Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 331053 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2061 on: May 08, 2013, 09:58:05 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2062 on: May 08, 2013, 10:45:15 AM »
Your beautiful pizzas and beautiful shots of your bake remind me that "I NEED MORE FLAME".

Part of my issue is that my neighbor usually runs the oven while I construct the pizzas. And he does not appreciate fully the need for constant rolling flame, since he is not on this forum and does no thinking about pizza except for on pizza nights.

Would you consider a move from "manning the oven" to "making the pizzas" a "demotion" in the paradigm of traditional NP makers? A serious question.

Thanks,

John K

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2063 on: May 08, 2013, 01:20:55 PM »
Great stuff! I love the Shishito Peppers & Spanish Chorizo pie!
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2064 on: May 08, 2013, 02:34:04 PM »
Omid,

I really appreciate the fact you've tried some old dough in the recipe. I want to begin trying this as well. Is there any particular reason you choose to include a bit of fresh yeast as well in the formula, and increase the hydration a bit?

I also assume the old dough is a percentage of flour weight and not water? From what I've been researching, it seems those in "olden times" those in Naples used to use old dough as 3 to 5% of water weight.

I also have another question; is your old dough weighed in it's more "dried" out state to use as a percentage in the formula, or did you weigh it before it was wrapped and compressed? Also, how many days will that keep?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2065 on: May 09, 2013, 07:45:46 PM »
Your beautiful pizzas and beautiful shots of your bake remind me that "I NEED MORE FLAME".

Part of my issue is that my neighbor usually runs the oven while I construct the pizzas. And he does not appreciate fully the need for constant rolling flame, since he is not on this forum and does no thinking about pizza except for on pizza nights.

Would you consider a move from "manning the oven" to "making the pizzas" a "demotion" in the paradigm of traditional NP makers? A serious question.

Thanks,

John K

Dear John, thank you! Please allow me to make some comments on "need more flame". Given the type of small, non-Neapolitan wood-fired oven I have at home, it generally needs, for obvious reasons, more flame during baking a Neapolitan-type pizza than the Ferrara oven that I work with at Bruno. That is basically a way of redeeming my non-Neapolitan oven. But, sometimes, there are exceptions. The Margherita I baked two nights ago (see the 1st picture below) was baked with very little flames (such as shown in the 2nd picture below); therefore, it came out a bit dry since it stayed longer inside the oven. However, sometimes the oven becomes so saturated with the heat energy that a little flame may suffice. The 3rd picture below is a case in point; the pizza was baked almost without flames and without stretching the bake time. Of course, the state of dough matters as well in all cases.

In some other thread, I noticed you were wondering that why I use the "steel guard" around the hot coals on my oven floor. The main reason is to keep the hot coals from expanding across the oven floor, reducing the bake space. In addition, the guard prevents the burning wood logs from falling on pizzas. Since my oven floor diameter is short (25 inches), I need to do this without resorting to removal of the hot coals. Perhaps, the last four pictures below (ordered chronologically) are self-explanatory. A lot of coals accumulate during each bake session. I should mention that my pizzas would bake better and faster without the guard.

In regard to your question, (i.e., "Would you consider a move from "manning the oven" to "making the pizzas" a "demotion" in the paradigm of traditional NP makers?"), it seems to me that being a banconista is a more prestigious position than being a fornaio in Naples. In my estimation, both positions are critical (while one might be more prestigious than the other), and each requires, as you know, its own necessary set of skills. Have a good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 03:12:46 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2066 on: May 09, 2013, 07:46:19 PM »
Great stuff! I love the Shishito Peppers & Spanish Chorizo pie!

Dear Craig, thank you!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2067 on: May 10, 2013, 06:08:29 AM »
Omid,

I really appreciate the fact you've tried some old dough in the recipe. I want to begin trying this as well. Is there any particular reason you choose to include a bit of fresh yeast as well in the formula, and increase the hydration a bit?

I also assume the old dough is a percentage of flour weight and not water? From what I've been researching, it seems those in "olden times" those in Naples used to use old dough as 3 to 5% of water weight.

I also have another question; is your old dough weighed in it's more "dried" out state to use as a percentage in the formula, or did you weigh it before it was wrapped and compressed? Also, how many days will that keep?


Dear Hotsawce, I believe you're referring to the recipe I employed in my experiment in Reply #2051:

   (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg249168.html#msg249168)

   Caputo '00' Pizzeria Flour (Datum Point)
   Water: 65.5%
   Sea Salt: 2.8%
   Old Dough (developed under pressure, akin to a legato, inside an imperfect vacuum): 3%
   Fresh Yeast: 0.03%

You asked, "Is there any particular reason you choose to include a bit of fresh yeast as well in the formula, and increase the hydration a bit?" Briefly put, the reason I included fresh yeast in the formula is because my old dough, by design, did not have much leavening power. I used the old dough primarily for its acidifying power, which translates into dough strength, flavor, and texture. Furthermore, since acidification adds strength to the final dough, you are free to carefully increase the hydration in accordance with the percentage of the old dough, its acidification potency, and the level of strength and fluidity that you desire your final dough to possess when matured.

With regard to your next question ("I also assume the old dough is a percentage of flour weight and not water?"), I used the weight of flour as the datum point.

At last, you asked, "Is your old dough weighed in it's more "dried" out state to use as a percentage in the formula, or did you weigh it before it was wrapped and compressed?" The amount of old dough that I set aside to be pressurized was much more than I needed for the final dough. 3% of old dough is too little to prepare for a relatively small batch of final dough.

With regard to using old dough in preparing Neapolitan pizza dough, I think that it can yield satisfactory results; nonetheless, in my estimation, it can be a precarious enterprise depending on the zymological state of the old dough before incorporation, the percentage of the old dough incorporated in the final dough, the percentage of salt and hydration of the final dough, and other crucial factors. In my experience, there is a fine balance that needs to be maintained between all these factors; otherwise, the texture and flavor of the final product will be compromised to a lesser or greater degree. Have a great day!

Omid
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 06:12:52 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2068 on: May 10, 2013, 07:35:34 PM »
Omid, bellissime come al solito!  Bravo!
Paolo

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2069 on: May 10, 2013, 11:24:21 PM »
Omid,

Thank you for your insightful and thoughtful response. After reading, it appears that your ember shield functions more as a means to offer you as large and clean a cooking surface as possible, as opposed to an "aide" to reduce undesirable charring of the cornicione. I should have known better.

Thank you also for the words about the pizzaiolo and banconista. I learned something!

John K


Offline hotsawce

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2070 on: May 14, 2013, 03:31:15 PM »
Omid,

Thanks for the response. As always, reading your posts is like being involved in a masterclass.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2071 on: May 17, 2013, 03:44:23 AM »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2072 on: May 17, 2013, 12:39:28 PM »
Omid, visually speaking I am not sure you can improve upon your pizzas.  They are stunningly beautiful.  Is there anything left you would like to improve with your pizza or pizza making skills?

Offline Mmmph

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Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2074 on: May 17, 2013, 07:09:54 PM »
Mmm, Culatello!
Totally OT, but Mmm if you want your signature ti read in proper Italian it should say.......

"Sono Venuto, Ho visto, Ho Mangiato"

------------------------------------------------------------------

Omid, keep the good stuff coming!..........
Paolo

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2075 on: May 17, 2013, 08:06:28 PM »
Totally OT, but Mmm if you want your signature ti read in proper Italian it should say.......

"Sono Venuto, Ho visto, Ho Mangiato"

------------------------------------------------------------------

Omid, keep the good stuff coming!..........
:-D
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 08:08:40 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2076 on: May 19, 2013, 05:01:07 PM »
Omid, visually speaking I am not sure you can improve upon your pizzas.  They are stunningly beautiful.  Is there anything left you would like to improve with your pizza or pizza making skills?

Dear Chau, thank you! There is still plenty of room for making improvements, no doubts. I am talking, in the main, about improvements that need to be made within the framework of an actual pizzeria instead of my kitchen/patio at home. Good day!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Polo1523

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2077 on: May 23, 2013, 01:57:43 PM »
Hello, I just have a general question, out of topic sorry, how much time do you heat up your wfo to have it ready to cook, and how much time do you heat up the floor with the coals.
Regards Leo.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2078 on: May 23, 2013, 06:52:14 PM »
Hello, I just have a general question, out of topic sorry, how much time do you heat up your wfo to have it ready to cook, and how much time do you heat up the floor with the coals.

Dear Polo, my oven is a Forno Piccolo by Forno Classico. It is a small oven with 25 inches of the internal floor diameter. In order not to bother my neighbors with the startup smoke/fume, I heat up my oven in two stages:

1. I cover the oven floor with two round aluminum plates. (See the 1st picture below.) Next, I put my torch through a single-slitted oven door (which I built out of aluminum plate), and I torch the dome until the oven walls reach 900F. (See the 2nd and 3rd pictures below.) This takes about 4 hours: 2 hours torching the center of the dome, 1 hour the right side of the dome, and 1 hour the left side of the dome. (Please beware that if a wood-fired oven is not torched properly, it may result in damages to the oven.)

2. I remove the torch and the left aluminum plate, put the steel guard in place, and, at last, place the wood logs inside the space defined by the steel guard. (See the 4th and 5th pictures below.) Once the logs start burning, there is virtually no smoke at all. For about 30 minutes, I keep feeding the oven with wood logs until the entire space defined by the steel guard is filled halfway with hot coals. (In my opinion, the proper formation of bed of hot coals is important since it vitalizes my oven floor. In addition, it helps to quickly ignite the new wood logs placed inside the oven.) At last, I remove the right aluminum plate about 10 minutes before I start baking.

What type of wood-fired oven do you have? The aforementioned procedure may not effectively work in other types of ovens. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 04:39:08 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2079 on: May 23, 2013, 07:25:49 PM »
Last Monday, I prepared some sourdough-based pizza dough using an old dough which was composed of flour, water, sourdough starter, and salt. The final dough (composed of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, 64.5% hydration, 2.5% starter, 2.5% old dough, and 2.9% salt) fermented for a total of 19 hours in mass at 64-67F and 6 hours in balls at 71-73F. I had never used sourdough-based old dough in order to make pizza dough, and the end result was not pleasant at all. They were some of the worst pizzas I had ever made. (See the pictures below.) Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


 

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