Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 483188 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12492
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2650 on: August 02, 2014, 03:32:46 PM »
Omid, are the non DOP tomato product available to the public...where can I purchase?  Thank you.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 396
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2651 on: August 02, 2014, 04:25:45 PM »
Thank you,
Yes I have myself been playing around with this the last weeks.
As the Basil I grow gets older and the the stem gets more tree like, the leaves also tent to get stiffer and not collapse over the sauce as easy as before.
Therefore i have been experiencing more charring on basil.


Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2652 on: August 02, 2014, 05:01:22 PM »
Omid,
I once noticed the beautiful basil on one of your pizzas and guessed that you may have sprayed it with water pre-bake so I tried that and it seemed to work well.  I used an atomizer.  I don't think I ever asked you about that.  was I right?
bill

Offline Pizza-Dude

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 70
  • Location: Beverly Hills, CA
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2653 on: August 03, 2014, 03:13:37 AM »
I finally got some beech and made a dough box with it. I tested it three days ago. To do so, I made a Caputo "00" Pizzeria dough, which had a bit over 68% of hydration. The total fermentation time was about 15 hours all together.

According to my experience, beech seems to be a denser and heavier type of wood than poplar. It is also more expensive than poplar, at least here in San Diego. If I am not mistaken, beech absorbs less dough moisture than poplar. It is also a bit easier to clean than poplar. Overall, I think both beech and poplar are suitable for making dough boxes with. Good day!

Hey brother--

I don't understand. Wouldn't putting it on wood lead to the bottom getting dry? Wouldn't this cause problems-- making the dough flaky instead of soft and supple?

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2654 on: August 03, 2014, 04:22:03 AM »
Omid, are the Ciao non DOP tomato product available to the public...where can I purchase?  Thank you.

.

Dear Bob, I do not know whether or not the non-DOP tomatoes by Ciao are available to the public. So far, I have not seen them sold at any stores. A quick online search did not yield any results either. I get mine from the workplace (Pizzeria Bruno), which in turn gets them from a commercial vendor that only sells to restaurants.

I know that Mr. Fred Mortati of Orlando Food Sales, Inc. is one of the importers/distributers of Caio products. (http://orlandofoods.com/compagnia_mercantile.html) He is a member of this forum, and he has always been helpful to this forum. You may want to PM him in this regard:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2681

I already included him in the reference above. He might be the one who provides Roberto Caporuscio’s pizzerias (i.e., Keste and Don Antonio in New York and Atlanta) with the Ciao non-DOP tomatoes. Good luck!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2655 on: August 03, 2014, 04:42:19 AM »
Omid,
I once noticed the beautiful basil on one of your pizzas and guessed that you may have sprayed it with water pre-bake so I tried that and it seemed to work well.  I used an atomizer.  I don't think I ever asked you about that.  was I right?
bill

Dear Bill, I do not recall doing that, i.e., spraying basil leaves with water pre-bake. I remember that once a member advised me to keep my basils immersed in water. I tried it, but it sometimes worked and sometimes did not. What is peculiar is that sometime basils burn inside the oven and sometimes they do not, even when the bake time is relatively long and the fire raging inside the oven. It is of capricious nature. Good day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2656 on: August 03, 2014, 06:12:21 AM »
Hey brother--

I don't understand. Wouldn't putting it on wood lead to the bottom getting dry? Wouldn't this cause problems-- making the dough flaky instead of soft and supple?

Dear Pizza-Dude, so far that has not been the case according to my experiments, that the bottom of my pizzas did not get flaky, tough, rough, or crispy. I would assume that pizzaioli such as Ciro Salvo or Marco Parente would not use or recommend wooden dough boxes if they negatively impacted dough balls.

Let me share with you some further thoughts. It seems to me that while dough balls lose some moisture to the wood, the moistened wood, in turn, keeps the air or the environment inside the box humid. In other words, the wooden dough box functions, if I am not mistaken, like a wooden cigar humidor.

At the same time, it appears that the wood has a capability to regulate the temperature inside the box. If I place my poplar dough box, containing 6 dough balls, where the ambient temperature is 81 F while the temperature inside the dough box is 72 F, it would take about 5 hours for the temperature inside the box to fully catch up with the ambient temperature. This is according to an experiment I conducted a couple of days ago.

Because of wood-proofing my dough balls, I am using considerably less bench flour and nothing at all on my wooden pizza peel. I personally think that wooden dough boxes have merits, especially when one uses highly hydrated dough. Have a great day!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 06:25:04 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2657 on: August 03, 2014, 06:38:02 AM »
Here's an interesting video that Napoletana4Germany brought to my attention. Thank you Todi!

« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 06:40:19 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

scott123

  • Guest
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2658 on: August 03, 2014, 06:39:12 AM »
Omid, do you think the moisture being drawn into the wood is localized to the exterior of the dough, or do you think it's pulling moisture through the whole mass?

In other words, do you think it's possible, using wood, to create a higher hydration dough ball that's relatively slack at the core, but relatively dry on the outside?

Let me share with you some further thoughts. It seems to me that while dough balls lose some moisture to the wood, the moistened wood, in turn, keeps the air or the environment inside the box humid. In other words, the wooden dough box functions, if I am not mistaken, like a wooden cigar humidor.

But a wood box will keep less moisture in the environment than plastic. Forgive me if I missed something, but have you compared wood and plastic proofing doughs baked top side down? We're getting a good sense of how much moisture the bottom of the box is drawing from the dough, but I'd like to get a better sense of how much moisture is being drawn from the top of the dough- in comparison to the moisture in a plastic environment.

Taking this a step even further, if the top and side wood is drawing a little moisture from the air inside the box, and thus drawing some water from the dough, but not as an appreciable amount of the moisture being wicked away from the bottom, I'd be curious to see if a different, more drying species of wood could be used for the top of the box to make the difference less appreciable and thus end up with a dough ball with an exterior that's consistently drier on all sides- ie using two different types of wood in the same box.


Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 707
  • Location: Belgium
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2659 on: August 03, 2014, 06:52:15 AM »

In other words, do you think it's possible, using wood, to create a higher hydration dough ball that's relatively slack at the core, but relatively dry on the outside?

I think it is precisely the most appropriate use for wooden boxes: been able to work with an highly hydrated dough at the limit of the workability.

Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2660 on: August 03, 2014, 10:06:39 AM »
 ^^^ bingo!

Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2661 on: August 03, 2014, 07:32:05 PM »
this is the bottom of a doughball that was fermented in wood for about 6 hours after bulk ferment for 24 hours.  the hydration is 65%.  as Omid mentioned, you just don't have to use much bench flour at all, which is way different than with plastic.
bill

Offline stonecutter

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: NY
    • Old World Stone & Garden
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2662 on: August 03, 2014, 07:34:43 PM »
That's a pine box right wheelman?
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15890
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2663 on: August 03, 2014, 07:49:14 PM »
this is the bottom of a doughball that was fermented in wood for about 6 hours after bulk ferment for 24 hours.  the hydration is 65%.  as Omid mentioned, you just don't have to use much bench flour at all, which is way different than with plastic.
bill

It looks like you rabbeted  the edges to make it stackable and have a fitted lid? Nice.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline stonecutter

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: NY
    • Old World Stone & Garden
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2664 on: August 03, 2014, 07:54:32 PM »
It looks like you rabbeted  the edges to make it stackable and have a fitted lid? Nice.

It looks more like a doubled up board than a rabbet joint.  Either way, it's a smart design.
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2665 on: August 04, 2014, 12:54:18 PM »
those boxes are poplar.  i've been experimenting with a new dovetail jig.  my next set of boxes will be better.  i made a set of 3 that stack with one top. 

Offline stonecutter

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 964
  • Location: NY
    • Old World Stone & Garden
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2666 on: August 04, 2014, 01:34:07 PM »
That looks sweet, great joinery!
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin


Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2667 on: August 04, 2014, 01:49:08 PM »
thanks!

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3761
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2668 on: August 05, 2014, 11:06:38 PM »
Time is on your side Bill ! ;D
I have a beautiful Sjoberg work bench,  tools, routers... that have not seen the light of day in 3 years !!!

Omid Yes I believe Fred supplies Ciao to Roberto
those are the exact tomatoes I use too ! ( from fred) Orlando foods !
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline gsans

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 225
  • Location: FRANCE
  • Just Neapolitan !
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2669 on: August 17, 2014, 05:34:58 AM »
Dear Omid,

Look at this video : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=806148959411207

Very very amazing....

Offline dylandylan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 990
  • Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2670 on: August 17, 2014, 02:51:11 PM »
Wow, that is amazing dough handling.   

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2671 on: September 19, 2014, 05:41:41 AM »
Dear Omid,

Look at this video : https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=806148959411207

Very very amazing....

Dear Gsans, thank you for the interesting video. That looks like some kind of Pakistani or Indian flatbread. Maybe a roti?

Regards,
Omid 
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline gsans

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 225
  • Location: FRANCE
  • Just Neapolitan !
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2672 on: September 19, 2014, 06:02:10 AM »
Dear Gsans, thank you for the interesting video. That looks like some kind of Pakistani or Indian flatbread. Maybe a roti?

Regards,
Omid

dear Omid,

I think it's Roomali Roti, look :

 

Or big chapati :



Have a nice day.

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 707
  • Location: Belgium
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2673 on: October 15, 2014, 03:39:41 AM »
Hi Omid,

Here's an interesting article about Da michele with lovely pictures: Campionato della Pizza. Da Michele, la pizzeria mito che si ama o si odia




Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #2674 on: October 15, 2014, 07:02:13 PM »
Hi Omid,

Here's an interesting article about Da michele with lovely pictures: Campionato della Pizza. Da Michele, la pizzeria mito che si ama o si odia

Dear Sub, I thank you very much for the interesting Da Michele link. The first time I tried Da Michele pizza was 30 years ago. Da Michele pizza was indeed my very first introduction to Neapolitan pizza when my uncle took me there upon my arrival in Naples in 1984. As such, it has not only served me as a source of inspiration, but also it has acquired a sentimental value, reminiscent of the year I spent in Naples as a young boy without any cares in the world. Those were good old days.

The year 1984 was coincidental with the establishment of Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana (AVPN), whereby the association stipulated its rules for, as they put it, the "true Neapolitan pizza". Yet, as you are aware and as partially reflected in the above-referenced article you posted, Da Michele seems to hardly adhere to the AVPN rules. If I am not mistaken, the pizzeria uses:

1. Non-D.O.P. San Marzano tomatoes (some even claim non-San Marzano tomatoes);
2. No buffalo mozzarella, but fresh cow mozzarella from Agerola;
3. Seed oil (i.e., "sunflower oil" according to the menus attached on the walls) instead of olive oil;
4. Reportedly "old dough"; and
5. Dough balls which sometimes or oftentimes reach 300 grams (or more) each.

As the article puts it, people either hate or love the Da Michele pizzas. Some of my friends who have visited Da Michele thought of the pizzas as substandard while the rest thought of them as exemplary. No doubts, the quality of Da Michele pizzas is sometimes diminished; nonetheless, the pizzeria, for me, is reminiscent and a tangible representation of the past when both pizzerias and the pizzas they produced were simple, modest, straightforward, and no-frills. In my opinion, Pericles’ (495–429 BC) statement can eloquently characterize Da Michele philosophy: "We are lovers of beauty, yet simple in our tastes. . . ."

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 07:56:35 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/