Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 375528 times)

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Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2220 on: November 01, 2013, 11:38:17 PM »
Omid I like your new epigram. It is as profound as it is inspiring.


"Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!"


« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 11:41:53 PM by Pulcinella »


Offline Oceans05

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2221 on: November 07, 2013, 08:09:12 PM »
Omid,

I'll be honest and say I've spent hours reading through here. Your posts are very passionate and it surely adds to the pizza art.

I have a question about your process that I could not find. When you bulk ferment, do you ferment in a container with a completely sealed lid? The few times I tried to bulk ferment, I have had an abundance of condensation and moisture develop inside the container, skewing my original hydration % because the dough absorbs this condensation. I am trying to learn from Craig's technique, and after I make the dough, I put it in a container, and put it in a proof box, and put a 24oz bottle of ice in the proof box to bring the temps down. When I started using the glad tupperwares for my dough, I poked a small hole in the lid to allow for air flow.

From what I've gathered, your process is usually a 2-4 hour bulk ferment, and then about 24 hour individual?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2222 on: November 09, 2013, 06:57:23 AM »
Omid,

I'll be honest and say I've spent hours reading through here. Your posts are very passionate and it surely adds to the pizza art.

I have a question about your process that I could not find. When you bulk ferment, do you ferment in a container with a completely sealed lid? The few times I tried to bulk ferment, I have had an abundance of condensation and moisture develop inside the container, skewing my original hydration % because the dough absorbs this condensation. I am trying to learn from Craig's technique, and after I make the dough, I put it in a container, and put it in a proof box, and put a 24oz bottle of ice in the proof box to bring the temps down. When I started using the glad tupperwares for my dough, I poked a small hole in the lid to allow for air flow.

Dear Oceans, thank you for the compliment, but please beware of the inadvertent inaccuracies and errors in my posts. Often I find out about them when it is too late to rectify them.

You asked, "When you bulk ferment, do you ferment in a container with a completely sealed lid?" I do not completely seal my dough container during the mass fermentation. I just let the lid freely sit on top of the container and let the biochemical reactions take place at room temperature. Some condensation may take place (depending on the room temperature) during the course of mass fermentation, but it is nothing objectionable.

The issue of fully sealing (making the dough container airtight) or not is a thought-provoking matter. Let me touch on three related issues:

Issue No. 1
There is one speculation that it might be beneficial to puncture few tiny holes in the lid to allow movement of air (oxygen) in the container during the course of bulk fermentation in order to promote Pasteur effect in the dough (which I think should have been promoted during mixing, not resting). I could be wrong, but I do not believe Pasteur effect is significantly induced, if at all, under the extant conditions inside the container, unless the dough mass is taken out and somehow infused with molecular oxygen. Nonetheless, if the concentration of sugars (i.e., glucose/pyruvate) is high enough in the dough, the yeast cells, according to the Crabtree effect, prefer the pathway of fermentation over aerobic cellular respiration—even if there is abounding amount of oxygen in the dough.

Issue No. 2
Then, I ask myself, "Why is the dough tightly muffled (deprived of air) inside a towel or linen in making a ligature della pasta madre?" Is it for the sake of enforcing anaerobic conditions, hence, fermentative reactions (which are anaerobic by nature) in the dough, and for the sake of trapping CO2 and pressurizing the dough as much as possible in order to rapidly acidify the dough? Or, is it for the sake of something else?




Issue No. 3
According to microbiologists, microbes, such as bacteria, can be organized into one of the following categories based on their ability to use and detoxify oxygen: (1) those that use oxygen and can detoxify it, (2) those that can neither use oxygen nor detoxify it, and (3) those that do not use oxygen, but can detoxify it. In regard to the image below, various bacteria can be identified as aerobic, anaerobic, or a variation thereof when growing them in a liquid culture known as "thioglycollate broth":

Test tube A: Obligate aerobic bacteria gather at the top of the test tube in order to absorb maximal amount of oxygen.
Test tube B: Obligate anaerobic bacteria gather at the bottom of the test tube in order to avoid oxygen.
Test tube C: Facultative anaerobic bacteria gather mostly at the top of the test tube because aerobic respiration is the most beneficial one, but, as lack of oxygen does not hurt them, they can be found throughout the test tube. (Saccharomyces cerevisiae, known as "baker's yeast", is a facultative anaerobic microorganism.)
Test tube D: Aerotolerant bacteria are not affected at all by oxygen in the test tube, and they are evenly spread along the test tube.
Test tube E: Microaerophiles gather at the upper part of the test tube, but not all the way at the top. They require oxygen, but at a low concentration.

Considering all the above, which is a more prudent course of action, to fully seal the lid or not? Does anyone know the biochemical mechanism whereby oxygen makes itself available to the yeast cells in a wheat dough? Does oxygen need to be chemically dissolved in the dough to be useful to the yeast?

Omid
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 08:32:48 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2223 on: November 09, 2013, 07:03:03 AM »
From what I've gathered, your process is usually a 2-4 hour bulk ferment, and then about 24 hour individual?

Dear Oceans, you asked "From what I've gathered, your process is usually a 2-4 hour bulk ferment, and then about 24 hour individual?" I really do not have a fixed "process" since I endlessly experiment with different flours, dough formulas, mixing operations, developmental processes, temperatures, and so on. I set for myself a goal to make a pizza dough with certain physical and organoleptic properties, then I try my best to accomplish it multiple times by taking a different route each time: long fermentation, short fermentation, low hydration, high hydration, and more. I value flexibility and adaptability. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 08:34:14 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2224 on: November 09, 2013, 07:31:25 PM »
Omid, can fermentation happen aerobically in yeast and bacteria? Why if yes or no? How do you define fermentation?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2225 on: November 11, 2013, 08:50:30 AM »
Omid, can fermentation happen aerobically in yeast and bacteria? Why if yes or no? How do you define fermentation?

Dear Pulcinella, your questions fall within the realm of microbiology, and I am not a microbiologist to be able to competently answer your questions. Nonetheless, I will try my best.

Fermentation is a broad subject, and the metabolic diversity of bacteria and yeast can make this subject complex and perplexing. Because of the metabolic diversity of bacteria and yeast, there are many different types of fermentation, each utilizing a particularized fermentation pathway. Therefore, for the purpose of answering your questions as accurately as I can, I will limit this post to only sugar-fermenting bacteria and yeast (such as Saccharomyces cerevisiae, i.e., the baker’s yeast) that are commonly used in preparing pizza dough.

First, let me make some prefatory statements. Fermentation is a property of (but not limited to) fermentative microorganisms such as bacteria and yeast. Moreover, each species requires a particular type or particular types of substrates (i.e., saccharides or sugars) to metabolize. Which sugars are metabolized by different bacteria or yeast vary by species and strains within each species, although some may have the same substrate requirements. In understanding fermentation (and various fermentative microorganisms), it is imperative to understand:

1. What fermentable sugar or sugars (such as glucose, fructose, sucrose, maltose, pentose, etc.) the fermentative microorganisms use as sources of food;
2. What end products and byproducts the fermentable sugars are converted to in the course of fermentation by the microorganisms; and
3. The conditions (such as anaerobic, aerobic, etc.) under which the microorganisms ferment the sugars.

For the sake of brevity, I will limit this post to only one substrate, glucose (a six-carbon sugar), which is the most common fermentable sugar used by the bacteria and yeast that we are interested in. Basically, to make a long story short, the starch (i.e., amylose and amylopectin) molecules of wheat flour are enzymatically hydrolyzed in several stages to form glucose molecules before fermentation actually begins. 

In the science of physics, "energy" is defined as follows: "Energy is that property something has that enables it to do work." Cellular activity or cellular work in bacteria and yeast requires energy. No energy, no cellular work. Fermentation (in conjunction with glycolysis) is one mode of production of energy in bacteria and yeast so that they can carry out cellular activities in order to survive.

Bacteria and yeast have specialized energy- and matter-producing "metabolisms"—geared toward their biological survival. Fermentation is a metabolic function of fermentative bacteria and yeast. What is "metabolic function" or "metabolism"? Metabolism is the critical chains of biochemical reactions that occur within the lifespan of a living bacteria or yeast in order to sustain its biological life by producing energy and matter. To be more specific, metabolism is the cellular chemical reactions that extract energy from suitable nutrients (glucose) and convert the energy to usable forms in order to carry out catabolic (destructive) and anabolic (constructive) reactions:

1. Catabolic reactions are energy-producing reactions. Catabolism constitutes the chemical reactions that break down glucose molecules (besides the protein and lipid molecules of wheat flour) into smaller molecules in order to release and harvest the inherent potential energy of the chemical bonds (covalent bonds) of glucose. Anaerobic cellular respiration (fermentation) and aerobic cellular respiration are two examples of catabolic reactions.

2. Anabolic reactions are energy-demanding reactions. Anabolism constitutes the chemical reactions that synthesize larger molecules from smaller molecules. The synthesis of smaller molecules to form new molecules requires energy, which is sourced from catabolic reactions. Hence, catabolic reactions (such as aerobic respiration and fermentation) fuel anabolic reactions. Yeast cell reproduction, growth, and repair are few examples of anabolic reactions.

The interrelation between cellular catabolism and cellular anabolism indicates that aerobic respiration (which is an energy-producing catabolic reaction), anaerobic respiration (which is also an energy producing catabolic reaction, of which fermentation is a part), and yeast multiplication and growth (which are energy-demanding anabolic reactions) are interlinked.

Catabolic metabolism in yeast and many bacteria is of two types: aerobic cellular respiration (which requires oxygen as the terminal electron acceptor) and anaerobic cellular respiration (which requires an organic molecule, never oxygen, as the terminal electron acceptor). Aerobic and anaerobic respiration are comprised of several stages:

1) Stages of aerobic cellular respiration (where oxygen is required)
    a. Glycolysis (conversion of glucose to pyruvate)
    b. Pyruvate oxidation/carboxylation
    c. Citric acid cycle
    d. Electron transport chain & chemiosmosis

2) Stages of anaerobic cellular respiration (where oxygen is not required)
    a. Glycolysis (conversion of glucose to pyruvate)
    b. Fermentation
        1. Alcoholic fermentation (by yeast)
            a. Conversion of pyruvate to carbon dioxide and acetaldehyde
            b. Conversion of acetaldehyde to ethanol (alcohol)
        2. Lactic acid fermentation (by bacteria)
            a. Homolactic fermentation (conversion of pyruvate to lactic acid by homofermentative bacteria)
            b. Heterolactic fermentation (conversion of pyruvate to lactic acid, ethanol, and carbon dioxide by heterofermentative bacteria)
            c. Homo-Hetero-lactic fermentation (performed by facultative heterofermentative bacteria, which can switch between homo- & hetero-lactic fermentation)

So, you asked, "Can fermentation happen aerobically in yeast and bacteria?" According to my studies, NEVER. There is no such thing as "aerobic fermentation", although I have seen many websites and books that treat fermentation as a partly aerobic phenomenon. Here is an example. According to the website "Bake Info - Baking Industry Research Trust" of New Zealand (which is supposed to be a professional website):

Quote
Yeast uses sugars by breaking them down into carbon dioxide and water. The yeast needs lots of oxygen in order to complete this type of fermentation.

C6H12O6 + 6O2 ←→ 6CO2 + 6H2O+ Energy
   Sugar           yeast          Water

http://www.bakeinfo.co.nz/Facts/Bread-making/Bread-ingredients/Yeast


The yeast needs lots of oxygen in order to complete this type of fermentation?!! With all due respect, this is NOT fermentation, not at all. I know this as an indisputable fact. The cited equation is the overall chemical equation for "aerobic cellular respiration", not "anaerobic cellular respiration"—which is comprised of glycolysis (as the first stage) and fermentation (as the second stage). Please, take notice of the "O2" in the equation. Any professional microbiologist will tell you that the fermentation pathway is not equipped with the biochemical mechanisms to utilize oxygen in order to bring about oxidation (breakdown) of glucose (C6H12O6) to carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). Indeed, we need to be more critical in understanding the concept "fermentation", for it is often confused—by both professional and nonprofessional bakers—with almost the entire catabolic metabolism of bacteria and yeast.

The overall equation for alcoholic fermentation by yeast is:

C6H12O6 → Glycolysis (Pyruvate) → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2
 Glucose                                            Ethanol       Carbon Dioxide
©©©©©©                                     ©©+©©      ©+©

(Each "©" stands for one carbon atom.)

The overall equation for homolactic fermentation by homolactic bacteria is:

C6H12O6 → Glycolysis (Pyruvate) → 2 C3H6O3
 Glucose                                          Lactic Acid
©©©©©©                                  ©©©+©©©

The overall equation for heterolactic fermentation by heterolactic bacteria is:

C6H12O6 → Glycolysis (6-Phosphogluconate) → C3H6O3 + C2H5OH + CO2
 Glucose                                                        Lactic Acid   Ethanol    Carbon Dioxide
©©©©©©                                                      ©©©         ©©        ©

Fermentation is always anaerobic by nature. To say that fermentation can happen aerobically is not only illogical, but also a biological absurdity. The fermentation enzymes, in conjunction with their attendant cofactors and coenzymes, can only bring about oxidation of glucose molecules by "substrate-level phosphorylation", which is purely anaerobic. When bacteria or yeast shift from anaerobic to aerobic respiration, then they need to use "oxidative phosphorylation" (which is purely aerobic), in addition to  "substrate-level phosphorylation", in order to be able to cause oxidation of glucose to carbon dioxide, water, and energy in the forms of ATP and heat. 

Bear in mind that fermentation is carried out with or without the presence of oxygen. Nonetheless, fermentation is a purely anaerobic reaction. While it can take place in the presence of oxygen, oxygen is never involved in the reaction, nor does it alter the reaction or its outcome. The technical reason that fermentation can never be aerobic is that it, unlike aerobic respiration, lacks the biochemical mechanisms of citric acid cycle, electron transport chain, and chemiosmosis—where oxygen functions as the terminal electron acceptor.

As far as the bacterium and yeast cells are concerned, the ultimate goal of fermentation, in conjunction with glycolysis, is to generate biochemical energy (about 2 ATP net per glucose molecule) by oxidation of glucose—without the involvement of oxygen. And, As far as the bacterium and yeast cells are concerned, the ultimate goal of aerobic cellular respiration is to generate biochemical energy (about 36-38 ATP per glucose molecule) by oxidation of glucose—with the direct involvement of oxygen. Good day!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 07:35:41 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2226 on: November 11, 2013, 09:05:27 AM »
Omid,

As fascinated as I am by the knowledge and effort that goes into your posts here I am even more intrigued as to how you have come to have such a profound depth of knowledge about all of the biological systems that you describe so well!

You certainly would have been a huge help to me in the past when I was struggling with these same issues in school! Thanks for sharing your knowledge so freely and eloquently!

John K

PS: When making beer, I remember that the "wort" was formed when I boiled crushed malted barley in water. The main purpose for this (as far as I can remember) was to allow the heat of the water to break some of the starches (in the barley) down into shorter polysaccharide chains. This in turn made it easier for the yeast (added after the wort was cooled) to convert those polysaccharides into alcohol.

Is there any way (or reason) that this process could (or should) somehow be applied to the dough process? Obviously cooking flour in water would be a seemingly bad way to start making dough, but perhaps if only a portion of the total flour and water were prepared in this way (and added to the remaining flour and water after it was cooled) it would have an interesting effect on fermentation time, and dough consistency. I imagine that the glutenin and gliadin in the cooked portion of the flour would be denatured and rendered useless, but surely a small amount of vital wheat gluten could be added back in to overcome this......
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:17:55 AM by Serpentelli »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2227 on: November 11, 2013, 10:25:04 AM »
PS: When making beer, I remember that the "wort" was formed when I boiled crushed malted barley in water. The main purpose for this (as far as I can remember) was to allow the heat of the water to break some of the starches (in the barley) down into shorter polysaccharide chains. This in turn made it easier for the yeast (added after the wort was cooled) to convert those polysaccharides into alcohol.

Is there any way (or reason) that this process could (or should) somehow be applied to the dough process? Obviously cooking flour in water would be a seemingly bad way to start making dough, but perhaps if only a portion of the total flour and water were prepared in this way (and added to the remaining flour and water after it was cooled) it would have an interesting effect on fermentation time, and dough consistency. I imagine that the glutenin and gliadin in the cooked portion of the flour would be denatured and rendered useless, but surely a small amount of vital wheat gluten could be added back in to overcome this......

To what end? If you want more fermentable sugar, why not just add it directly to the dough? Why denature the gluten and gelatinize the starch in the process? Sounds like a recipe for dense, gummy crumb to me, but I'd be interested to hear the results if you give it a try.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2228 on: November 11, 2013, 10:30:55 AM »
It might sell well down here in the South though. I can see the advertising now: "Here at our pizzeria, we add gravy to the dough."  :-D
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2229 on: November 11, 2013, 10:32:33 AM »
To what end? If you want more fermentable sugar, why not just add it directly to the dough? Why denature the gluten and gelatinize the starch in the process? Sounds like a recipe for dense, gummy crumb to me, but I'd be interested to hear the results if you give it a try.

I know, right?? It sounds like such a dumb idea that there'd be no reason whatsoever to try it. I guess its just the retired beermaker in me...

I'll let you know if it happens.

Totally agree with the "gravy inside" idea!! :-D

John K
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2230 on: November 11, 2013, 11:17:05 AM »
The yeast needs lots of oxygen in order to complete this type of fermentation?!! With all due respect, this is NOT fermentation, not at all. I know this as an indisputable fact. The cited equation is the overall chemical equation for "aerobic cellular respiration", not "anaerobic cellular respiration"—which is comprised of glycolysis (as the first stage) and fermentation (as the second stage). Please, take notice of the "O2" in the equation. Any professional microbiologist will tell you that the fermentation pathway is not equipped with the biochemical mechanisms to utilize oxygen in order to bring about oxidation (breakdown) of glucose (C6H12O6) to carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O). Indeed, we need to be more critical in understand the concept "fermentation", for it is often confused—by both professional and nonprofessional bakers—with almost the entire catabolic metabolism of bacteria and yeast.

In fact, facultative anaerobes such as yeast and some bacteria resort to fermentation precisely because there is no oxygen available. Aerobic reparation generates far more energy than fermentation and is always the favored metaboic pathway of facultative anaerobes when oxygen is available.  Fermentation is prevalent in dough because 1) there is very little oxygen in dough initially, and 2) the viscous nature of the substrate makes it all but impossible to transport a meaningful amount of oxygen from the exterior to the interior of the dough.
Pizza is not bread.

scott123

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2231 on: November 11, 2013, 11:35:22 AM »
Do the baker and the biochemist have the same definitions for fermentation?  Hasn't the definition of fermentation, for the baker, come to include all the biochemical processes that occur between when a dough is made and when it's baked?  If you go by this meaning, "aerobic cellular respiration", since it's occurring (to some extent) in dough, a component of fermentation?

It was/is my understanding that aerobic respiration can play a significant role in poolishes- especially when a lot of air is incorporated via whisking.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2232 on: November 11, 2013, 11:59:09 AM »
Do the baker and the biochemist have the same definitions for fermentation?  Hasn't the definition of fermentation, for the baker, come to include all the biochemical processes that occur between when a dough is made and when it's baked?  If you go by this meaning, "aerobic cellular respiration", since it's occurring (to some extent) in dough, a component of fermentation?

That may be the case, but the baker would be absolutely incorrect in his definition. Does it matter? A particular quote comes to mind: "If the pizza obsessives don't stand up and say "Stop calling that abomination NY style," if we don't take concrete steps to save pizza- to educate, the light will go out."

Quote
It was/is my understanding that aerobic respiration can play a significant role in poolishes- especially when a lot of air is incorporated via whisking.

I bet if you could ask the yeast, they would disagree that "a lot" of air is incorporated via whisking.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 12:00:40 PM by TXCraig1 »
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scott123

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2233 on: November 11, 2013, 12:57:53 PM »
That may be the case, but the baker would be absolutely incorrect in his definition. Does it matter? A particular quote comes to mind: "If the pizza obsessives don't stand up and say "Stop calling that abomination NY style," if we don't take concrete steps to save pizza- to educate, the light will go out."

In your example, you're pointing towards an, imo, pretty clear perversion of meaning.   Two professions defining the same word differently isn't a perversion. New Yorkers own the right to define NY style pizza.  For the term fermentation, ownership is not that cut and dry. The baker's version is certainly a looser definition, but I don't necessarily see biochemists as having the sole defining rights.

Fermentation is already an umbrella term for numerous processes occurring in dough, and, because of this, isn't appropriate for discussing specifics anyway. If I'm discussing enzymes, it's 'enzyme activity,' not 'enzyme fermentation.'  In that sense, Omid's original point that the term 'aerobic fermentation' is confusing is perfectly sound, but if one is in a mixed company of bakers and biochemists, a phrase along the lines of 'aerobic yeast activity during fermentation' or 'aerobic respiration during fermentation' shouldn't be too terribly confusing for either  party.

I bet if you could ask the yeast, they would disagree that "a lot" of air is incorporated via whisking.

A lot of it boils down to the consistency of the poolish.  If the poolish is just the right consistency, you can beat a considerable amount of air into it with a whisk.  A long time ago, when I was doing quick ferments and was trying to be frugal with my yeast, I would boost yeast activity via this method. It's a very limited scope, but aerobic respiration, can, in certain settings, play a role in the manner in which a dough ferments.

Mal

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2234 on: November 11, 2013, 01:20:22 PM »
re: pregelatinized starch
I've played around with adding a cooked flour and water mixture (i.e. wallpaper paste :-D) to dough to see what effects there were on fermentation time. The results were disappointing both in terms of fermentation (v. little difference) and the negative effects on gluten/dough strength. As I understand it, the starch recrystallises as the mixture cools down anyway.

I've read that some asian bakeries add this mixture (called ?water roux? I think?) to their bread doughs with the aim of making the final products softer but I highly doubt it's appropriate for pizza dough.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:31:54 PM by Mal »

Offline arspistorica

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2235 on: November 11, 2013, 01:48:41 PM »
Fermentation is a broad subject, and the metabolic diversity of bacteria and yeast can make this subject complex and perplexing. Because of the metabolic diversity of bacteria and yeast, there are many different types of fermentation, each utilizing a particularized fermentation pathway. Therefore, for the purpose of answering your questions as accurately as I can, I will limit this post to only sugar-fermenting bacteria and yeast (such as Saccharomyces cerevisiae, i.e., the baker’s yeast) that are commonly used in preparing pizza dough.

Indeed, we need to be more critical in understand the concept "fermentation", for it is often confused—by both professional and nonprofessional bakers—with almost the entire catabolic metabolism of bacteria and yeast.

To narrowly define fermentation in the strict biochemical sense (i.e., as a specific metabolic event or events performed in the absence of the electron transport chain) is but one way to look at things.  Should bakers and pizzamakers henceforth refer to their craft as "fermentation in addition to (or as well as) the 'entire catabolic metabolism' of the involved microbiota?"  Because aren't we, as bakers and as pizzamakers, concerned with more than just the metabolic outcomes of ethanol, carbon dioxide, lactate and acetate?
"Senza il mio territorio sarei solo un panificatore."
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Mal

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2236 on: November 11, 2013, 01:55:53 PM »
To narrowly define fermentation in the strict biochemical sense (i.e., as a specific metabolic event or events performed in the absence of the electron transport chain) is but one way to look at things.  Should bakers and pizzamakers henceforth refer to their craft as "fermentation in addition to (or as well as) the 'entire catabolic metabolism' of the involved microbiota?"  Because aren't we, as bakers and as pizzamakers, concerned with more than just the metabolic outcomes of ethanol, carbon dioxide, lactate and acetate?

Hear hear.  Fermentation is a very broad subject and necessarily so.  Soy sauce is considered to be "fermented" where proteolysis is the key process and so similar processes in bread making and pizza making should receive equal recognition for their role in forming flavor precursors.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2237 on: November 11, 2013, 01:58:51 PM »
In your example, you're pointing towards an, imo, pretty clear perversion of meaning.   Two professions defining the same word differently isn't a perversion. New Yorkers own the right to define NY style pizza.  For the term fermentation, ownership is not that cut and dry. The baker's version is certainly a looser definition, but I don't necessarily see biochemists as having the sole defining rights.

Fermentation is already an umbrella term for numerous processes occurring in dough, and, because of this, isn't appropriate for discussing specifics anyway. If I'm discussing enzymes, it's 'enzyme activity,' not 'enzyme fermentation.'  In that sense, Omid's original point that the term 'aerobic fermentation' is confusing is perfectly sound, but if one is in a mixed company of bakers and biochemists, a phrase along the lines of 'aerobic yeast activity during fermentation' or 'aerobic respiration during fermentation' shouldn't be too terribly confusing for either  party.

This is not about perversion; it’s about precision. In the sense of understanding and improving baking through the application of science as Omid has done here, one cannot use "fermentation" in the loose sense that perhaps some bakers might.

I would also add that using a word to mean something is not the same as it being defined to mean that something. There is no accepted definition of fermentation for baking use as there is for science. As such, the word is largely meaningless when used in any sense other than the scientific. This is where I was going (apparently clumsily) with the quote – just because someone calls something by a particular name, doesn’t make it so.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2238 on: November 11, 2013, 02:03:15 PM »
Hear hear.  Fermentation is a very broad subject and necessarily so.  Soy sauce is considered to be "fermented" where proteolysis is the key process and so similar processes in bread making and pizza making should receive equal recognition for their role in forming flavor precursors.

Because it's a broad subject we should broaden it further to include things that it does not include? What sense does that make?

(It may be time for a split subject)
Pizza is not bread.

scott123

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2239 on: November 11, 2013, 02:05:43 PM »
Okay, so, if 'fermentation' doesn't incorporate all the biochemical processes in dough, what's the term that does?  Precision or not, you can't just take away a term used by just about every baker and not have a suitable replacement. And, no, I don't think 'proofing' is it, especially since some people equate 'proof' with a single rise of the dough.

You give me a suitable alternative term for the whole shebang, I'll use it.


 

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