Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 344254 times)

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Offline DanielM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2520 on: May 28, 2014, 12:27:27 PM »
I made a few pizzas last night with the Polselli flour. It definitely behaved quite a bit differenty than the Caputo flour I had been using. One thing I noticed is that the Polselli flour seemed to absorb more water. My dough balls spread out a lot less using the Polselli with the same hydration I had been using with Caputo flour. I also used my recently acquired Bosch Universal mixer with a bottom mount dough hook for the first time so perhaps that had something to do with it. My starter was also more mature when I mixed the dough compared to what I have done previously. From my limited experience, It seemed like the dough was perhaps a little over fermented, roughly 44 hours , 3.2% starter. This amount of fermentation is quite a bit more than suggested by the manufacturer, although I don't know how detrimental it is to the dough to overshoot that number. Overall I was impressed with the flour. I found the dough balls easier to handle. They were easy to open up but also stood up to a bit of manipulation. Compared with the Caputo dough that would seem open up if I looked at it wrong. Here are a couple of shots pics for what it's worth.



Offline Pulcinella

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2521 on: May 29, 2014, 03:22:44 PM »
You know something may happen soon in San Francisco when you see Chad Robertson <<the Tartine guy>> with Ciro Salvo in Naples
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 03:13:15 AM by Pulcinella »

Offline napoletana4germany

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2522 on: May 29, 2014, 04:45:33 PM »
You know something gonna happen soon in San Francisco when you see Chad Robertson <<the Tartine guy>> with Ciro Salvo in Naples


modern pop stars. seeing those two dough cowboys together is kind of exciting.
but their meeting in Copenhagen was probably coincidental:
http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/christian-puglisi-relae-a-copenhagen-ecco-come-e-perche-apro-la-mia-pizzeria/72681/
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 11:54:24 PM by napoletana4germany »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2523 on: May 30, 2014, 03:50:29 AM »
Chad Robertson and the Danish chef Christian Puglisi (who is to establish a pizzeria in Copenhagen) are friends and culinary collaborators.

http://eater.com/archives/2014/01/13/christian-puglisi-interview.php

I doubt it if Mr. Robertson is going to establish a Neapolitan pizzeria in San Francisco. That does not seem to be his style. Good day!
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2524 on: June 20, 2014, 07:41:11 PM »
Dear friends, I would like to share with you the results of an experiment I conducted last Wednesday. The experiment pertained to using wooden, instead of plastic, dough trays in proofing pizza dough balls. For this experiment, I built a makeshift semi-wooden dough tray by lining the bottom of my plastic dough tray with a layer of pine wood, 3/8 inch thick. (See the first three pictures below.)

By the way, pine is not the right wood for the task because it is a softer wood with higher moisture absorbency than hard woods such as beech or oak. I ended up using pine because that was the only available wood at the local hardware store.

To put my semi-wooden dough tray to test, I prepared a batch of pizza dough with about 67% hydration and used fresh baker's yeast to ferment the dough. After 12 hours of bulk fermentation at natural room temperature, I formed dough balls (about 250 grams each) and placed them in the dough tray lined with the pine wood. Next, I let the dough balls proof for 7 hours at room temperature.

First, after the 7-hour proofing, I noticed that the dough balls leavened (rose) more than usual without horizontally spreading as much as they usually do within the same timeframe and temperature range. (See the fourth picture below.)

Second, I noticed that it was much easier to extract a dough ball out of the tray. My dough scraper almost effortlessly slid under the dough balls inside the tray.

Third, I noticed that I had to use less dusting to open my dough balls into dough discs.

Fourth, likewise I had to use very little flour to no flour at all on the pizza peel. It was much easier than usual to slide the pizzas from the peel onto the oven floor.

Why? A possible explanation that comes to my mind at this point is that, the wooden surface absorbed some moisture from the dough balls, hence dehydrating—not drying—and sealing the bottoms of the dough balls, which I usually use as the bottom of my pizzas. (See the 5th and 6th pictures below.) Take notice how smooth and unsticky the bottom surface of the dough ball is. In contrast to the dough ball proofed on the pine wood, take a look at the 7th picture, below, which exhibits the bottom surface of a dough ball proofed in a plastic dough tray without the wooden surface. Notice how rough and sticky it is. Naturally, it is going to require more flour to smooth it out. I think using wooden dough trays can prove to be quite practical when the dough hydration is high.

At last, I do not know much about the physical properties of different types of wood, but it appears to me that wood might be a better regulator of dough temperature. If anyone is knowledgable in this area, please share your knowledge. Good weekend!

Omid
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 05:45:45 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2525 on: June 20, 2014, 07:48:40 PM »
By the way, here is how the pizza (made with the dough ball resting on the plate, above) turned out. Please excuse my excessive use of fresh mozzarella on the pizza!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2526 on: June 20, 2014, 08:01:08 PM »
thanks for the test,very interesting result. that pizza looks amazing, as i am a fan of a little extra mozzarella on my pies.

Offline stonecutter

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2527 on: June 20, 2014, 08:54:23 PM »
My nonna used old wooden proofing trays.   I looked hard for them online, found some and they are more than I want to spend...plus they look wicked easy to make.  They made theirs out of poplar, so I'm going to try that, and I also have some maple laying around too.   I'm not sure about using oak.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2528 on: June 20, 2014, 08:56:38 PM »
At last, I do not know much about the physical properties of wood, but it appears to me that wood is perhaps a better regulator of dough temperature. If anyone is knowledgable in this area, please share your knowledge. Good weekend!

Omid

Omid,

Several years ago, I did some research on wooden dough boxes and reported on my results in Reply 516 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg31992#msg31992. You might also look at the following Replies 517 and 518. A few years later, I updated that research a bit and reported on what I learned at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9482.msg82065#msg82065. Although you may not have an interest in using wooden dough boxes in a cooler, they can so be stored, as I noted in Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9820.msg85713#msg85713.

Peter

Offline fornographer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2529 on: June 20, 2014, 09:01:06 PM »
Aha. This may be why Ciro Salvo is frequently seen using wooden trays for his very high hydration dough. Thanks for posting.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2530 on: June 21, 2014, 12:30:37 AM »
I made a few pizzas last night with the Polselli flour. It definitely behaved quite a bit differenty than the Caputo flour I had been using. One thing I noticed is that the Polselli flour seemed to absorb more water. My dough balls spread out a lot less using the Polselli with the same hydration I had been using with Caputo flour. I also used my recently acquired Bosch Universal mixer with a bottom mount dough hook for the first time so perhaps that had something to do with it. My starter was also more mature when I mixed the dough compared to what I have done previously. From my limited experience, It seemed like the dough was perhaps a little over fermented, roughly 44 hours , 3.2% starter. This amount of fermentation is quite a bit more than suggested by the manufacturer, although I don't know how detrimental it is to the dough to overshoot that number. Overall I was impressed with the flour. I found the dough balls easier to handle. They were easy to open up but also stood up to a bit of manipulation. Compared with the Caputo dough that would seem open up if I looked at it wrong. Here are a couple of shots pics for what it's worth.
Nice work Daniel.....those are 2 beautiful looking pies.  :chef:
Please keep 'em coming!

CB
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2531 on: June 21, 2014, 04:25:40 AM »
Omid,

Several years ago, I did some research on wooden dough boxes and reported on my results in Reply 516 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg31992#msg31992. You might also look at the following Replies 517 and 518. A few years later, I updated that research a bit and reported on what I learned at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9482.msg82065#msg82065. Although you may not have an interest in using wooden dough boxes in a cooler, they can so be stored, as I noted in Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9820.msg85713#msg85713.

Peter


Dear Peter, I thank you very much for the interesting links. I noticed that some of my observations, made above, seem to be in agreement with Marco Parente's comments made about wooden dough boxes:

Unfortunately the wood boxes (you do not flour the ball in these) are disappearing even in Naples. The advantage of the wood boxes is that retain some of the moisture from the outer dough ball, without drying it out. This then allows you to use less bench flour even though the dough is still very moist. The wood helps as well to keep a constant temperature.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 02:29:33 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline norma427

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2532 on: June 21, 2014, 04:37:52 AM »
Omid,

Thanks for your report about using wood for the bottom of your dough box.  That is interesting that the wood seems to take the moisture out of the bottom of the dough ball.  I have wondered about wooden dough boxes for awhile.  I was at Star Tavern in Orange, NJ not to long ago.  Gary the owner was telling me about what happened over the years his family had owned Star Tavern.  They did a remodel of part of their pizzeria and Gary told me for many years there were a lot of wooden drawers that held their dough balls.  I asked Gary if they saved any of the wooden drawers after the remodel and he said they were thrown away.  I thought what a shame because it would have been nice to try them and I thought at least one would have been memories of years ago.  I also think the old De Lorenzo's used to use wooden drawers for their dough balls. 

I saw not too long ago that Andrew Bellucci posted at Reply 25  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30548.msg308297#msg308297 that he was going to have 20 wood dough boxes made.

pftaylor also used a wooden dough box at reply 716 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1258.msg68640#msg68640   At Reply 658 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1258.msg65498#msg65498 pftaylor explained how he made the wooden dough boxes. 

Sammybotz posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23920.msg242872#msg242872 that his family used wooden dough boxes years ago.

There is another thread about wooden dough boxes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9524.msg82484#msg82484

Since you posted about using wood in a dough box I might try out a wooden box I had stored in my one shed.  I believe that wooden box was used to make candy years ago so it should be okay to store a dough ball or so while it/they are fermenting.  I am not sure what kind of wood the candy tray is made from.

There are probably more posts about wooden dough boxes here on the forum.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 04:44:14 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2533 on: June 21, 2014, 05:35:02 AM »
thanks for the test,very interesting result. that pizza looks amazing, as i am a fan of a little extra mozzarella on my pies.

Dear Larry, thank you!

My nonna used old wooden proofing trays.   I looked hard for them online, found some and they are more than I want to spend...plus they look wicked easy to make.  They made theirs out of poplar, so I'm going to try that, and I also have some maple laying around too.   I'm not sure about using oak.

Dear Stonecutter, what are your concerns about using oak? I should have mentioned in my original post above that after the pine wood absorbed some moisture from the dough balls, it expanded horizontally and warped upward so much that some of the dough balls were pressed against the lid. Therefore, whatever type of wood one uses to build a dough box should be up to the task and durable enough to last a long time. I could be wrong, but I think they use beech or birch in Naples to make dough boxes. Does anyone know? Have a great day!

Aha. This may be why Ciro Salvo is frequently seen using wooden trays for his very high hydration dough.

Dear Fornographer, I can not think of any other reasons. Good day!

Thanks for your report about using wood for the bottom of your dough box.  That is interesting that the wood seems to take the moisture out of the bottom of the dough ball.  I have wondered about wooden dough boxes for awhile . . . .

Dear Norma, thank you for all the information and links. I hope to see you soon!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline fornographer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2534 on: June 21, 2014, 06:59:26 AM »
Here a very old video of Tony testing different kinds boxes.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YPPPuqy9WE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YPPPuqy9WE</a>

Offline stonecutter

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2535 on: June 21, 2014, 07:07:45 AM »


Dear Stonecutter, what are your concerns about using oak? I should have mentioned in my original post above that after the pine wood absorbed some moisture from the dough balls, it expanded horizontally and warped upward so much that some of the dough balls were pressed against the lid. Therefore, whatever type of wood one uses to build a dough box should be up to the task and durable enough to last a long time. I could be wrong, but I think they use beech or birch in Naples to make dough boxes. Does anyone know? Have a great day!


I don't have any major concern, but since oak has heavy tannins I'm not sure if that would effect the dough.  Probably not, since it wouldn't be in the box that long.  I'm not sure what they use in Naples, I haven't been there yet.  Poplar what I have seen them made from...it's a stable wood used for trim, and I'll dove tail the corners together. I may even double up on the walls just to stiffen it up..there's a couple ideas floating around.
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Offline fornographer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2536 on: June 21, 2014, 07:18:19 AM »
According to this person from Marsal, they are typically made from pine.


http://www.pmq.com/May-June-2004/Whats-With-the-WoodDough-Boxes/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2537 on: June 21, 2014, 09:31:48 AM »
I should have mentioned in my original post above that after the pine wood absorbed some moisture from the dough balls, it expanded horizontally and warped upward so much that some of the dough balls were pressed against the lid.

Having only a thin wood floor made this relatively easy for the wood to do. Vertical walls attached to the base as you would have in a full wood box would add a lot of rigidity and make warping much more difficult.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2538 on: June 21, 2014, 09:35:09 AM »
According to this person from Marsal, they are typically made from pine.


http://www.pmq.com/May-June-2004/Whats-With-the-WoodDough-Boxes/


That's interesting. I looked up Marsal dough boxes and they are made from poplar: http://www.marsalsons.com/doughboxes.aspx
Pizza is not bread.

Offline sub

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2539 on: June 21, 2014, 10:32:18 AM »
In Italy they uses beech (faggio)

Contenitore Impasto Pizza Legno Faggio

My woodbox made in pine remove too much moisture from the dough balls.