Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 496429 times)

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Offline trosenberg

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2500 on: May 13, 2014, 03:36:11 PM »
That is one outstanding "first attempt" !
Trosenberg


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2501 on: May 16, 2014, 06:05:15 PM »
Omid, the pizzas look great, as usual! I will look forward to your thoughts on the result. Thanks for sharing.

Wayne

Thank you, I will post my results when and if I do more experiments with mixtures of Khorasan and Caputo flours. Good weekend!
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2502 on: May 16, 2014, 06:39:16 PM »
What was your dough balls temp before baking your pizzas?

Probably about 74 or 75 F, which was the ambient temperature.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2503 on: May 16, 2014, 06:39:25 PM »
I'm curious what you think leoparding should be like in your opinion.

Since Neapolitan pizza is a cultural heritage of the people of Naples, one should attempt to understand the issue of leoparding, at least initially, from their point of view. Within the last 4 years, I have read many Neapolitan pizza reviews by Italian/Neapolitan food journalists. I do not recall a single review wherein the reviewer mentioned or analyzed the leoparding on a pizza.

Has a pizza, in Naples, ever been professionally known to be a better pizza on the account of its leopard spots? What is the so-called "leopard spot" or "leoparding" to Neapolitans? What is it supposed to look like, feel like, taste like? Is it an integral part of the Neapolitan pizza or is it incidental? Is it a hallmark of the Neapolitan pizza?—which is often used by many to superficially distinguish Neapolitan from non-Neapolitan pizzas. Do people of Naples consider leoparding a normative characteristic of the Neapolitan pizza? If yes, what is its value: cosmetic, gustatory, or else? These are questions that need to be answered by a professional pizzaiolo who has in-depth knowledge of the Neapolitan pizza tradition. The Neapolitans that I have communicated with on this matter tell me that leoparding is a highly misunderstood facet of Neapolitan pizza. Perhaps my opinion on this matter is just as misconstrued. As an amateur pizzaiolo, this is an issue that I can not quite put my finger on. It is ostensibly riddled with certain ambiguities, indecisiveness, randomness.

At this stage of my inquiry, I am of the tentative belief that leoparding is perchance of less fundamental gastronomical value than limited evaluative value. Yet, to judge a Neapolitan pizza solely on the basis of its leoparding sometimes or oftentimes amounts to judging a book by its cover. Even when the leoparding appears to be decorous, the texture and/or flavor of the baked dough maybe deficient. Conversely, when the leoparding, not browning, is absent or almost absent, the pizza may have excellent textural and gustatory qualities.

One problem is that, it does not make sense to me to talk about leoparding without having a clear idea as to what it is that we are looking for. It may seem inane or even comical to set forth a technical definition and description(s) of the leopard spots in order to be able to identify them. We are advised that not every kind of dark spot is a leopard spot, and that they can take on, within a limit, different shapes and sizes, which make it difficult to give a satisfactory, catch-all description of them because of their supposed randomness or variability. Criterial descriptions often tend to be limited, in many ways reflecting the describers’ practices and preferences, ruling out as much as they include.

Accordingly, viewed from one perspective, I rather lay off or play down this issue of leoparding as superficial or potentially misleading, especially when all I have is a picture of a Neapolitan pizza. However, viewed from another perspective, the issue is of substance. It is not that I am ambivalent about this subject matter, but that I believe there are more fundamental issues at stake than being obsessively preoccupied with attaining leopard spots, sometimes even at the cost of neglecting the texture and flavor of the end product. In other words, in my opinion, there are other vital issues that should take precedence before one can meaningfully reflect on the issue of leoparding. Back in my college years, I had a philosophy instructor who advised me, "In pursuing your college education, aim for knowledge, not grade. Grades do not necessarily demonstrate that you have achieved understanding. If you study for knowledge, the grade will come automatically." Likewise, perhaps it would be wise, particularly for a beginner, to primarily concentrate her/his efforts on the fundaments of dough production. According to Ciro Salvo, Neapolitan dough does not happen by just mixing the ingredients and letting the dough ferment for a period of time. It takes an appreciable amount of knowledge, experience, skills, and sensitivity to be able to make Neapolitan pizza per his vision.

As such, I think it would be prudent, particularly for an aspiring pizzaiolo such as myself, to focus primarily on the developmental aspects of making Neapolitan dough while placing more emphasis on factors such as, just to name a few, "dough strength" (without which a commercial pizzaiolo’s job can be a nightmare) and "texture" and "flavor" of the baked dough (which take considerable amount of time for an aspiring pizzaiolo to develop enough sensitivity to discerningly evaluate them). Then, secondarily, one can focus on the leoparding, which, under certain circumstances, can be used as a telltale, making certain revelations about how and under what conditions the dough may have been developed and/or baked.

For whatever it is worth, let me share with you some interesting observations a Neapolitan friend of mine made recently about the leopard spots (macchie di leopardo or leopardata). While he is not a professional pizzaiolo, he has limited experience in making Neapolitan pizzas, and he has examined the pizzas of a multitude number of pizzerias in Naples, where he has been living all his life for the past 57 years. His observations may not have professional value; nonetheless, they may have normative value, i.e., how Neapolitans, naturally not all, view the leoparding on their pizzas. Unfortunately, I can not say that I fully understood his ideas because of the language barrier.

First, he implicitly let me know that this is not a straightforward matter. Then, he made some correlations between the leopard spots and various conditions under which Neapolitan dough ripens. He also mentioned the effects of warm/cold fermentation, long fermentation, dough temperature, and oven management. Next, he seemed to make a distinction, not necessarily a separation, between the "leopard spots" and "burnt blisters", and sometimes between "well baked spots" and "charred blisters", in addition to "leoparding" and "browning". I am not clear on the distinctions he made, but I think he tried to tell me that burnt/charred blisters, depending on their sizes and distribution, are not considered leopard spots. He stated, "Let's say that without an evenly distributed amount of well cooked spots the neapolitan customer would send back his/her pizza." Then he added, "If you see a large, let's say over half centimeter in diameter, charred blister, that would indicate an over leavened pizza which has been also badly cooked." At last, he expressed to me that, if dark matter is smeared all over your finger tips after you are done with eating your pizza, then something is wrong. If pieces of crumbled chars precipitate on your plate and the table surface around it, then something is wrong. If you taste charcoal in your mouth, then something is wrong. He concluded his observations by advising me to bother with scraping the tomato sauce to see what lies thereunder. Good day!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 04:08:38 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline dylandylan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2504 on: May 17, 2014, 12:44:15 AM »
Nice thought-provoking post Omid!     I'm about to bake in an hour or so and I'll be looking at my own leoparding/charring/blistering with a refreshed perspective.   I had always personally viewed leoparding as a more of a by-product than an end in itself.   I also suspect that with sufficient experience (which I do not have) that you can tell a lot about a pizza by its leoparding.

In any case I hope others chime in, this is a great topic to explore.

Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2505 on: May 18, 2014, 06:13:04 PM »
Omid thanks for your response. Very thought provoking. You seen this video? Squid made the dough <<very professional just like Ciro’s>>. Ciro baked the pizzas. No doming at all!!! The dough was leavened for only 13+7. I can’t tell the difference between these and Ciro pizzas. They set a new standard for me to strive for. Here’s the recipe

L’impasto era un 13h di puntata e 7h di appretto più o meno, 1500 g/L di farina, sale 50 g/L e lievito 1,2-1,5 g/L (il lievito non ricordo di preciso perché è passato un mese e mezzo, ma le informazioni sulle tempistiche le so per certo perché le ho dette a Ciro durante le riprese). Panielli da 250 grammi.


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2506 on: May 18, 2014, 07:00:41 PM »
I had always personally viewed leoparding as a more of a by-product than an end in itself.

Your observation is eloquently expressed: "leoparding as a more of a by-product than an end in itself". At this point, I think what we call "leoparding" or misconstrue as leoparding is often taken disproportionately to the extreme, turned upside down, to the point of confusing means with ends. It makes sense to focus more on subtleties of making/developing dough properly instead of jumping to the end of the story and disregarding the plot. Perhaps, the moral of the story involves more important factors. Good day!

You seen this video? Squid made the dough <<very professional just like Ciro’s>>. Ciro baked the pizzas. No doming at all!!! The dough was leavened for only 13+7. I can’t tell the difference between these and Ciro pizzas. They set a new standard for me to strive for. Here’s the recipe

L’impasto era un 13h di puntata e 7h di appretto più o meno, 1500 g/L di farina, sale 50 g/L e lievito 1,2-1,5 g/L (il lievito non ricordo di preciso perché è passato un mese e mezzo, ma le informazioni sulle tempistiche le so per certo perché le ho dette a Ciro durante le riprese). Panielli da 250 grammi.

Excellent video, thank you! One of the best home-baked Neapolitan pizzas I have ever seen on youtube. I have known Squid for quite some time; he is a skillful dough-maker and very attentive to the minute details. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 07:16:48 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline dylandylan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2507 on: May 24, 2014, 05:40:25 PM »
On the topic of leoparding I recently baked with two different types of sourdough starter (my own home-grown 6 year old, and a newly activated Ischia from sourdo.com).   The starters produced very different leoparding patterns as an outcome of near-identical formula/ferment/shape/bake approaches.   Admittedly the starters probably have different optimal conditions, but I figured starting with an identical process is a reasonable way to observe any differences there might be.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28721.msg316983#msg316983

The differences in the final bakes went far beyond the visible, with the texture and flavour of the pizzas also completely different.

Offline DanielM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2508 on: May 26, 2014, 12:34:44 AM »
Hey guys,
I was just wondering if anyone has used this type of flour before? I came across this bag at a local Italian grocery store so I bought it. I haven't been able to find much information about it. I'll obviously be testing it out myself but if anyone had any tips for using it I that would be great! I read somewhere that it is formulated for shorter fermentation times but I don't know if thats true or not.


Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2509 on: May 26, 2014, 02:44:00 AM »
Hi Daniel,

It's a flour approved by the AVPN for the Neapolitan pizza

Polselli CLASSICA

Excellent resistance at high temperatures,
ideal for use in wood-burning ovens.

Rising time:
- 8-10 hours


I think you can go up to 24hours without problem.


Offline dylandylan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2510 on: May 26, 2014, 05:59:01 AM »
Actually some of the best pizza I can remember eating used this exact Polselli flour.    I don't know anything about it, but I'm very envious that you have some!! 

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2511 on: May 26, 2014, 09:19:19 AM »

Rising time:
- 8-10 hours


I think you can go up to 24hours without problem.


OK, what am I missing here? What is "rising time" and am I unaware of some property intrinsic to each flour?

Also, again, I am confused by "I think you can go 24 hours..." Don' t we do this all the time?

Thanks

John K
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Offline parallei

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2512 on: May 26, 2014, 11:37:58 AM »

OK, what am I missing here? What is "rising time" and am I unaware of some property intrinsic to each flour?

Also, again, I am confused by "I think you can go 24 hours..." Don' t we do this all the time?

Thanks

John K

In this context, "rising time" is the total fermentation time.  My bet would be at room temp given the flour is marketed towards Italian pizza makers.

This flour is 11.5% protein.  Like an AP flour, though most likely not malted.  The general thought is that higher protein levels are are more suited to a longer fermentation time.

Offline DanielM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2513 on: May 26, 2014, 11:44:05 AM »
I made some dough last night that I was planning to ferment for about 44 hrs. 3% culture, 60.5% hydration @ 61-62 degrees. Do you think it will hold up? I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2514 on: May 26, 2014, 12:15:24 PM »
In this context, "rising time" is the total fermentation time.  My bet would be at room temp given the flour is marketed towards Italian pizza makers.

This flour is 11.5% protein.  Like an AP flour, though most likely not malted.  The general thought is that higher protein levels are are more suited to a longer fermentation time.

That's like putting "Cooking Time 3 minutes" on the filet mignon package, isn't it? I know what rising time suggests; it's just that I've never seen the term,  or heard it referenced as a "marketable property" of any particular flour, regardless of its intended use or target audience. 

John K
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Offline parallei

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2515 on: May 26, 2014, 02:30:41 PM »
That's like putting "Cooking Time 3 minutes" on the filet mignon package, isn't it? I know what rising time suggests; it's just that I've never seen the term,  or heard it referenced as a "marketable property" of any particular flour, regardless of its intended use or target audience. 

John K

Italian flours are often marketed towards a target audience (in this case pizza makers) and recommended fermentation time is often a selling point.  Here are some examples:

http://www.molinopasini.com/it/farine/farine-per-pizzeria

http://www.molinospadoni.it/pizzeria.php

http://www.le5stagioni.it/it-IT/prodotti.aspx

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2516 on: May 26, 2014, 03:11:10 PM »
Well this picture says it all! I had no idea that things were so "fine tuned" with regard to intended use of a particular flour! All 00 is not created equal! Thank you for the education!

I'm not wearing hockey pads!


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2517 on: May 26, 2014, 06:54:55 PM »
I've never seen the term,  or heard it referenced as a "marketable property" of any particular flour,

Italian flours are often marketed towards a target audience (in this case pizza makers) and recommended fermentation time is often a selling point. 

I'm not sure I'd call it a marketable property or a selling point. It is what it is - a function of the relatively low W - an interpretation of the flour's spec. It's nothing unique or proprietary to this or any other similarly spec'd flour. Like you noted, it is kind of is like putting "Cooking Time 3 minutes" on the filet mignon package, but a bit less subject to personal preferences.
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2518 on: May 26, 2014, 09:43:12 PM »
I am clearly not at the stage where I need to fine tune the W Factor in my flour.

I think I am going to cancel my order for the Chopin Alveograph I just ordered.

Also, my apologies to Omid for derailing. But I do honestly thank Parallei and Craig for the clarification.

John K
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Offline Totti

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2519 on: May 26, 2014, 10:29:49 PM »
Why do we use Pizzeria Flour if Reinforzata is classed as a longer leavening flour?

Offline DanielM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2520 on: May 28, 2014, 12:27:27 PM »
I made a few pizzas last night with the Polselli flour. It definitely behaved quite a bit differenty than the Caputo flour I had been using. One thing I noticed is that the Polselli flour seemed to absorb more water. My dough balls spread out a lot less using the Polselli with the same hydration I had been using with Caputo flour. I also used my recently acquired Bosch Universal mixer with a bottom mount dough hook for the first time so perhaps that had something to do with it. My starter was also more mature when I mixed the dough compared to what I have done previously. From my limited experience, It seemed like the dough was perhaps a little over fermented, roughly 44 hours , 3.2% starter. This amount of fermentation is quite a bit more than suggested by the manufacturer, although I don't know how detrimental it is to the dough to overshoot that number. Overall I was impressed with the flour. I found the dough balls easier to handle. They were easy to open up but also stood up to a bit of manipulation. Compared with the Caputo dough that would seem open up if I looked at it wrong. Here are a couple of shots pics for what it's worth.


Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2521 on: May 29, 2014, 03:22:44 PM »
You know something may happen soon in San Francisco when you see Chad Robertson <<the Tartine guy>> with Ciro Salvo in Naples
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 03:13:15 AM by Pulcinella »

Offline napoletana4germany

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2522 on: May 29, 2014, 04:45:33 PM »
You know something gonna happen soon in San Francisco when you see Chad Robertson <<the Tartine guy>> with Ciro Salvo in Naples

modern pop stars. seeing those two dough cowboys together is kind of exciting.
but their meeting in Copenhagen was probably coincidental:
http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/christian-puglisi-relae-a-copenhagen-ecco-come-e-perche-apro-la-mia-pizzeria/72681/
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 11:54:24 PM by napoletana4germany »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2523 on: May 30, 2014, 03:50:29 AM »
Chad Robertson and the Danish chef Christian Puglisi (who is to establish a pizzeria in Copenhagen) are friends and culinary collaborators.

http://eater.com/archives/2014/01/13/christian-puglisi-interview.php

I doubt it if Mr. Robertson is going to establish a Neapolitan pizzeria in San Francisco. That does not seem to be his style. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2524 on: June 20, 2014, 07:41:11 PM »
Dear friends, I would like to share with you the results of an experiment I conducted last Wednesday. The experiment pertained to using wooden, instead of plastic, dough trays in proofing pizza dough balls. For this experiment, I built a makeshift semi-wooden dough tray by lining the bottom of my plastic dough tray with a layer of pine wood, 3/8 inch thick. (See the first three pictures below.)

By the way, pine is not the right wood for the task because it is a softer wood with higher moisture absorbency than hard woods such as beech or oak. I ended up using pine because that was the only available wood at the local hardware store.

To put my semi-wooden dough tray to test, I prepared a batch of pizza dough with about 67% hydration and used fresh baker's yeast to ferment the dough. After 12 hours of bulk fermentation at natural room temperature, I formed dough balls (about 250 grams each) and placed them in the dough tray lined with the pine wood. Next, I let the dough balls proof for 7 hours at room temperature.

First, after the 7-hour proofing, I noticed that the dough balls leavened (rose) more than usual without horizontally spreading as much as they usually do within the same timeframe and temperature range. (See the fourth picture below.)

Second, I noticed that it was much easier to extract a dough ball out of the tray. My dough scraper almost effortlessly slid under the dough balls inside the tray.

Third, I noticed that I had to use less dusting to open my dough balls into dough discs.

Fourth, likewise I had to use very little flour to no flour at all on the pizza peel. It was much easier than usual to slide the pizzas from the peel onto the oven floor.

Why? A possible explanation that comes to my mind at this point is that, the wooden surface absorbed some moisture from the dough balls, hence dehydrating—not drying—and sealing the bottoms of the dough balls, which I usually use as the bottom of my pizzas. (See the 5th and 6th pictures below.) Take notice how smooth and unsticky the bottom surface of the dough ball is. In contrast to the dough ball proofed on the pine wood, take a look at the 7th picture, below, which exhibits the bottom surface of a dough ball proofed in a plastic dough tray without the wooden surface. Notice how rough and sticky it is. Naturally, it is going to require more flour to smooth it out. I think using wooden dough trays can prove to be quite practical when the dough hydration is high.

At last, I do not know much about the physical properties of different types of wood, but it appears to me that wood might be a better regulator of dough temperature. If anyone is knowledgable in this area, please share your knowledge. Good weekend!

Omid
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 05:45:45 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/