Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 357850 times)

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Offline Pulcinella

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  • Posts: 59
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1360 on: March 14, 2012, 09:43:54 PM »
Omid you said two things that really affected my daughter and I in making pizzas.

Since the role of language is tremendous, you need better formulation of the concepts "point of pasta", "fermentation", "levitation", "maturation", and "time". [There were more concepts which I can not remember.] They need to be precisely articulated without losing the ground on which they stand. Without them, you are not making pizzas, but accidents. Keep asking yourself what are the questions [or problems] to which these concepts are the answers. Formulate your questions carefully, as wrong questions will beg for wrong answers!

Formation of a good dough should not be accidental, but historical (i.e., objective-oriented), as seems to be the case with the tradition of the Neapolitan pizza.

this motivated us to make the index below, also for the sake of finding things faster in this thread that is getting too extensive to find things. I hope you do not mind. We propose others do the same or make a new thread that lists what is most important to them in making naples style pizzas. We thank every one for their contributions to this forum.  


Preface:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg144646.html#msg144646 (Reply #1)

History & Tradition:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160278.html#msg160278 (Reply #889)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162424.html#msg162424 (Reply #976)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162473.html#msg162473 (Reply #979)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162479.html#msg162479 (Reply #980)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162631.html#msg162631 (Reply #981)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162690.html#msg162690 (Reply #983)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162757.html#msg162757 (Reply #984, 985)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163109.html#msg163109 (Reply #994)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163110.html#msg163110 (Reply #995)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163601.html#msg163601 (Reply #1001)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163811.html#msg163811 (Reply #1018)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161417.html#msg161417 (Reply #961)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162181.html#msg162181 (Reply #965)

Art & Philosophy:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166251.html#msg166251 (Reply #1126)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg167323.html#msg167323 (Reply #1139)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169395.html#msg169395 (Reply #1184)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169762.html#msg169762 (Reply #1195)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163714.html#msg163714 (Reply #1010)

Flour, Dough, Fermentation, Leavening, Maturation, & Oxidation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171967.html#msg171967 (Reply #1262)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171985.html#msg171985 (Reply #1264)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174549.html#msg174549 (Reply #1308)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174738.html#msg174738 (Reply #1323)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174855.html#msg174855 (Reply #1334)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175439.html#msg175439 (Reply #1353)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175605.html#msg175605 (Reply #1356)

Dough Mixers:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164997.html#msg164997 (Reply #1060)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg150003.html#msg150003 (Reply #405)

Friction Factor & Desired Dough Temperature:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174856.html#msg174856 (Reply #1335)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174863.html#msg174863 (Reply #1338)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174884.html#msg174884 (Reply #1340)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174900.html#msg174900 (Reply #1342)

Point of Pasta:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149303.html#msg149303 (Reply #377)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149610.html#msg149610 (Reply #385)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154318.html#msg154318 (Reply #524)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154401.html#msg154401 (Reply #532)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155156.html#msg155156 (Reply #598)

Initial Short Fermentation vs Initial Long Fermentation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155395.html#msg155395 (Reply #611)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165901.html#msg165901 (Reply #1105)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172280.html#msg172280 (Reply #1271)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172531.html#msg172531 (Reply #1276)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172992.html#msg172992 (Reply #1287)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173163.html#msg173163 (Reply #1290)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174782.html#msg174782 (Reply #1325)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176044.html#msg176044 (Reply #1357)

Leoparding Effect:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176207.html#msg176207 (Reply #1359)

Oven & Flames:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154645.html#msg154645 (Reply #544)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154667.html#msg154667 (Reply #549)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154682.html#msg154682 (Reply #553)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154687.html#msg154687 (Reply #556)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166068.html#msg166068 (Reply #1123)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170359.html#msg170359 (Reply #1215)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170482.html#msg170482 (Reply #1222)

Neapolitan Wallet:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159586.html#msg159586 (Reply #837)

Dough Rheology:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159499.html#msg159499 (Reply #829)

Misc.:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160906.html#msg160906 (Reply #951)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161096.html#msg161096 (Reply #952)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164491.html#msg164491 (Reply #1038)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161287.html#msg161287 (Reply #957)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166834.html#msg166834 (Reply #1134)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg168654.html#msg168654 (Reply #1174)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173601.html#msg173601 (Reply #1294)

Videos:
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)

(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 1)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 2)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 3)
(Roberto Caporuscio)
http://www.travelchannel.com/Video/perfect-neapolitan-pizza-15494 (Anthony Bourdain at Pallone)
(Toto' Sapore)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Trianon)
(Iranian Baker)
http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough (Scottish Baker)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Franco Manca)
(Franco Manca)
(Gaetano Fazio)
(Gaetano Fazio)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=4IVVwV4tcuM (Trianon)
(Trianon)
(Un'Americana in Italia)
(Antonio Mattozzi)

(Gino Sorbillo)
(Salvo)
(Salvo)
http://pizzeriecampane.blogspot.com/2011/10/pizzeria-salvo-san-giorgio-cremano-na.html (Salvo)
(Ciro Salvo)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Keste)
(Pizza Punch)
(Singapour)
(Nicolas Supiot)
(Raffaele Vassallo)

Caputo Flours:
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf (Caputo '00' Pizzeria)
http://image.brickovenbaker.com/pdf/extratech.pdf (Caputo '00' Extra)
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/rinforzatotech.pdf (Caputo '00' Rinforzato)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 11:06:57 AM by Pulcinella »


Offline randyjohnsonhve

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 131
  • Location: Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1361 on: March 14, 2012, 11:12:59 PM »
Pulcinella....Thanks for the index on Omid....We learn so much from him, Craig and others, and now you have categorized his wisdom...Hats off to you for helping us all, RJelli  :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1347
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1362 on: March 15, 2012, 02:37:32 AM »
Omid you said two things that really affected my daughter and I in making pizzas. . . . this motivated us to make the index below, also for the sake of finding things faster in this thread that is getting too extensive to find things. I hope you do not mind. . . .

Dear Pulcinella, I do not mind it at all, and I am glad that I have been helpful in your pursuit. But, please keep in mind that I am no authority on Neapolitan pizza, although I try my earnest to educate myself on the subject. Be very critical in reading the posts, and I'd be grateful if you inform me of any inaccuracies or mistakes therein. Thank you!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Ev

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1810
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1363 on: March 15, 2012, 10:19:06 AM »
Wow! I think this whole post deserves "sticky status" all by itself!


Omid you said two things that really affected my daughter and I in making pizzas.

this motivated us to make the index below, also for the sake of finding things faster in this thread that is getting too extensive to find things. I hope you do not mind. We propose others do the same or make a new thread that lists what is most important to them in making naples style pizzas. We thank every one for their contributions to this forum. 



Preface:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg144646.html#msg144646 (Reply #1)

History & Tradition:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160278.html#msg160278 (Reply #889)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162424.html#msg162424 (Reply #976)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162479.html#msg162479 (Reply #980)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162631.html#msg162631 (Reply #981)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162690.html#msg162690 (Reply #983)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162757.html#msg162757 (Reply #984, 985)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163109.html#msg163109 (Reply #994)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163110.html#msg163110 (Reply #995)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163601.html#msg163601 (Reply #1001)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163811.html#msg163811 (Reply #1018)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161417.html#msg161417 (Reply #961)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162181.html#msg162181 (Reply #965)

Philosophy & Art:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166251.html#msg166251 (Reply #1126)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg167323.html#msg167323 (Reply #1139)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169395.html#msg169395 (Reply #1184)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169762.html#msg169762 (Reply #1195)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163714.html#msg163714 (Reply #1010)

Flour, Dough, Fermentation, Leavening, Maturation, & Oxidation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171967.html#msg171967 (Reply #1262)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171985.html#msg171985 (Reply #1264)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174549.html#msg174549 (Reply #1308)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174738.html#msg174738 (Reply #1323)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174855.html#msg174855 (Reply #1334)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175439.html#msg175439 (Reply #1353)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175605.html#msg175605 (Reply #1356)

Dough Mixers:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164997.html#msg164997 (Reply #1060)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg150003.html#msg150003 (Reply #405)

Friction Factor & Desired Dough Temperature:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174856.html#msg174856 (Reply # 1335)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174863.html#msg174863 (Reply #1338)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174884.html#msg174884 (Reply #1340)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174900.html#msg174900 (Reply #1342)

Point of Pasta:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149303.html#msg149303 (Reply #377)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149610.html#msg149610 (Reply #385)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154318.html#msg154318 (Reply #524)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154401.html#msg154401 (Reply #532)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155156.html#msg155156 (Reply #598)

Initial Short Fermentation vs Initial Long Fermentation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155395.html#msg155395 (Reply #611)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165901.html#msg165901 (Reply #1105)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172280.html#msg172280 (Reply #1271)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172531.html#msg172531 (Reply #1276)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172992.html#msg172992 (Reply #1287)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173163.html#msg173163 (Reply #1290)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176044.html#msg176044 (Reply #1357)

Leoparding Effect:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176207.html#msg176207 (Reply #1359)

Oven & Flames:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154645.html#msg154645 (Reply #544)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154667.html#msg154667 (Reply #549)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154682.html#msg154682 (Reply #553)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154687.html#msg154687 (Reply #556)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166068.html#msg166068 (Reply #1123)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170359.html#msg170359 (Reply #1215)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170482.html#msg170482 (Reply #1222)

Neapolitan Wallet:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159586.html#msg159586 (Reply #837)

Dough Rheology:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159499.html#msg159499 (Reply #829)

Misc.:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160906.html#msg160906 (Reply #951)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161096.html#msg161096 (Reply #952)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164491.html#msg164491 (Reply #1038)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161287.html#msg161287 (Reply #957)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166834.html#msg166834 (Reply #1134)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg168654.html#msg168654 (Reply #1174)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173601.html#msg173601 (Reply #1294)


Videos:
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)

(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 1)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 2)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 3)
(Roberto Caporuscio)
http://www.travelchannel.com/Video/perfect-neapolitan-pizza-15494 (Anthony Bourdain at Pallone)
(Toto' Sapore)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Trianon)
(Iranian Baker)
http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough (Scottish Baker)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Franco Manca)
(Franco Manca)
(Gaetano Fazio)
(Gaetano Fazio)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=4IVVwV4tcuM (Trianon)
(Trianon)
(Un'Americana in Italia)
(Antonio Mattozzi)

(Gino Sorbillo)
(Salvo)
(Salvo)
http://pizzeriecampane.blogspot.com/2011/10/pizzeria-salvo-san-giorgio-cremano-na.html (Salvo)
(Ciro Salvo)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Keste)
(Pizza Punch)
(Singapour)
(Nicolas Supiot)
(Raffaele Vassallo)

Caputo Flours:
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf (Caputo '00' Pizzeria)
http://image.brickovenbaker.com/pdf/extratech.pdf (Caputo '00' Extra)
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/rinforzatotech.pdf (Caputo '00' Rinforzato)

Offline alex_chef2000

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 29
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1364 on: March 18, 2012, 11:51:03 PM »
  :chef: Water temperature in Celsius.

I have the advice of one of the best bakers in Lyon, France; about handling the best temperatures to make bread, you can use it for autolysis or to knead your pizza dough.

The magic number is 54 C.

So the formula is AT + FT + X = 54 C.

AT = Ambient Temperature.
FT = Flour Temperature.
X = ( Variant ) Water Temperature.

Example:

If your AT is 20 C + the FT 20 C ( usually are the same ) then you may need to use water at 14 C.

Little by little we are getting close to perfection....


My culinary regards,


Chef Alex.:


Offline randyjohnsonhve

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 131
  • Location: Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1365 on: March 19, 2012, 12:28:44 AM »
 :chef: Water Temperature in Fahrenheit

The conversion is about 193 in F. 68F + 68F + 57F = 193  (+/-)1
Similar to 54 in C.-----------------22C + 22C + 10C = 54

RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline pizzaneer

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1477
  • Location: Nirvana
  • Pizza and zen more pizza
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1366 on: March 21, 2012, 07:02:47 AM »
er, 193F?  somethings not right here...

found this on ehow:

1
Find the published DDT (Desired Dough Temperature). This may be the hardest part of the process if the recipe you are using does not list a DDT. If youre following a recipe without a listed DDT, try checking similar professional recipes and use their DDT for your own. If you cant find a published DDT, try using 78 degrees. Most amateur baking recipes do not list a DDT.

2
Calculate the Total Temperature Factor (TTF). The TTF is simply the DDT multiplied by the number of known temperature factors involved. There are only 3 known temperature factors; flour temperature, room temperature and mixer friction. Therefore, to calculate the TTF, you will multiply the DDT by 3. For this example, we will use 78 degrees for the DDT. 78 times 3 equals 234. Therefore, the TTF is 234.

3
Determine the mixer friction value. Because movement generates heat, we must allow for the friction of the mixer when calculating our working dough temperature. Baking professionals give every minute a mixer is used a value of 2. Therefore, if your recipe calls for you to mix the dough in the mixer for 8 minutes, you will multiply 8 times 2 and have a mixer friction value of 16.

4
Add all the known temperature factors. Now, we have the mixer friction value and its easy to get the flour temperature and the room temperature with everyday thermometers. For this example, well use a flour temperature of 60 degrees, and a room temperature of 70 degrees. By adding 16 plus 60 plus 70, we arrive at the number 146. Therefore, 146 is the sum of all known temperature factors.

5
Find the necessary temperature of the water by subtracting the sum of all known temperature factors from the TTF. The TTF we calculated in Step 2 was 234 and the sum of known temperatures factors was 146. After subtracting 146 from 234, we have the number 88. Therefore, you should use water that is exactly 88 degrees in temperature when making your dough.

6
Use the same equation every time you make your baked yeast product for uniform results. Professional bakers calculate the DDT every time they make dough for bread or baked goods. It's nice to know that you have control of the consistency of your dough. If you bake yeast products to sell, it's imperative.

Maybe Peter or someone who loves tinkering with math could refine this further...
regards
Brian

I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1367 on: March 21, 2012, 11:51:18 AM »

Much more to it than what I know...I simply tried to convert the previous post...To be consistent, you really need to know DDT for that dough recipe, and then the TTF so we can determine the temperature of the water...Do you have some parameters on pizza dough recipes based upon different hydration levels, i.e. 55%, 60% and 65%?

Appreciate your clarification,
RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1368 on: March 21, 2012, 02:18:51 PM »
I'm not sure that different hydration levels are going to make a difference in temperature calculations, with the possible exception of lower mixing friction for higher hydration dough.

In addition, Omid's Santos fork mixer may be different from the commercial mixers this process seems designed for.   

In my view, mixer friction is about 1/10th as important as room, water and resulting dough temp.  This results in a very empirical "measure as you go" approach to mixing- and that still requires knowing what temperature you want in the end.     
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1369 on: March 21, 2012, 03:01:13 PM »

Pizzaneer,

Opps...in the conversion, 10C = 50F, so the number would be 186...So in a house where the temperature is 70F, the water temperature should be 46F to match the Lyon, France formula...186 (-) 70 (-) 70 = 46...This does not account for the friction loss that you consider to be somewhat insignificant, unless you spent a long time in the mixer. Once again, thanks for the thoroughness of your response.

Sorry for the error,
RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1370 on: March 21, 2012, 07:05:52 PM »
I have generally been guided on this matter by what Tom Lehmann wrote in the article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. This past June (2011), Tom and others addressed this matter at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg143632.html#msg143632.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:35:10 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Drgolf369

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1371 on: March 27, 2012, 06:22:32 AM »
The dough balls look great. I have tried 65% hydration, 5 minute mixer at slow speed, 5 minute rest, 10 minute mix at slow speed, 2 hours bench then 18 hours at 55 degrees then 2 hours at room temperature. The dough balls run into each other. The dough is so soft that it can not be slapped. It requires too much flour to even disc it on the counter. I hold it on the back of my hands moving quickly allowing its own weight to stretch it into a disc. I am using Caputo 00 pizza flour.
If anyone is using this much hydration, there must be a great deal of water loss in the process.
Has anyone had this same experience?
Should I try less hydration and what percentage?
Thanks,
Joel

Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1372 on: March 27, 2012, 11:49:23 AM »

Drgolf...

I now use 65% hydration with 2.8% salt and 11.7% protein bread flour, 37F Spring Water...After achieving point of pasta by hand, I bulk rise for one hour at 68F and then squeeze off dough balls and retard at 37F for 24 hours, finish with 69F room rise for 2-3 hours. Works well here. The difference has to be 00 flour, and there may be some other factors such as humidity, salt, yeast, etc. I have learned that you keep trying with different formulas and times until you get what you like, and then, the seasons will change what you do. That is why, these pizzaiolas who are really good, have done it for years, and can read the conditions with their skin and instinctively know what to do...I am just a home guy who loves the challenge and continue to do things a little different in the hope of improving the final product...Good Luck

RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline Drgolf369

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1373 on: March 27, 2012, 12:42:40 PM »
Thanks for the reply Randy
I am like you, just a home guy with a passion
Joel

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1374 on: March 27, 2012, 11:38:58 PM »
Tonight's bake:

Flour: Caputo Pizzeria "00" (datum point)
Water: 62%
Sea Salt: 2.8%
Starter Culture: 1.93% (via water)
___________________________________________________________________________
Mix & knead time (using Santos fork mixer): 2 Minutes and 41 Seconds
Direct method: Water (67.8F) ➡ Salt ➡ Culture ➡ Flour (65.4F) = Dough (72.9F)
Ambient temperature during mixing = 73F
25 minutes of rest after kneading
___________________________________________________________________________
●1st phase of fermentation (in mass): 19.5 hours inside the marble chamber 65F - 68F
●2nd phase of fermentation (in balls): 4.5 hours at room temperature 70 - 71F
___________________________________________________________________________
Baked in my modified home gas oven (871F Floor)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 11:49:08 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1375 on: March 27, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1376 on: March 27, 2012, 11:40:34 PM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1377 on: March 27, 2012, 11:41:20 PM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline PizzaVera

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1378 on: March 27, 2012, 11:49:55 PM »
I really like this video, it's in Italian, but you can understand what's happening by watching.




and this video is awesome, watch closely at 1.25 and see a guy with skillz!



ohhh and Pizza Napoletana! those pizzas are outstanding!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 12:09:22 AM by PizzaVera »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1379 on: March 27, 2012, 11:58:31 PM »
All are your trademark beautiful. Notwithstanding, the salumi and olive is a masterpiece.

CL
Pizza is not bread.


 

pizzapan