Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 519876 times)

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Offline gsans

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2350 on: February 05, 2014, 03:51:56 PM »
for leoparding, I think this was primarily due to the type and duration of maturation.

I make several test for this (same flour, same hydrat, same kneading...) :

- Maturation of 4-5 days in the fridge (+4°c): baking at 500 ° c: lot of leoparding
- Maturation of 8 to 24h at TA (+18°c controled): Baking at 500 ° C: less leoparding

Cooking with a wood oven at high temperature should also play its role.

As confirmed by Omid, the type of crumb obtained from many elements (maturation, kneading, hydration ...).

Sorry too for my bad english...


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2351 on: February 06, 2014, 06:34:11 AM »
My findings so far about the two types of crumb has been due to opening the ball. Seeing what they do at michele they dont seem to push so much air into the the edge keste style. That results in more leoparding. The other style pushing air into the edge results in less leoparding but fluffier cornicone. This is my findings so far.
Everything else beeing equal.
Would you agree to this to some extent omid or can you acomplish both?
thank you
sorry for my english  :-[

Dear Fagilia, according to what I have experienced so far, I am more inclined to think that the underlying causes for the two types of pizza crumbs—specifically Ciro Salvo's and Da Michele's crumbs—fundamentally have to do with (a) how the dough is formulated and (b) the basis the formulation provides for the enzymatic and fermentative reactions to occur in the dough. Hence, I am putting the emphasis primarily on dough chemistry as opposed to how dough balls are opened. Have a great day!

Omid
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2352 on: February 06, 2014, 06:52:58 AM »
. . . Omid at bruno's I am also very curious what is the outside temp (to the touch) of the oven surface after a night of service?
Thank you
John

Dear John, last night, right before closing the pizzeria at 10:00 PM, the Ferrara oven had the following outside surface temperatures:

Left wall (adjacent to where the fire is made): 144˚F
Right wall (across from where the fire is made): 178˚F
Vent: 177˚F
The wall/base below the deck or landing zone: 112˚F

Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2353 on: February 06, 2014, 07:25:42 AM »
Could you take a  picture of your crumb?

Last night, I baked some pizzas at Bruno Pizzeria, using my homemade dough and the pizzeria's Ferrara oven. Here is the basic recipe I followed:

  Caputo '00' Pizzeria Flour (Datum Point)
  Water: 65.5%
  Salt: 3.0%
  Fresh Baker's Yeast: 0.035%

  Straight Dough
  Mixer: Santos Fork Mixer (84 RPM)
  Knead Time: 5 minutes & 53 seconds

  Initial Fermentation: 5 hours at room temperature (70-73ᴼF)
  Final Fermentation: 16 hours at room temperature (69-74ᴼF)
 
  Dough-ball weight: About 250 grams each
  Final dough temperature before baking: 72ᴼF

The dough balls needed about 1.5 more hours to be in a better state of ripeness, but I baked them since the pizzeria was closing. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2354 on: February 06, 2014, 07:26:02 AM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2355 on: February 06, 2014, 09:50:03 AM »
Dear Tinroof, I tried to take some clear, close-up pictures, but my attempts failed because I did not have my tripod to keep the camera steady. As shown in the two pictures below, this is the best I could do under the circumstances. The first picture shows a piece of the buildup that I extracted from the surface of the dome of the Ferrara oven. And, the second picture shows the buildup crushed under my thumb. Good day!

Omid

To me, that substance looks quite a bit like potassium bitartrate, which I have encountered in making white wine. These are very small crystalline deposits that occur when white wine (and sometimes red) is exposed to cold temperatures. They do have a mildly salty and slightly tart flavor.  They occur when potassium and tartaric acid, both naturally occurring products of grapes, bind together to form a crystal. It's the same substance as cream of tartar used in cooking.  I wonder if these substances are present in the wood but do not combust as readily as the other products in the wood, and over time they accumulate on the oven ceiling.  Just a theory. 

Offline CJ

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2356 on: February 06, 2014, 02:50:59 PM »
Omid
Thank you for all your effort you put into this site. I apologize if you have addressed this question in the past but wanted to know the work flow from the first photo of the rough bulk to the second photo of the smooth bulk. Are there a few stretch and folds in there or just a large re ball after a sit.
Thank you
CJ

Online Tscarborough

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2357 on: February 06, 2014, 03:16:25 PM »
Omid (and Craig), regarding the encrustation on your domes, it is called efflorescence.  It consists of various salts baking out of the brick/tiles.    It will not hurt anything, even if you were to eat it, but it is good hygiene to remove it anyway.  It is common in masonry, normally being drawn out by the movement of moisture.  In an oven I would guess it is exacerbated by the high temps.  I have it to a lesser extent in my oven, Mainly because of the type of mortar I used for the oven itself.

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2358 on: February 06, 2014, 06:12:15 PM »
Omid your pizzas look great. How do you evaluate them, were you pleased?


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2359 on: February 06, 2014, 06:16:44 PM »
Dear Tinroof and Tscarborough, I thank you for your inputs. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2360 on: February 06, 2014, 06:44:12 PM »
Omid
Thank you for all your effort you put into this site. I apologize if you have addressed this question in the past but wanted to know the work flow from the first photo of the rough bulk to the second photo of the smooth bulk. Are there a few stretch and folds in there or just a large re ball after a sit.
Thank you
CJ

Dear CJ, the workflow was as follows:

1. The very first picture (the dough inside the mixer bowl) shows right after I stopped mixing upon the dough having reached the desired rheological attributes. Thereafter, I let the dough rest for about 20 minutes inside the mixer bowl.

2. The second picture (the rough dough mass on the marble top) shows when I took the dough mass out of the mixer bowl and placed it on the marble top. At that point, I closely examined the dough to make sure it had rheologically developed as desired.

3. The third picture (the round smooth dough mass) shows right after I formed the rough dough mass into a smooth ball by simply stretching the skin from top to bottom and tucking them under the dough ball.

Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2361 on: February 06, 2014, 06:52:52 PM »
Omid your pizzas look great. How do you evaluate them, were you pleased?

Thank you! The pizzas were average. What I have accomplished so far is merely a stepping stone, a transitional stage, toward what I really desire. There is still a lot of work to do. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline fagilia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2362 on: February 07, 2014, 09:40:17 AM »
Thanks for the reply.
Well at least your pizzas look more and more Beautiful.
Seems like I have a lot of work ahead of me :) So many variables with this Pizza Project.


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2363 on: February 08, 2014, 06:54:17 PM »
For those who are interested, the good news is that Ciro Salvo is establishing his own Neapolitan pizzeria. The pizzeria is supposed to open its doors to the public on Feb. 13, 2014. The address is:

Piazza Sannazzaro, 20 . Napoli

By the way, the pizzeria has adopted Marco Parente's Forno Napoletano oven. (See the picture below.) Congratulations to Ciro!

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 07:35:41 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2364 on: February 13, 2014, 05:38:57 AM »
Here's one of the pizzas I baked last night, a new experiment.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 06:25:17 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2365 on: February 13, 2014, 07:41:02 AM »
Omid - Of all the pizzas you have been exhibiting lately, this set is my absolute favorite. These pies exude the subtleties of what a great Neapolitan pizza should be which are very hard to achieve (for me anyway). How did you achieve such gentle and exquisite leaoparding, especially with a dough that looks to be much further along and at a higher hydration?

John

Offline gsans

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2366 on: February 13, 2014, 07:49:19 AM »
Here's one of the pizzas I baked last night, a new experiment.

What's new Omid ? a short fermentation ? (less leoparding) , just a suggestion...


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2367 on: February 13, 2014, 09:57:59 AM »
What's new Omid ? a short fermentation ? (less leoparding) , just a suggestion...

Omid - Of all the pizzas you have been exhibiting lately, this set is my absolute favorite. These pies exude the subtleties of what a great Neapolitan pizza should be which are very hard to achieve (for me anyway). How did you achieve such gentle and exquisite leaoparding, especially with a dough that looks to be much further along and at a higher hydration?

John

Dear John, I thank you for the compliment. And, I should add that I am an admirer of your works.

Below is the basic recipe I employed. Since the recipe calls for higher hydration and warm fermentation for relatively long duration, I think it is imperative, as I am sure you already know, to achieve the proper dough consistency and strength during mixing. Furthermore, I believe this works better when making a dough batch larger than usual. My dough batch was over 3,500 kg. At last, I believe this would not work without high hydration and warm fermentation. Have a great day!

Water: 1500 Grams
Caputo '00' Pizzeria Flour: About 2213 grams
Salt: 54 grams
Fresh Baker's Yeast: 0.45 grams

Hydration: a little under 68%

Mixer: Santos Fork Mixer (84 RPM)
Mix Time: 9 min & 51 seconds while adding about half of the flour gradually until the right consistency was reached
No stretch-&-folds

Fermentation Time: 2 + 18 hours at room temperature (67-72ᴼF)
Final dough ball temperature before baking: 71ᴼF
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2368 on: February 13, 2014, 10:20:14 AM »
Here are some pictures of the grand opening of 50 Kalò di Ciro Salvo. Sublime!

Source: http://www.gazzettagastronomica.it/2014/50-kalo-in-anteprima-la-nuova-pizzeria-di-napoli/

"L’impasto è molto idratato, solo una farina a basso tenore proteico, lievito, tanta acqua, oltre il 70% e lunga maturazione."
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 10:24:49 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline parallei

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2369 on: February 13, 2014, 11:23:35 AM »
Omid- The last pies you posted are lovely.

Quote
Here are some pictures of the grand opening of 50 Kalò di Ciro Salvo. Sublime!

I really think you are giving old Ciro a run for his money!

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2370 on: February 13, 2014, 12:18:48 PM »
If I had to pick I would grab the Omid Pie!
Congrats to Ciro! 
Oven looks very nice Marco! However the hearth would be too low for this big guy for all day bake.
Wonder what the finished hearth height is?  Also, I Love how its built in to the wall, and the tile is Killer  !
John
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 12:21:42 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline stonecutter

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2371 on: February 13, 2014, 12:53:11 PM »
Here are some pictures of the grand opening of 50 Kalò di Ciro Salvo. Sublime!

Source: http://www.gazzettagastronomica.it/2014/50-kalo-in-anteprima-la-nuova-pizzeria-di-napoli/

"L’impasto è molto idratato, solo una farina a basso tenore proteico, lievito, tanta acqua, oltre il 70% e lunga maturazione."

These look so much like the ones my family would make...unbelievable.  Thanks for sharing .
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Online Sirius

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2372 on: February 13, 2014, 01:02:11 PM »
I am so hungry for ciro salvo pie! I'm gonna visit in April! Cant wait
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 01:22:21 PM by Sirius »

Offline waynesize

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2373 on: February 13, 2014, 04:56:33 PM »
I have, recently, begun reading this thread. I started from the beginning, and have gotten nearly half through. I do not have the skills, or the equipment, to craft the pies that are being discussed herein. That being said, the quoted post I have included here, is a "game changer" for me. It may seem benign to most, but when put into context of my life, and current situation, it speaks volumes. Thanks, Omid. I have changed course, and see pizza, and life, in a different light.

Dear Tinroofrusted, I express to you my gratitude!

I believe it was the German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770–1831) who insisted that so long as there is no unification or synthesis of art, science, and philosophy (which subsumes ethics and values)—our education remains crippled. And, per the ancient Greek philosopher Plato (429–347 bc), philosophy always begins in "wonder"—which is why we are here. Right? In contrast, Arthur Schopenhauer (1788–1860), another German thinker, posited that philosophy begins not in wonder, but pain and suffering. I assure you that some of us, however unaware, are here in this forum particularly for that reason! At last, for Friedrich Nietzsche (1844–1900), in his own words: "The genuine philosopher feels the burden and the duty of a hundred attempts and temptations of life—he risks himself constantly. . . . And knowledge itself: let it be something else for others . . . —for me it is a world of dangers and victories in which heroic feelings, too, find places to dance and play. 'Life as a means to knowledge'—with this principle in one's heart, one can live not only boldly but even gaily, and laugh gaily too." Our education, wonderment, pains, temptations (not devoid of fears), risks, and gaiety are written all over this forum which is supposed to be about pizza!

Respectfully,
Omid

Wayne

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2374 on: February 13, 2014, 05:09:59 PM »
Here are some pictures of the grand opening of 50 Kalò di Ciro Salvo. Sublime!

Hi Omid,

Few more.