Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 289414 times)

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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1700 on: October 27, 2012, 01:05:41 PM »
7 gauge steel is a bit less than a quarter in. thick and with a bend in it it is not tipping over...or melting either. But if you want to do it the hard way...good luck to you then my friend.  ;)
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Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1701 on: October 27, 2012, 06:24:59 PM »
Following Omid's instructions it is not too hard to modify the steel piece.......

« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 07:01:24 PM by Mangia Pizza »
Paolo

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1702 on: October 27, 2012, 06:43:48 PM »
this question of floor properties is of great interest to me.  my FB artigiano came with an italian cast biscotto floor that i had to replace.  first i used a firebrick replacement of the same dimensions and could get nowhere near the same results.  i then got another of the original floor and was back to the expected performance.  with my mobile ovens, i have really struggled with too much cooking on the base at, as omid mentioned, similar or even lower temps than the other floor.  the most striking thing to me about Craig's oven was how it effortlessly cooked the base without burning at high temps.  so soft but powerful. . . .  I really wonder if the problem with those floors in my mobile ovens is too much insulation - they have the space age 2" thick foam stuff underneath. . . .

bill


Dear Bill, besides the peculiarity of the materials out of which the Ferrara's oven floor is made, I have noticed that the four floor biscotti (particularly the ones used in the Ferrara oven at Pizzeria Bruno) do not seem to be cemented or somehow attached to one another and to the surface that they sit on. In other words, they are loose, seemingly sitting on some kind of soft, shock-absorbing material. Some claim that the insulators the biscotti directly sit on is some kind of sand mixed with salt and volcanic ash or crushed volcanic glass. If so, perhaps the combination of the material out of which the oven floor is made of and the sand/salt/ash/glass insulator is a contributory cause underlying, as you put it, the floor being "so soft but powerful".

Craig, do you know if the four floor biscotti of your Acunto oven are cemented/attached to the surface below or are they loose?

Please, see the pictures below. The source of the images, except the first one which I composed, is:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/steveandzach/sets/72157625796217861/detail/

Have a great weekend!

Omid
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 07:02:05 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1703 on: October 27, 2012, 06:54:51 PM »
Here's another picture of another Ferrara oven being built. Please, notice the material on which the biscotti are placed. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1704 on: October 27, 2012, 07:08:42 PM »
thanks for digging those photos up Omid.  i have used sand under each of the 6 floors i have installed in my various ovens.  it works mainly as a leveling course but i imagine that it also affects the insulation and conductivity between the floor and the substrate.  Those photos show a masonry substrate of some sort.  that's what i'm wondering if works better than a possibly more insulating foam insulation layer that is often used with kit ovens now. 
i believe that most ovens have a loose floor in order to accomodate expansion.  The floors i have worked with all have a decent sized gap around the perimeter and the dome sits outside the floor.  these floors can also be replaced as i have found although sometimes getting large floor sections in through the door is impossible without cutting or breaking the slabs.  it's also difficult to install and perfectly align the floor pieces through the door.  I can fit into my FB oven door but the mobile oven doors are too tight. 
i would gladly give up some amount of floor insulation for the soft power if that's the trade off. 
Bill 

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1705 on: October 27, 2012, 08:06:49 PM »
You guys are simply amazing to me.....
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1706 on: October 28, 2012, 02:59:58 PM »
Thanks for the guidance.  There is a Home Depot nearby (although i do not have a saw that would work on steel).  What would you think of this:
http://www.amazon.com/PayandPack-MBP-Stainless-Charmglow-Permasteel/dp/B008F4HOSY/ref=sr_1_3?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1351356466&sr=1-3&keywords=flavorizer+bars

or this

http://www.amazon.com/Char-Broil-4986272-3-Piece-Universal-Vaporizer/dp/B004DCABXC/ref=sr_1_1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1351356625&sr=1-1&keywords=adjustable+bars

??

Aside from the convenience, I think it would be stable in the oven so as not to be tipped over.  I would assume they would withstand the heat since they are designed to sit directly over propane burners.

thanks!
Mitch


Dear Mitch, I wished I could formulate a definitive answer for you based on the disclosed information in the websites, but I really do not know how they may work in your oven. Good luck!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1707 on: October 28, 2012, 05:47:35 PM »
Craig, do you know if the four floor biscotti of your Acunto oven are cemented/attached to the surface below or are they loose?

I do not know the answer. Sorry.

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1708 on: October 28, 2012, 07:18:39 PM »
Someone who was in the market for a NP oven told me that the tiles are loose in the oven. When he was taking the VPN class over there, he asked a worker that question, his response was they have to be replaced every few years.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1709 on: October 28, 2012, 08:32:44 PM »
The floors are floating in most ovens.  You are dealing with and fairly large surface that is going to expand and contract as it heats and cools, so you want it to be able to move freely.

I personally think the difference you guys are seeing between the biscotto floors and the others is the same as the difference between baking on different pizza stones, conductivity.  I've recently done the math to see how much pressure it would take to dry press tiles like the biscotto tiles made in Italy.  Needless to say the pressures needed would be extreme for a tile of that size, and they have been making these floor for a few hundred years.  That tells me the biscotto floors are more then likely slab formed like pottery.  If that is the case they would be much less dense then a dry pressed floor, and as a result probably less conductive.
-Jeff


Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1710 on: October 28, 2012, 09:28:43 PM »
Mitch this Ash Gaurd is available from GI Metal as well I would be Happy to get one for you
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline mitchjg

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1711 on: October 30, 2012, 08:51:50 AM »
Mitch this Ash Gaurd is available from GI Metal as well I would be Happy to get one for you

John:  Thanks for the item reference and many thanks for the offer to help!  (sent you a PM).

- Mitch

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1712 on: November 01, 2012, 01:40:50 PM »
Never really noticed ash guards in ovens before, but now I'm seeing them in some of the ovens I photographed in Italy. This one is in Bologna at Michelemma...

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1713 on: November 01, 2012, 07:42:29 PM »
Just to add a question
When I mix a 65% hydration dough with 00 Caputo flour, the end dough balls are very loose and cant be slapped into a disc.
I mix for 20 minutes with 2 resting periods, bench rest for 2 hours, ferment in a wine cellar at 58 drg for 2 days, form the balls and let the rest for 4-5 hours and then disc them. They are so loose that I can slap stretch them maybe 3-4 times and often get a few very small holes.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Joel

Dear Joel, here is a suggestion for preparing 65%-hydration dough using your Santos fork mixer, Caputo Pizzeria '00', fresh yeast, two intervallic rest periods, and 22 hours of fermentation at controlled room temperature. First, I would like to briefly make some preliminary remarks. Indeed, as you mentioned before, "Santos . . . handles dough differently than the planetary mixers." Furthermore, I add that Santos, also, handles dough differently than a professional fork mixer such as those manufactured by Pietroberto or Mecnosud. Inasmuch as the dough capacity of Santos is much lower and its fork speed way faster than a professional fork mixer, it intensifies the process of dough mixing and kneading. Dough development happens much, much faster; therefore, one ought to be heedful as to when enough is enough.

Moreover, as you must have found out by now, Santos is not an autopilot type of mixer. One needs to proactively intervene in its operations during mixing and kneading. As a general rule, less manual intervention is needed with larger dough batch and higher hydration. Conversely, more interference is needed as the dough hydration and batch size are decreased. Since the dough capacity of Santos is low in relation to professional fork mixers, the dough is not massive or heavy enough to collapse back on itself after being lifted by the speedy fork. As a result, the dough keeps attaching itself against the walls of the mixer, not getting kneaded properly. In my experience, more dough hydration (for example, 61% or higher if using Caputo Pizzeria '00' flour), in conjunction with using at least 1000 grams or more flour (the more, the better), can alleviate this problem to a degree. A more voluminous and high-hydration dough is heavier, more flexible, and less stiff; therefore, it is more likely to synchronize itself with the mixer's pulse and rhythm, resulting in a better kneaded and more uniform dough. Fortunately, it is possible to make good dough with Santos, which takes plenty of practice and attentiveness in order to gain the needed skills. The mixer definitely has some great qualities and features that make it more desirable to me than my Kitchen Aid Professional 620.

Considering the above, I believe that 20 minutes of mixing is too excessive and intensive for the purpose of making Neapolitan dough with Santos. My presumption is that, after 20 minutes of kneading your 65% hydration Caputo Pizzeria dough, the gluten film becomes too thin and extensive (vulnerable to tearing), later on bringing about a dough maturation that, according to professor Raymond Calvel, is "artificial". Per professor Calvel:


"The process of dough maturation is thus linked, through the degree of development of the gluten network, to the level of oxidation reached in the mixing process. Furthermore, as the mechanical development and oxidation of the dough increase together [in an 'intensive mixing' session], the process of dough maturation will accelerate over time.

Conversely, whenever the mechanical development of the gluten network and oxidation diminish as a result of a decrease in the level of mixing [such as in 'traditional mixing'], it becomes necessary to lengthen the maturation period to obtain adequate development of the gluten network. Just as in the old days of slow mixing, this maturation is accomplished by alcoholic fermentation and the dough-rise effect that results from it. . . . the strength of the dough [i.e. the gluten network] absolutely must be corrected if the appropriate degree of maturation is to be reached.

When mixing intensely is limited (i.e., slow mixing with moderate mechanical working of the dough), the maturation is practically nonexistent. Alcoholic fermentation will be needed to complete the maturation, so bakers should schedule a relatively long primary fermentation stage, as was done before the 1955-1960 period, to achieve a natural maturation of the dough. . . .

In conclusion, it is vitally important to avoid over-mixing and the accompanying bleaching and tendency toward artificial maturation of dough. It is equally necessary to allow fermentation to play its very own fundamental and varied role. . . .

We have already seen that maturation affects the physical properties of dough. Barring some type of unforeseen problem, the degree of cohesiveness increases and dough extensibility decreases while dough maturation progresses. When forming or molding of the unbaked loaves is carried out (after dough division and the rest period), dough maturation should arrive at a certain equilibrium between its opposing qualities of extensibility and cohesiveness."



The following is how I would utilize the Santos dough mixer if I were to prepare Caputo Pizzeria dough, using 65% hydration (which is a bit high), fresh yeast, two intervallic rest periods, and a total of 22 hours of fermentation (instead of 2 days & plus) at controlled room temperature. I actually made the dough yesterday morning and shot some pictures, shown hereunder. Using the pictures, I will try to provide you with as much details as time allows me. Naturally, your circumstances may require you to make certain modifications.

__________________________________________________________________
Flour: 1400 Caputo Pizzeria "00" (Datum Point)
Water: 910 gr. (65%)
Sea Salt: 41 gr. (2.93%)
Fresh Yeast: 1.30 gr. (0.092%)

Dough Mixer: Santos Fork Mixer
Duration of mixing & Kneading: 4 minutes & 16 seconds
Using the direct method of dough production: Water (75.4ᵒF) ➞ Salt ➞ Fresh Yeast ➞ Flour (68.9ᵒF) = Dough (74.6ᵒF) [Room Temp. 71ᵒF]

Dough ball weight: 250 to 260 grams each

Duration of the initial fermentation: 2 hours at room temperature (70-71ᵒF)
Duration of the final fermentation: 20 hours inside the marble chamber (65ᵒF)
__________________________________________________________________

Picture 1: The flour to be used for preparing the dough is at 68.9ᵒF, which will have a bearing on the final dough temperature that I desire.
Picture 2: I poured all the water in the mixer bowl. Considering my final dough temperature, I brought the water temperature to 75.4ᵒF.
Picture 3: All the sea salt is added to the water in the mixer bowl.
Picture 4: Using a frother, I both dissolved the salt and aerated the water in the mixer bowl.
Picture 5: At this point, the salt-water temperature reached 73.2ᵒF while the room temperature was 71ᵒF.
Picture 6: Holding the fresh yeast between my fingers, I dissolved it in the salt-water by rubbing my thumb against my fingers.
Picture 7: Using a rubber spatula, I stirred the salt-yeast-water solution, dispersing all the yeast.
Picture 8: I poured all the flour in the mixer bowl.
Picture 9: Using the Santos, I mixed the ingredients for 1 minute and 6 seconds (while regulating the rotation of the mixer bowl with my left hand and guiding the mixture with the rubber spatula in my right hand) until the dough ingredients were just incorporated without being kneaded.
Picture 10: After 1 minute and 6 seconds of mixing, the dough mass obviously had a rough texture. I let it rest, while covered, for 10 minutes. One function of this rest period is that it prepares the dough for more effective and uniform kneading as the dough has a chance to absorb the hydration and, hence, loosen up. (This is not to be confused with the classic "autolyse".)
Picture 11: After the rest period, I resumed kneading the dough mass for only 1 minute (while regulating the rotation of the mixer bowl with my left hand and guiding the dough with the rubber spatula in my right hand). Naturally, the dough mass was more conducive to uniform kneading than if I had foregone the preceding rest period.
Picture 12: After 1 minute of kneading, I let the dough mass repose again, while covered, for 10 minutes. Scrutinizing the dough mass closely, I could feel the presence of subtle moisture, not water, on the dough surface, indicating that it was not kneaded enough to absorb the hydration enough.
Picture 13 & 14: After 10 minutes of repose, I resumed kneading for 2 minutes and 10 seconds (while regulating the rotation of the mixer bowl with my left hand and guiding the dough with the rubber spatula in my right hand) until the dough mass:

 a. Became homogenous, up to a degree, in terms of constitution and texture;
 b. Reached a degree of consistency (i.e., an agreement, coherence, or uniformity throughout the dough mass) that could be visibly and tactilely perceived;
 c. Possessed a degree of structure of its own, rather than being amorphous (i.e., lacking organization and form);
 d. Reached a relative skin formation, being encompassed by or embodied in its own skin. (At this point, the dough mass stopped readily grabbing the walls of the mixer bowl and held its own dough flesh within its own dough skin. It developed enough structural stability.);
 e. Reached my desired point of pasta:
    1. A degree of elasticity,
    2. A degree of cohesiveness,
    3. A degree of extensibility, and
    4. A degree of gluten film development.

Picture 15: Here's the final dough resting inside the bowl for 20 minutes. After a total of 4 minutes and 16 seconds of mixing and kneading, the dough reached 74.8ᵒF while I had targeted 73ᵒF. Close enough!
Picture 16: After 20 minutes of rest, the dough reached 74.4ᵒF.
Picture 17 & 18: Next, I placed the dough on the marble-top and examined it for further development of the point of pasta. The dough appeared to have enough strength to be carried out toward slow maturation.
Picture 19: I formed the dough mass into a dough ball, letting it undergo the initial fermentation for 2 hours at room temperature (70-71ᵒF).
Picture 20: The dough mass reached 72.8ᵒF after 2 hours of the initial fermentation.
Picture 21: Next, dough balls were formed and ready to undergo the final fermentation for 20 hours at 65ᵒF.
Picture 22: At last, here are the dough balls after 20 hours of fermentation.

This morning, I tried to prime my wood-fired oven to turn the dough balls into pizzas; however, I had to abort the operation, again, because of my neighbors. If time allows, I will use Bruno's Ferrara oven to bake them. Good night!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 12:45:47 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1718 on: November 01, 2012, 08:05:43 PM »
nice jewelry and prop..... 8)
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1719 on: November 02, 2012, 04:35:37 AM »
Omid, if money permits, you can always get one of these http://www.flameengineering.com/Back-pack_Kits.html. You can fire up the oven with little to no smoke because of the heat being so hot. Once started you'll only have momentary smoke when adding a piece of wood while baking.

Heres a video of Bill using his to start his oven. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isbfZSC_5Pk


They are great for lighting, but they won't stop your oven from smoking unless you leave it in there running until the oven is at full temperature or close to it. You don't need to spend anywhere near that much either. Home Depot has more powerful ones at a fraction of the cost. This is the one I use. http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100341111/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=weed+burner&storeId=10051


Gentlemen, per your recommendation, I purchased a torch, the one that Craig currently use. It is a cool toy, very powerful (500,000 BTU output). Yesterday morning, I used it to warm up my wood-fired oven for about 1 hour. When the top of the dome reached about 900F, I placed some wood logs inside the oven and set them on fire. However, there was still a lot of smoke bellowing out of the oven mouth, which caused me to stop the oven after I heard some neighbors loudly closing their windows.

I am thinking that next time I should use the torch to heat up the oven to higher temperatures for 2 hours instead of 1 hour. I appreciate any tips or suggestions that you may have. Have a great day!  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 04:45:49 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


 

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