Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 288479 times)

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Offline arspistorica

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2240 on: November 11, 2013, 02:34:41 PM »
Okay, so, if 'fermentation' doesn't incorporate all the biochemical processes in dough, what's the term that does?  Precision or not, you can't just take away a term used by just about every baker and not have a suitable replacement. And, no, I don't think 'proofing' is it, especially since some people equate 'proof' with a single rise of the dough.

You give me a suitable alternative term for the whole shebang, I'll use it.

"Fermentation," as an historical term and before 1837, was applied in a general sense, as it is today.  In fact, most of the world's leading researchers on this subject (the microbiology of sourdough; the biochemistry of cereal sciences) use the term in this very way; otherwise, life would become very tedious.  It should go without saying one word can have two or more meanings.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 02:38:19 PM by arspistorica »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2241 on: November 11, 2013, 06:09:34 PM »
Okay, so, if 'fermentation' doesn't incorporate all the biochemical processes in dough, what's the term that does?  Precision or not, you can't just take away a term used by just about every baker and not have a suitable replacement. And, no, I don't think 'proofing' is it, especially since some people equate 'proof' with a single rise of the dough.

You give me a suitable alternative term for the whole shebang, I'll use it.

I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone's baking lexicon. I call it fermentation too, and functionally speaking that's what it is as there simply isn't enough oxygen in dough to worry about aerobic processes.



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Offline scott123

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2242 on: November 11, 2013, 08:09:02 PM »
I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone's baking lexicon. I call it fermentation too, and functionally speaking that's what it is as there simply isn't enough oxygen in dough to worry about aerobic processes.

Anecdotally, as I mentioned, I've seen the results in whisked poolish. Also, it's most likely insignificant, but I think it might be a factor with the air introduced with stretch & folds. John Fazzari seems to have made inroads in proving that stretch & folds introduce oven spring benefits that traditional kneading fails to provide.  It's probably just the introduction of actual pockets of air rather than the air's aerobic impact on yeast, but, at this point, I wouldn't rule anything out.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2243 on: November 11, 2013, 10:11:59 PM »
Anecdotally, as I mentioned, I've seen the results in whisked poolish.

What did the results look like?
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Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2244 on: November 12, 2013, 01:31:31 AM »
Omid, thank you for your detailed response. Apparently fermentation is lot more complex than I thought. Where does fermentation by natural sourdough starter fit in this scheme, if you don't mind? Thnk you

Offline arspistorica

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2245 on: November 12, 2013, 07:08:39 AM »
I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone's baking lexicon. I call it fermentation too, and functionally speaking that's what it is as there simply isn't enough oxygen in dough to worry about aerobic processes.

Just because oxygen is not used as the terminal electron acceptor in starch-based lactobacilli and yeast fermentations does not mean oxygen has no impact on the kinetics of fermentation.  Quite the opposite is true, profoundly so.  E.g., in the increased presence of oxygen the gene expression of Lb sanfranciscensis shows an over-expression of NADH oxidases in its genome, as well as gshR (gluthathione reductase) and/or other thiol-activated systems.  This has significant metabolic consequences downstream:  aeration (through stirring or even stretching and folding) generates the highest amount of acetate possible in most heterofacultative lactobacilli under equal conditions, say, in the presence of the other electron acceptors responsible for producing acetate (fructose, citrate, malate or pyruvate).  Oxygen invokes a stress response that can increase cell size, density and growth rate; induces greater barotolerance (and hence cold tolerance) by over-expressing proteins required for thickening the cell wall; changes dough rheology through interaction with thiol compounds; etc.

The above reasons are why Italian sourdough bakers (who are generally no lovers of acetic acid) go to such great lengths to limit their culture's exposure to oxygen (this is in addition to using lower-extraction flours and hydration rates; increasing the frequency of feeds and fermentation temperatures; and often adding salt to their starters).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 07:25:33 AM by arspistorica »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2246 on: November 12, 2013, 08:56:34 AM »
Omid, thank you for your detailed response. Apparently fermentation is lot more complex than I thought. Where does fermentation by natural sourdough starter fit in this scheme, if you don't mind? Thnk you

You asked, "Where does fermentation by natural sourdough starter fit in this scheme?" I do not know, but I can make some conjectures. If I understand your concern properly, this is one area that I usually struggle with. So, I do not know how reliable my answer is going to be. For me, the fermentative properties of sourdough cultures are usually more difficult to pin down and comprehend than the fermentative properties of Saccharomyces cerevisiae (the bakerís yeast). From my perspective, when I use bakerís yeast, I already know the microorganism that I am dealing with (namely, S. cerevisiae). In addition, I know its general behavior and metabolic requirements. On the other hand, when I use a sourdough culture, I do not know, with specificity, the fermentative agents that I am dealing with. Moreover, if it is a new culture, it takes me some time to observe and comprehend the cultureís general behavior under various circumstances.

If I am not mistaken, bakerís yeast is capable of only one type of fermentation, namely, the alcoholic or ethanol fermentation, which is basically a three-step process:

1) Glycolysis (conversation of glucose to pyruvate),
2) Decarboxylation (conversion of pyruvate to carbon dioxide and acetaldehyde via enzyme pyruvate decarboxylase),
3) Dehydrogenation (conversion of acetaldehyde to ethanol via enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase.)   

Generally, when you utilize any form of bakerís yeast (dry yeast, cake/fresh yeast, liquid yeast), you are basically using one type of fermentative microorganism to inoculate your dough with. On the other hand, when you employ a sourdough culture as your inoculum, you are using more than one fermentative microorganismóin some cases as many as eighteen (18) different microorganisms. And, keep in mind that the types of sugars required by different microorganisms vary by species and strains within species, although some may have the same sugar requirements. (To the best of my knowledge, bacteria and yeast can only catalyze the sugars that their DNAs code for. For instance, while bakerís yeast can ferment glucose, they are unable to ferment lactose, simply because the yeast lack the proper enzyme, lactase, to break down the lactose molecules. Enzymes are proteins and are coded for by genes. The bakerís yeast does not have the genes that code for lactase enzyme.)

Therefore, in understanding the fermentative properties of sourdough cultures, you are most likely dealing with:

1) Various types of glycolysis:
    a. Embden-Meyerhof pathway (the classic glycolysis, used by yeasts and many bacteria)
    b. Pentose phosphate pathway aka pentose phosphoketolase pathway (used by heterolactic acid bacteria)
    c. Entner-Doudoroff pathway (used by some bacteria)

2) Various types of fermentation:
    a. Alcoholic fermentation (used by yeast and at least one known bacteria, producing ethanol and carbon dioxide)
    b. Lactic Acid fermentation
        1. Homolactic fermentation (used by homolactic bacteria, producing lactic acid and no carbon dioxide)
        2. Heterolactic fermentation (used by heterofermentative bacteria, producing lactic acid, ethanol, and carbon dioxide)
        3. Homo-hetero-lactic fermentation (used by facultative heterolactic bacteria, able to switch between homo- & hetero-lactic fermentation)

In comparison, in understanding the fermentative properties of S. cerevisiae, you are essentially dealing with:

1) Embden-Meyerhof pathway (the classic glycolysis), and
2) Alcoholic fermentation (products of which are ethanol and carbon dioxide)

These primordial microbes, the bacteria, as opposed to yeasts, show a great deal of diversity in their metabolisms and fermentative capabilities, making us non-specialists really toil at understanding them.

It is said that one distinctive feature of sourdough microorganisms is their ability to symbiotically (non-competitively) ferment sugars. In principle, a sourdough culture is said to be composed of two types of microorganisms: lactic acid bacteria (for example, a species of Lactobacillus) and wild yeast (for example, a suitable species of Candida). Both microorganisms symbiotically metabolize the sugars in dough. For instance, while the bacteria concentrate on metabolizing certain types of saccharides, the wild yeast focus on digesting certain other types of saccharidesówithout competing with the bacteria over the resources. The bacteria ferment specific sugars to lactic acid if they are homolactic fermenters; the bacteria ferment specific sugars to lactic acid, ethanol, and carbon dioxide if they are heterolactic fermenters; and/or the bacteria switch between homolactic and heterolactic fermentation if they are facultative heterofermentative bacteria. Meanwhile, the wild yeast, akin to S. cerevisiae, ferment their prescribed sugars to ethanol and carbon dioxide.

As an example, let us briefly take a look at the well-known San Francisco sourdough culture. Basically, the culture is reported to contain two principal types of microorganisms: (1) heterolactic acid bacteria known as Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and (2) wild yeast known as Candida humilis. Generally, the bacteria-yeast ratio is reported to be about 100:1. The bacteria normally outnumber the yeast cells, as it is the case with other sourdough cultures. L. sanfranciscensis, which are obligate heterofermentative bacteria, require maltose (a di-saccharide composed of two glucose molecules) and glucose as the principal fermentable sugars. While the wild yeast are unable to metabolize maltose, they are able to metabolize glucose. The bacteria ferment the sugars via the pentose phosphate pathway (or the heterofermentative pathway), producing lactic acid, ethanol, and carbon dioxide. On the other hand, the yeast ferment the sugars via the Embden-Meyerhof pathway and alcoholic fermentation, producing ethanol and carbon dioxide. The sugar requirements of the bacteria and yeast and their use of different fermentative pathways do not promote them to compete over the resources, but create conditions under which they can coexist symbiotically. The bacteria cleave one maltose molecule into two molecules: glucose and glucose-1-phosphate. Next, the glucose is released into the dough and the glucose-1-phosphate is reduced to glucose-6-phosphate, which then goes through the pathway of heterofermentation to produce lactic acid, ethanol, and carbon dioxide. Meanwhile, the glucose molecules released into the dough can be ingested by the yeast in order to be fermented into ethanol and carbon dioxide. This is a very rough description and by no means accurate. In addition, it does not account for formation of acetic acid.

If anyone has a description or model of symbiotic fermentation by sourdough microflora, please share. Good day!

Omid
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Offline arspistorica

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2247 on: November 12, 2013, 09:58:26 AM »
If anyone has a description or model of symbiotic fermentation by sourdough microflora, please share. Good day!

Symbiosis (or non-competitive life requirements) in sourdough cultures is merely an outcome of whichever organisms are the fittest for a particular sourdough matrix at the time, and is by no means descriptive of sourdough microbiota in general.  There are as many stable relationships borne of antagonistic relationships as there are of synergistic, and these two elements will always be in flux, due quite obviously to the ability for "successful" (dominant) organisms to evolve to their external conditions.  These stable relationships come from these organisms wanting similar living conditions, just like roommates (e.g., in temperature and pH, the two most important process parameters for determining the make-up of a culture outside of substrate specificity), as well as having evolved similar stress responses to the harsh realities of living in a starch and water mixture.

Stability in a particular sourdough's microbiotic consortia is an afterthought; it only occurs after a baker repeats the same conditions over and over, selecting for whichever strains are the most suitable.  There's much, much more to this topic than just preferred carbon source (amino acid catabolism, e.g.).

Science understands very little about these matters but makes slow progress every day.  Even this past year researchers have uncovered species (both yeast and lactobacilli) never seen in sourdoughs before, some of which were entirely unknown before being discovered, and some of which utilise metabolic pathways never seen before.

The uniformity in species recovered from sourdoughs has more to do with human involvement than anything else, through our agricultural methods, dietary preferences, health-care technology, and so on.  I have long maintained Lb SF is and has been the dominant organism in sourdough much, much longer than researchers suspect (in the tens of thousands of years, beginning in Africa), and there's a team out of the Netherlands that will be publishing research pointing in this direction later this year.  Sourdough species should be seen as highly domesticated (selected for), similar to any other livestock that factor into our diets or living conditions.

Speaking of which, time for me to go divide a dough made up of one of these "wild" microbiotic cultures!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 11:33:48 AM by arspistorica »
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Offline scott123

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2248 on: November 12, 2013, 11:06:49 AM »
What did the results look like?

The yeast was considerably more active with whisking than without.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2249 on: November 18, 2013, 05:37:09 AM »
In light of the brief discussions we had in regard to aerobic and anaerobic reactions, I would like to share with you the pictures attached hereunder. Yesterday, using a double diving arms mixer by Pietroberto (which has an amazing ability to aerate dough), we made about 45 kilos of dough at Pizzeria Bruno. The dough was mixed for about 20 minutes without interruptions. When I turned off the mixer, the dough immediately began to settle down, whereupon I distinctly heard some of the trapped air in the dough to forcibly gush out, akin to a punctured tire rapidly deflating. This occurrence is not unusual; it happens often, both during and after mixing. Next, with the aid of a knife, I carefully cut a big chunck of the dough to take a look inside the dough mass.

The first and second pictures, below, show what I saw. Notice all the air pockets trapped inside the dough. There were multitudes of tiny air pockets that are not visible in the pictures. My Kitchen Aid and Santos mixer can not aerate dough this well.

I am not trying to imply that the dough was aptly oxygenated to promote aerobic cellular respiration in the yeast cells in the dough. I do not know if that was or was not the case, but it would be interesting to know the impact of the air bubbles, if any at all, on the metabolic activities of the yeast cells. Perhaps, as Craig stated, the viscosity of the dough makes it difficult for the oxygen to significantly penetrate and diffuse throughout the dough system.

As far as I know, oxygen (which constitutes about 20% of the air around us) need to be made available to the yeast cells. The cells, at least S. cerevisiae, can not proactively seek oxygen because they are not motile (capable of self-motion). Therefore, it seems to me that they need to go with the flow in the dough. Hence, the fluid mechanics of dough seems to be another consequential factor to reckon with. Last, I make the assumption that the water, used in making dough, holds a certain amount of dissolved oxygen, depending on the water temperature and other factors.

By the way, I have noticed that the air pockets usually disappear shortly after I take the dough out of the mixer bowl and place it on the countertop. I do not know how much of them escape into the environment and how much of them dissipate in the dough. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 06:28:54 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2250 on: November 19, 2013, 08:28:24 PM »
Omid, suppose the dough goes only through the aerobic respiration without being fermented. Is the dough gonna be any good to bake?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2251 on: November 19, 2013, 09:39:55 PM »
Omid, suppose the dough goes only through the aerobic respiration without being fermented. Is the dough gonna be any good to bake?

I donít think that is a concern. For one thing, remember that air is only 21% O2, also think about this:

Molar weights
O2=16 g/mol
CO2=44 g/mol

Density at NTP (20C/1atm)
O2 = 1.331 g/l
CO2 = 1.842 g/l

Therefore
O2 = 24.0 l/mol
CO2 = 23.9 l/mol

Aerobic respiration
C6H12O6  + 6 O2 → 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + heat

6 moles of O2 → 6 moles of CO2

Because one mol of either O2 or CO2 occupies almost the exact same amount of space, and there is a 1:1 molar relationship of O2 to CO2 in aerobic respiration, if there was only aerobic respiration, the volume of CO2 in the dough would be limited to the amount of O2 in the dough. Assuming that the N2 (78%) and the trace gases keep the same form, with only aerobic respiration, the total volume of gas in the dough after respiration would be almost exactly the same as before. I.e., it wouldn't rise.

CO2 is an indicator of fuel being converted into energy. Given that we know fermentation can produce many times more CO2 than in the above example, I think it stands to reason that fermentation will continue long after aerobic respiration ends given any conceivable amount of air trapped in the dough.
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2252 on: November 20, 2013, 08:56:45 AM »
Here are some pictures of the pizzas and appetizer I baked yesterday in my Forno Piccolo. My Caputo Pizzeria dough, hydrated at about 65%, was fermented at room temperature for 13 + 8 hours, using fresh yeast. Good day!
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2253 on: November 20, 2013, 08:57:24 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2254 on: November 20, 2013, 08:57:42 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2255 on: November 20, 2013, 08:58:08 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2256 on: November 20, 2013, 09:01:48 AM »
I love the look of the breadsticks - the way the close proximity in the oven shielded each other from the IR on the sides and only leoparded on top. Very cool.
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2257 on: November 20, 2013, 09:59:19 AM »
I've got 20 hungry teens coming over Fri night. The breadstick idea is beautiful, simple, and elegant. I will be stealing that idea.!

Can I ask what you put on top post-bake?

Thanks,

John K

Offline derricktung

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2258 on: November 20, 2013, 10:13:31 AM »
Beautiful pizza, and beautiful breadsticks! And glad that Pulcinella joined the fun... =)

Where did you get the frame to keep the wood in?  I'm starting to think I'd like to get something like that for my own oven...
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Offline bbqchuck

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2259 on: November 20, 2013, 10:42:43 AM »
Beautiful pies Bruno.

I'm also stealing the breadstick idea.