or fresh yeast to the anticipated room temperature, and stretching or shortening the time accordingly). According to my repeated experiments, I believe that the early formation of dough balls after the "initial short fermentation of dough mass" slows down the fermentative reactions and, therefore, provides more time for the maturation to take place.  

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165901.html#msg165901
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172280.html#msg172280
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172531.html#msg172531
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172992.html#msg172992

3. If by "Caputo" the author means "Caputo '00' Pizzeria" flour, it is debatable that maturation at ambient temperature for 8 or 12 hours is more than adequate. Of course, please note that the author qualified his statement by using the modal verb "may".

4. Cf. "point of pasta". "Point of maturation" can be deemed as a point in opposite direction to "point of pasta".
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 06:58:31 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1309 on: March 01, 2012, 07:53:09 PM »
Omid,

That is interesting material. Marco (pizanapoletana) used to use the word "ripening" and "ripe" instead of "maturation" and "mature", respectively. See, for example, Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1085.msg9700/topicseen.html#msg9700 and Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg9055/topicseen.html#msg9055. While Marco did not provide the level of detail of your last post, my recollection is that the ripening phase took place for the individual dough balls once divided from the bulk dough after the main fermentation.

Peter


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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1310 on: March 01, 2012, 08:44:33 PM »
Omid,

I think you are correct in the reasoning behind the duration of your puntata and appretto.  The longer the dough sits in bulk fermentation (puntata) the more exponentially it will ferment.  This will initially result in leavening, and if left too long, the dough will start to break down.  By shortening this first process, and lengthening the appretto, we allow for more time to elapse and more subtle aromas to develop.

Also, as the author mentions, the change between the puntata and appretto requires manipulation of the dough.  As soon as we do this, we force the gluten network to tighten.  One of the goals is to allow it to slowly soften, therefore by performing our transition earlier, we provide the dough with the benefit of added time without the interruption of human hands. 

I hope I am clear.  Thank you so much, especially for the original copy.  I try to read as much Italian as I can, and it is obviously more interesting when the subject is so near and dear to my heart!

Grazie tante,
Salvatore

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1311 on: March 01, 2012, 10:08:31 PM »
my recollection is that the ripening phase took place for the individual dough balls once divided from the bulk dough after the main fermentation.

Peter
This will initially result in leavening, and if left too long, the dough will start to break down.  By shortening this first process, and lengthening the appretto, we allow for more time to elapse and more subtle aromas to develop.
Salvatore

Peter and Salvatore.  Correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't maturation or more specifically the action of enzymes occur as soon as water is added to flour?  And generally speaking, doesn't enzyme activity occur at a faster rate at higher temperatures?

More enzymatic activity in dough does not neccessarily produce a better crust and neither does a stronger gluten matrix via balling after an extended bulk fermentation.  The desired texture, aroma, and flavor has to be carefully dictated by the pizza maker whether balling early, late, or somewhere in-between.  It is dictated and varies depending on the specific culture and highly preferential IMO.  

Omid, beautiful pies as always.  Sorry if I missed this before, but why did you treat the fermentation process of the 2 doughs (AP vs caputo) differently?  Also how much variation in the mixing times existed between the 2 doughs?  Did you mix both doughs to the same point of pasta?  IMO, 2 doughs (short bulk vs long bulk) may require a different amount of kneading to bring about optimal results for each dough.

If you were to repeat the test using just caputo, the exact same formulation and kneading for both doughs, the long bulk dough will always be relatively "tougher".  I suspect that it is possible to arrive at very similar levels of tenderness using a short or long bulk (or somewhere in between) as long as the development of gluten (kneading) is adjusted accordingly.

Chau
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 11:28:44 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1312 on: March 02, 2012, 05:56:58 AM »
Last night's bake:

Flour: Caputo Pizzeria "00" (datum point)
Water: 65%
Sea Salt: 3.2%
Iranian Culture: 4.62% (via water)
____________________________________________________________________
Mix & knead time (using Santos fork mixer): 3 Minutes and 14 Seconds
Direct method: Water ➡ Salt (1/3rd) ➡ Culture ➡ Flour ➡ Salt (2/3rd)
30 minutes of rest after kneading
____________________________________________________________________
●1st phase of fermentation (in mass): 6.5 hours at room temperature 71 - 74° F
●2nd phase of fermentation (in balls): 16 hours at room temperature 59 - 76° F
____________________________________________________________________
Baked in modified home gas oven
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1313 on: March 02, 2012, 05:58:28 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1314 on: March 02, 2012, 05:59:50 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1315 on: March 02, 2012, 06:08:37 AM »
Omid - In the most positive way, there is a rustic, beautiful unevenness in the cornichone of your latest pizzas. What part of the workflow do you attribute this to?

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1316 on: March 02, 2012, 11:06:44 AM »
Peter and Salvatore.  Correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't maturation or more specifically the action of enzymes occur as soon as water is added to flour?  And generally speaking, doesn't enzyme activity occur at a faster rate at higher temperatures?

Chau,

I am going strictly by memory and what I was able to find searching Marco's posts. But the indelible thought that I took away from Marco while he was active on the forum and discussed these matters is that the ripening or maturation was a late-stage process, after the initial bulk rise that seemed to always be part of Marco's method. When I have seen photos on the forum of dough balls that have essentially collapsed into almost pancakes, that is where I tend to think of the ripening that Marco talked about, where things are breaking down (although in some cases, it looks like the dough balls were held too long before using). But you are correct that certain enzymes (e.g., proteolytic enzymes)start to work fairly soon, including during autolyse if used. And they are sensitive to temperature. I suspect that a balance has to be achieved between the time and temperature of the bulk rise and of the individual dough balls. In Marco's case, he made Neapolitan doughs that were based on using both a natural leavening system and commercial yeast. That meant having to use different fermentation times and ripening times. Presumably, the final doughs both reached the desired stage to use.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1317 on: March 02, 2012, 11:25:53 AM »
Peter, I pondered over your post last night and concluded this morning that while enzymes would work almost immediately with the addition of water to flour, I can certainly understand it if Marco was referring to the end stages of dough fermentation as maturation or ripening, as a fruit matures or ripens at the end of it's life cycle.  Though, enzymes technically go to work right away, the dough matures or ripens later in the process.  Thanks for clarifying your post, it makes more sense now.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 12:54:01 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1318 on: March 02, 2012, 12:34:35 PM »
Omid,

Great looking pies as usual!  Just curious what cheese brand are you using?

Scott D.

Offline bakeshack

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1319 on: March 02, 2012, 05:39:28 PM »
Omid - In the most positive way, there is a rustic, beautiful unevenness in the cornichone of your latest pizzas. What part of the workflow do you attribute this to?

John

Omid, I'm with John on your latest pies.  I really love the "rustic" look of these pies.  For some reason, they really appeal to me.  Maybe even more than your other pies.  Are you sure you didn't bake these in a wood oven??? 

Marlon


 

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