A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!

[dellavecchia]

I would also agree that many of us have already been effectively hydrating our dough for some time now by doing an extended fermentation.   As you mentioned, this gives time for the enzymes to do their job, making the dough more fluid, extensible, etc.  We just weren't calling it that per se. 

Whether using a long (modified) autolyse or an overall long fermentation, the end result is the same.  That is we can effectively lower the hydration and achieve a similar working higher hydrated dough.

Exactly Chau. Suas says that the presence of salt and yeast can inhibit the autolyse process, but when your fermentation hours extends into the teens and twenties I fully believe it is achieving the same result. It would be interesting to hear Tom Lehmann's thoughts on this.

John

[dellavecchia]

Let me take it one step further & break it down as it relates to the traditional Italian way using a "biga naturale".  The magic number seems to be 20% biga & 9-12 hour fermentation.

Thanks for explaining that process Matt. Really great information. Is the composition of a madre more liquid or solid? Or how does a madre differ from a standard starter?

John

[dellavecchia]

so in exploring this extended autolyse/flour hydration phase, would the starter be added before or after?  
bill  

Bill - If you are doing a modified autolyse in the breadmaking (Suas) sense, a portion of the final dough flour and water would be combined and hydrated for 8-10 hours, and then the final dough would be mixed with starter, salt and the rest of the flour and water. In Matt's description, 20% of the final dough is hydrated along with the starter. This is closer to creating a 20% levain (as in Tartine: flour, water, and one tablespoon of starter are hydrated overnight and then incorporated in the final dough). Maybe Matt can explain in further detail.

John

[Matthew]

Thanks for explaining that process Matt. Really great information. Is the composition of a madre more liquid or solid? Or how does a madre differ from a standard starter?

John

The madre is your starter & can be liquid or solid.  Generally speaking, the madre is kept in a more solid state (biga) by the italians & a more liquid state (poolish) by the french.  The difference is flavor. Italians prefer a much more mild flavor than the french.  The presence of any sourness in a biga is considered a mishandling by italian bakers, where as the french find a sour/tangy starter favorable.  

Matt

[Matthew]

Bill - If you are doing a modified autolyse in the breadmaking (Suas) sense, a portion of the final dough flour and water would be combined and hydrated for 8-10 hours, and then the final dough would be mixed with starter, salt and yeast. In Matt's description, 20% of the final dough is hydrated along with the starter. This is closer to creating a 20% levain (as in Tartine: flour, water, and one tablespoon of starter are hydrated overnight and then incorporated in the final dough). Maybe Matt can explain in further detail.

John

Right on John.  The method I described is in fact by definition a levain:  interchangeable with an italian "biga naturale"

Matt

[wheelman]

thanks for explaining this Matt and John.  The Biga Naturale sounds a lot like TxCraig's UPN formula preferment.  Unless you're talking about the biga containing all of the water for the whole dough?
bill

[Matthew]

thanks for explaining this Matt and John.  The Biga Naturale sounds a lot like TxCraig's UPN formula preferment.  Unless you're talking about the biga containing all of the water for the whole dough?
bill

Hi Bill,
Similar, but not the same.  Craig's formula encompasses a pate fermentee as a replacement for old dough.  The big difference between the two is that pate fermentee/old dough contains salt & as a result has a lifespan of 48 hours at most if refrigerated.

Matt

[scott r]

Exactly Chau. Suas says that the presence of salt and yeast can inhibit the autolyse process, but when your fermentation hours extends into the teens and twenties I fully believe it is achieving the same result. It would be interesting to hear Tom Lehmann's thoughts on this.

John, I definitely agree.   im no tom lehmann, but the dough I most often use is a 20 hour room temp, or 1 week in the fridge fermentation using tiny amounts of yeast.   I have done a bunch of tests over the years using a 20min-2hour autolyse with the salt and yeast, or without the salt and yeast, and for these very low yeast doughs I can't tell any difference between the two.  

P.S I know someone who paid Tom to do a consult, and at least back then he wasn't recommending the use of an autolyse.  

[pizzablogger]

The madre is your starter & can be liquid or solid.  Generally speaking, the madre is kept in a more solid state (biga) by the italians & a more liquid state (poolish) by the french.  The difference is flavor. Italians prefer a much more mild flavor than the french.  The presence of any sourness in a biga is considered a mishandling by italian bakers, where as the french find a sour/tangy starter favorable.  

Matt

Matt, the fact that a biga and poolish differ in consistency is not the sole reason they differ in taste. In fact, if we were to just consider the consistency, and nothing else, one might reasonably expect the more sour note to be delivered by the thicker consistency of the biga.

[TXCraig1]

Hi Bill,
Similar, but not the same.  Craig's formula encompasses a pate fermentee as a replacement for old dough.  The big difference between the two is that pate fermentee/old dough contains salt & as a result has a lifespan of 48 hours at most if refrigerated.

Matt

The non-old dough version called for 0.1% salt in the preferment to control the enzyme activity. I think if I was to work more on this, I would cut out the salt and shorten the preferment time to somewhere in a 12-18 hour range.

CL

[dellavecchia]

John, I definitely agree.   im no tom lehmann, but the dough I most often use is a 20 hour room temp, or 1 week in the fridge fermentation using tiny amounts of yeast.   I have done a bunch of tests over the years using a 20min-2hour autolyse with the salt and yeast, or without the salt and yeast, and for these very low yeast doughs I can't tell any difference between the two.  

P.S I know someone who paid Tom to do a consult, and at least back then he wasn't recommending the use of an autolyse.  

Thanks for the confirmation Scott. You are just as highly regarded in my book as Tom!

John

[Matthew]

Matt, the fact that a biga and poolish differ in consistency is not the sole reason they differ in taste. In fact, if we were to just consider the consistency, and nothing else, one might reasonably expect the more sour note to be delivered by the thicker consistency of the biga.

K,
My reference was specific to a biga naturale & not a biga made with yeast.  The Italians refresh the biga naturale by retaining very little & feeding it triple amounts of combined water & flour.  Again, the idea is to keep the madre extremely mild so there is zero sourness in the finished dough.

Matt

[wheelman]

The non-old dough version called for 0.1% salt in the preferment to control the enzyme activity. I think if I was to work more on this, I would cut out the salt and shorten the preferment time to somewhere in a 12-18 hour range.

CL

I always wondered what that pinch of salt was for!
I really appreciate you guys.  I have no background in baking, everything i know i've learned here. 
bill

[JConk007]

My head is spinning! I still do it the old fashion way 20 min autolyse 75% of flour no yeast. I feel like I am really missing out on something after pouring over this info, but its beyond me how to even start, or where I could find the time to refresh, keep alive, measure, time, all these things on a consistent basis for the larger scale 50+ dough balls. This knowledge  would also contribute to the true Pizzaiolo I got a long way to go ! But I got a lot of time too! and I am not one to give up. I just hope someday to comprehend the starter, biga, poolish, patte natural, preferment, levain....
Thanks for all the explanations. WOW details are so cool 
John

[Jackie Tran]

Maybe it's just my lack of knowledge or my preference towards simplicity , but I often see a trend towards overcomplicating things.  Mix all ingredients together, let it sit for a long time, then knead and proceed as usual.

Kelly, given 2 of the same starters, one with a low(er) hydration, I would presume that the higher hydrated one would ferment faster and therefore produce more byproducts (flavor).  Correct or not?

Chau

[ninapizza23]

CT,
the more you complicate things the more you frustrate yourself. KISS is the way to go.  I have perfect hydration, fermentation, color and longevity.  Do Not stress the dough or your mind. ENJOY!

[Pizza Napoletana]

Ladies and gentlemen, with all due respect, the water is getting muddy! If I were you, I would strive for simplicity. (Yet, who knows? Perchance what you are doing may yield greater results, however complicated.) I would keep everything as simple as possible. (“We are lovers of beauty, but simple in our tastes.”) “Ockham’s razor”, a principle of simplicity, can definitely be applied to the situation at hand. According to the scholastic philosopher William of Ockham, Entita non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitate: “Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity” or “The number of entities used to explain phenomena should not be increased unnecessarily”. In other words, of two or more possible explanations for a phenomenon, choose the one that explains what is to be explained with the fewest assumptions and explanatory principles. And, of course, as the great Aristotle stated, this is a rational (ratio, proportion) process. I think it is fair to posit that an underlying principle of Italian cuisine in general is simplicity.

Since here we are concerned with causation in transforming or changing the flour, Aristotle’s “four causes” may be of assistance here. Aristotle was of the belief that to understand a natural phenomenon, one should determine the four following causes thereof:

1. “Material Cause” (change produced out of which or what),
2. “Formal Cause” (change produced into which),
3. “Efficient Cause” (change produced by which), and
4. “Final Cause” (change produced for the sake of which)

If we walk on a beach and see footprints (the formal cause), we can legitimately infer that a human being (the efficient cause) must have walked there before we did. Because of past experience, we might even be able to tell the person's weight by examining the size and depth of the footprints.

Tonight, around 7:30 PM (Pacific time), I finished making a mass of dough that is hydrated at 48%!!! (I am pushing the limit to see how low I can go.) To get the hydration level as accurate as possible, I refrained from using liquid culture. Instead, I used precisely 0.20 grams of fresh yeast. We shall see the results tomorrow around this time. Good night everyone!

[Jackie Tran]

Omid, the water is never too muddy.  Healthy discussion brings about ideas, inspiration, and learning.  So all exchange no matter how complicated is good exchange.  I have time, curiosity, and flour so I will drop the hydration to 55% (my lowest and 8 pts down from my previous) and see what happens.  I will also be using a not so fresh CY, so it should balance out nicely.  I will report back tomorrow.

CT,
the more you complicate things the more you frustrate yourself. KISS is the way to go.  I have perfect hydration, fermentation, color and longevity.  Do Not stress the dough or your mind. ENJOY!

Nina, that is the point I am making.  There is no "perfect" hydration, only balanced hydration.  Whether you prefer high or low, you still need to balance it with the multitude of other factors to bring about optimal results.

Chau

[Jet_deck]

4. “Final Cause” (change produced for the sake of which)

Can I order a final cause with pineapple?  No, seriously keep the dialogue coming I enjoy this discussion.

[dellavecchia]

Understanding the processes behind dough and fermentation to make informed decisions about workflow does not diminish the simplicity of the four ingredients we are discussing here, nor the simplicity of the process. Chau summed it up beautifully. There is not one way to make dough, nor is there a perfect dough. I would like to see what perfection looks like from those who claim ownership. As is applies to neapolitan pizza, the preferred workflows of experienced bakers is the starting point. We just happen to know and understand that starting point enough, which is classic breadmaking, to make our own decisions.

John