Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 181684 times)

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Online BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #860 on: November 16, 2011, 04:28:34 PM »
Maybe it's just me but when he's pulling the dough balls out of the box the way they are sticking to each other makes it look really wet. Our elevations are different too so that plays into it also, Houston is at 45ft, Boston is at 2500ft. But London's elevation is closer to yours so maybe you're right. Also he doesn't really have to do many slaps to open the ball(couple spins and 1 slap and its open) but that can also be because of how well made/developed the dough is.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #861 on: November 16, 2011, 04:42:47 PM »
Boston, MA is 2500ft. Are you sure about that?

Actually, I live at 21ft. I'm still waiting for the global warming Al Gore keeps promising. He says the sea level will go up 20ft. That will put my house on the beach!  :-D

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #862 on: November 16, 2011, 04:43:03 PM »
I didn't realize how serious I was. . . .

Matt


Is the hand gesture you refer to used to 'hold' the pizza from being taken by placing his hand flat on the peel for a moment?


Dear Tman:

In Naples, in my experience, it is not an uncommon phenomenon to see pizzaioli utilizing hand gestures or body-language as a mode of silent communication. Some of these signals can be subtle, hard to be detected by onlookers. I clearly remember when I was at Degli Angioini (pizzeria e osteria) in Naples, the pizzaiolo and fornaio communicated with one another mostly via eye contacts, head nods, and hand signals during the rush time—as though they were in a state of trance. They were!

Moreover, it is not rare for Neapolitan pizzaioli to put on a solemn face, behaving themselves with a spirit of seriousness. The Franco Manca pizzaiolo in the last video of my previous post above (
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26rDbDvOGj4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26rDbDvOGj4</a>
) can perchance serve as an example: no smily and jolly face! Perhaps, the speechless communication and the aura of impassioned intensity are parts of the mystique of the Neapolitan tradition, as they are in the flamenco tradition:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFqQDkXBZrM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFqQDkXBZrM</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vwJvYHs52c" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vwJvYHs52c</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoA2xvBS_9c" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoA2xvBS_9c</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrWJ2RLB5U" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrWJ2RLB5U</a>


Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 03:38:39 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline pizza dr

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #863 on: November 16, 2011, 04:59:49 PM »
The omnipotent and all knowing entity that is GOOGLE states that Boston MA is at about 140 ft.  That seems about right I guess  8)

That being said... what changes do you guys suppose we folks at higher elevation need to consider????  I'm at about 4000, Chau is at about 5000 and Bill in SF is at about 7000 but could easily be at 8000 depending on where he lives.

Curious to know what specifically you would want to be aware of at higher elevation.  One thing I've noticed ( not sure this is related to elevation or not) is that I typically need to up my hydration a few clicks to get the same looking dough that I see on these threads.  We are pretty dry here most of the year. 

Scot


Online BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #864 on: November 16, 2011, 06:54:47 PM »
Boston, MA is 2500ft. Are you sure about that?

Actually, I live at 21ft. I'm still waiting for the global warming Al Gore keeps promising. He says the sea level will go up 20ft. That will put my house on the beach!  :-D

CL
Lol sorry idk where I got that from. It says 19ft on wiki.

The omnipotent and all knowing entity that is GOOGLE states that Boston MA is at about 140 ft.  That seems about right I guess  8)

That being said... what changes do you guys suppose we folks at higher elevation need to consider????  I'm at about 4000, Chau is at about 5000 and Bill in SF is at about 7000 but could easily be at 8000 depending on where he lives.

Curious to know what specifically you would want to be aware of at higher elevation.  One thing I've noticed ( not sure this is related to elevation or not) is that I typically need to up my hydration a few clicks to get the same looking dough that I see on these threads.  We are pretty dry here most of the year. 

Scot



That's why I think the dough is little more hydrated than most neapolitan dough made commercially. I'll look at dough on here sometimes and it's like 66%+ and look like dough at 60% here. Then I think if I made a 66%+ dough here (unless its for pizza in teglio) it would be really unmanageable.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:27:47 PM by BrickStoneOven »

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #865 on: November 16, 2011, 07:28:13 PM »
I fly into Boston all the time. I am pretty sure the airport is at 19 feet in Boston.  If it was at 2500 feet my flights could get pretty dicey!

Scott D.

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #866 on: November 16, 2011, 10:43:17 PM »
I have good news for the Santos enthusiats! . . .

Recently, I sent a message to the Santos representative (Mr. Nicolas Fouquet) in France, asking him, "Are your engineers still working on reducing the fork speed of 'Santos Fork Mixer'?" Today, he replied:  

"We will try and beat Master Omid with a perfect solution... can't say no more..."
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:04:17 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #867 on: November 17, 2011, 03:14:26 AM »
Omid, I agree, the mood, the feeling behind the art of pizza.... it is a crescendo just like the art, the  feeling of flamenco, and it's many compases.... temperamental (dough, environment) Ole!  As to the Santos, thanks for your diligence!!  Saludos! 

Offline napoletana4germany

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #868 on: November 17, 2011, 05:28:44 AM »
Hi,

they use lievito di birra fresco or fresh brewer yeast, as they call it, which is just fresh commercial yeast.

The article you have posted clearly demonstrated that they "play" with the understanding of the general public, as he basically says: "we still make the dough using "Crisceto", I mean making the dough the day before service", wihch is not like  using a natural culture.. However one of the things I explored in the work for my unpublished book, with the help of a researcher at the University of Naples, is how the dough made in certain pizzeria differes from others, in small but very important details.


hello everyone,

I try to summarize what Marco Parente (pizzanapoletana) just said
concerning the main possibilities of fermenting dough

pure fermentation:
1: pure sourdough starter (aka Crisceto)
2: pure baker's yeast

pure fermentation with old dough support:
3: sourdough with support of old dough (dough balls of "the day before service")
4: baker's yeast with support of old dough

mixed fermentation:
5: "half" sourdough / "half" baker's yeast
6: mainly sourdough with support of baker's yeast
7: mainly baker's yeast with support of sourdough (if useful at all?!)

these kind of basic doughs can be made/fermented:
- with or without using poolish, biga or autolyse
- in the fridge or under room temperature
- with a briefer or longer fermentation
depending on the amount of ferment and the temperatures in the fridge or you work environment.

I hope I'll get it right...  8)
what do you (guys) think about this classification?
are these the main ways of fermenting pizza dough or was something important omitted?

what I am very curious about is how Franco Manca is fermenting pure sourdough in London, nothern Central Europe.
(Jeff Varasano wrote on his blog he ferments sourdough in the fridge. I tried several times in the past, it never really worked.)
is it generally possible to ferment natural sourdough under low temperatures like 6°C / 43°F ?!?
if you don't mind my asking - Marco - I really like to know if you use something like room* tempered fermenting chambers?
* 23°C (about 73.4 °F)

best regards,
Todi

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #869 on: November 17, 2011, 04:56:23 PM »
Below are a couple of interesting videos showing pizzaiolo Gaetano Fazio at work in his pizzeria in Ischia. He was, perhaps still is, one of the instructors at Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana in Naples. A couple of Americans who had taken instructions from him described him to me as a "nurturing" and "humble" human being, besides being an adept pizzaiolo. Watch his hands!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q3-gVr9gBQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q3-gVr9gBQ</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFVBXR5KgAQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFVBXR5KgAQ</a>
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #870 on: November 17, 2011, 05:14:02 PM »
Omid - I just love the videos you have been posting. The Gaetano Fazio ones are particularly interesting due to seeing long stretches of workflow and skin management. I also really got a good sense of the calzone technique, which was very enlightening.

It seems nearly every pizzeria in Naples uses grated cheese. Funny, I have never used it. Are they using percorino romano, or some other cheese specific to the region?

John

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #871 on: November 17, 2011, 09:04:36 PM »
Omid - I just love the videos you have been posting. The Gaetano Fazio ones are particularly interesting due to seeing long stretches of workflow and skin management. I also really got a good sense of the calzone technique, which was very enlightening. It seems nearly every pizzeria in Naples uses grated cheese. Funny, I have never used it. Are they using percorino romano, or some other cheese specific to the region?

John

Dear John, I do not know what type of pecorino or else they use. I asked my wife to check out the pizzeria if possible. We shall see! Good night.
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #872 on: November 17, 2011, 09:05:13 PM »
Today, my wife informed me about controversial debates that have been taking place on the Italian TV about the use of "lievito madre" and "lievito di birra" in making pizza. (Her friend, who majors in Italian language, translated the debate for her.) I did some research on the net and found out for myself that indeed some interesting pizza developments seem to be taking place in Naples and other Italian cities. Back in May of this year, a seminar under the title "Pizza di oggi, gusto di ieri" ("Pizza today, a taste of yesterday") was held at the Università della Pizza a Napoli to discuss a number of important issues in respect to the past and future of Neapolitan pizza. According to an article by "Campania Su Web":

"A seminar was held in Naples by 'Pizza Up', enlivening the occasion by a fascinating comparison between Gino Sorbillo and Renato Bosco, the 'old and new' pizza. During the seminar, it was asked if the pizza can return to have the tastes and scents of the past, that its future may be a return to basics, and if the technique of the lievito madre can contribute to this goal. The discussion included Enzo Coccia and Massimo Di Porzio, who considered a number of technical reasons that prevent Neapolitan pizza to go back to using lievito madre. However, part of the tradition known as 'Criscito', as pointed out by professor Antonio Mattozzi, explains the practical reasons which led to abandoning it." (Google Translate was used to translate and abridge the article.)

You can check out the entire article and parts of the debate captured on video at the following links:

• Article: http://www.campaniasuweb.it/story/pizza-di-oggi-gusto-di-ieri
• Video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdAWcUEqNqg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdAWcUEqNqg</a>
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:55:13 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #873 on: November 17, 2011, 09:55:47 PM »
Omid,

Thank you so much.  The videos are fantastic... Signor Fazio has such a gentle caress.  It is interesting comparing his technique with that of Gino Sorbillo.  Different demeanor, different attitude.  Whereas Gino Sorbillo seems to "attack" the dough, forcing it to do his will, Gaetano Fazio appears more to "ask" the dough to do what he wants!  I don't think either is better than the other, simply different.  They are both great to watch. 

Grazie,
Salvatore

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #874 on: November 17, 2011, 09:57:08 PM »
Thank you for the article as well... great practice for my Italian right before trip next week!

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #875 on: November 17, 2011, 10:55:42 PM »
thanks for posting Omid. great videos.Yes he looks so calm ,cool and gentle!
I found a shot from this summer of me with my In the Zone - Game face on  :chef:
kinda serious right? This  was me as a rookie against 65 hungry faces at my tennis/platform club
John
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Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #876 on: November 17, 2011, 11:45:52 PM »
John,

Love the shorts!  While I don't know if that's allowed in Napoli, your face displays all the seriousness of a seasoned professional.  Way to go!

Salvatore

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #877 on: November 18, 2011, 02:25:35 AM »
Thank you for the article as well... great practice for my Italian right before trip next week!


thanks for posting Omid. great videos.Yes he looks so calm ,cool and gentle! I found a shot from this summer of me with my In the Zone - Game face on kinda serious right? This  was me as a rookie against 65 hungry faces at my tennis/platform club
John


You are all welcome!
Dear Salvatore, I am excited for you that soon you will be in Naples. Maybe you can meet Mr. Fazio in person. His address and telephone number are:

Via M.Mazzella 33, Ischia, Ischia, Italy
+39 081 991807

Earlier I was reading some reviews on his pizzeria. One reviewer wrote: "Gaetano came to our table several times to talk to us and we felt like we knew him since always." Another reviewer wrote: "We had a party of 8 twice and each time the food was great. The next day he took 1 of us in his car to get snacks for a hotel party." (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g580214-d1137047-Reviews-Ristorante_Pizzeria_Da_Gaetano-Ischia_Ischia_Campania.html)

Dear Larry, "65 hungry faces" . . . at your home . . . my goodness!

Good night gentlemen.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:57:20 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #878 on: November 18, 2011, 04:40:57 AM »
Two days ago, I prepared Santos dough using the same recipe and methodology as in Reply #824 above, with the exception that this time I used fresh yeast instead of sourdough culture. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159455.html#msg159455)
________________________________________
Flour: 1000 gr. Caputo Pizzeria (Datum Point)
Water: 670 gr. (67%)
Sea Salt: 30 gr. (3%)
Fresh Yeast: 1.20 gr. (0.12%)
________________________________________
Direct Method: Water (68.9° F) ➡ Salt (69.1° F) ➡ Fresh Yeast (N/A) ➡ Flour (66.4° F) = Pasta (72.6° F)

Mix Time: 2 minutes
Knead Time: 5 minutes

☞ No interruption between mixing & kneading, and both mixing and kneading were continuous within themselves.  
________________________________________
1st Fermentation (in mass): 2 hours at room temperature 73 - 70° F
2nd Fermentation (in balls): (25 hours in the marble chamber at 55 - 64° F)
Final Dough Ball Temperature Before Baking: 64° F
________________________________________
Modified Home Gas Oven Temperatures: Floor = 832° F & Ceiling = 871° F
________________________________________

Last night I made pizzas with the dough balls. As I had predicted, the pizza crusts did not feel as tender as the one in reply #824.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:59:25 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #879 on: November 18, 2011, 04:42:07 AM »
Continued . . .
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/