Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 456085 times)

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Offline selprop

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2011, 05:52:21 PM »
Matt,
I do not want to answer for Omid, but
I also believe your are right with the 53% hydration,,
Mark


Offline andreguidon

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2011, 06:16:26 PM »
I believe it means curious about this,



I know what it means, i am curious about what does this relative hydration that Omid talks about....
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Offline selprop

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2011, 06:20:48 PM »
apologize
I read your line which was folllowed by a ??
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 01:05:32 AM by selprop »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 02:17:25 AM »
I would also be interested in understanding what you refer to as "effective hydration".

I think your interest is very fundamental (fundāre, "to lay the foundation"). Thank you! But, first, please excuse my peculiar way of approaching this subject, and I hope I am knowledgeable enough to address your concern. (Sometimes, I can not find rational explanations for what I do!) According to Aristotle, Thales of Miletus (the father of Western philosophy) regarded water “as the first principle [or ‘material cause’] of all things.” Modern scholars argue that since pre-classical Greek language lacked the power of abstractive conceptualization, Thales could have meant “fluidity” (derived from fluere, “to flow” or “to smooth”) by water. And, that is precisely my point: fluidity, making the flour fluid enough in order to be materially causative or creative. The master of those who know, Aristotle (who also had examined the nature of flour and bread!), wrote:

“Since that [e.g., flour] which is capable is capable of something and at some time and in some way . . . and since some things can work according to a rational formula and their potentialities involve a formula, while other things are non-rational and their potentialities are non-rational, and the former potentialities must be in a living thing, while the latter can be both in the living and in the lifeless; as regards potentialities of the latter kind, when the agent and the patient meet in the way appropriate to the potentiality in question, the one must act and the other be acted on, but with the former kind this in not necessary.” (The italics, not the words, are added for your attention.)

The floured wheat endosperm is solid, not fluid. And, it has certain regulatory resistance to hydration, which, if I am not mistaken, flour scientists often refer to as “kinetics of water transport” or “hydration dynamics of endosperm”. This resistance barrier can be overcome “at some time and in some way”, which calls for a “methodology” or “methodic handling” that the Romans, and Persians, of antiquity were good at, without resorting to all the fanciful conceptualizations above and hereafter. (If the Western civilization had effectuated a synthesis of "art" and "capitalism", such methods would not have been forgotten today!) As I wrote in my article above, a way is to get the flour’s own natural enzymes “to adequately turn the starch content of flour into sugar and to reconfigure the protein content of flour into gluten—after mixing, but prior to kneading—in order to minimize dough oxidation, which causes the dough to be less “extensible” (as distinct from being “elastic”), bleached in color, deficient in flavor, and hard in texture. By analogy, if your hair is not wet enough, shampooing your hair would not be effective. First, adequately (quantity) and effectively (quality) hydrate your hair, and then shampoo! Adequately (indicative of “quantity”) and effectively (indicative of “quality” or “how”) hydrating flour will beget dough of superior extensibility, flavor, sourness, texture, and aroma.”

Let me insert another allegorical example: If a Ferrari's engine is not properly oiled, then driving it will be rough and will damage the engine. However, if the Ferrari's engine is properly oiled, then driving it will be smooth.

So, there are two distinct, but not separate, factors: quantity of hydration and quality (or how) of hydration. I invite your attention to the photo below. The pizza in the picture baked for about 3 minutes, at about 700-800 degree in a $99 modified Sears home gas oven. The raw dough of the pizza contained 49% hydration, which is quantitatively low! Yet, the puff (and the relative soft texture of the crust, which you can’t feel) betrays the 49% percent hydration. Why? Because of effective hydration—the way (not exclusive of time) the flour was animated before it was acted on. May Nettuno be with you!
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2011, 02:38:56 AM »
Is your ideal hydration 53%?

My ideal hydration—depending on humidity, overall temperature, type of flour and oven, and method of hydration—would fall somewhere between 55% and 60%.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2011, 06:46:22 AM »
Interesting explanation.

Matt
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 07:49:10 PM by Matthew »

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 07:12:38 AM »
Poetically written Omid.  I normally use a high hydration of 68% for caputo 00, but was able to drop it 5% by effectively hydrating the dough.  The dough was a bit more fluid than my normal 68%.  Too soon for me to say it made an improvement but I was glad to have a new technique and perspective from this, so thank you.

For those curious, I gave the dough a l...o...n...g rest (8h) before kneading it.  Not sure how this compares to what Omid does, but I did note the difference.

I posted the pie here at reply #221
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11654.msg144964.html#msg144964

Chau
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 10:15:10 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 11:57:12 AM »
Omid, I also subscribe to a "quality of hydration", or effective hydration. One of the reasons I always employ an autolyse for my pizzas, which are inspired by Neapolitan pizza (but not Neapolitan-style).

With regards to the pizza pictured above, the puff of the cornicione is not solely due to the quality of hydration. The heat plays a major role and at the 700-800°F temperatures you cooked at, you're likely to get lift in the cornicione. High heat brings a lot of forgiveness to the table when cooking pies. Even pies roughly rolled out with a rolling pin can experience oven spring in high heat.

But spring alone is only one part of the equation. Good spring won't alleviate a poorly mixed, fermented, proofed, mishandled and/or etc dough...among other things, oven kick just more clearly reveals the truth of what is already there. --K
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 05:07:41 PM »
Even pies roughly rolled out with a rolling pin can experience oven spring in high heat.



Even at 49% hydration ?
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Offline jjdec05

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 07:39:31 PM »
Can't believe how long it took me to read, but a beautifully written insightful post.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 09:16:26 PM »
Even at 49% hydration ?

That's a good question. I've seen a 56 rolled out and get kick in a hot oven, but 49% is another matter entirely.

Good point.
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2011, 07:10:19 AM »

For those curious, I gave the dough a l...o...n...g rest (8h) before kneading it.  Not sure how this compares to what Omid does, but I did note the difference.

Chau

Chau - What you have partially done is a modified autolyse that involves taking a portion of the dough (ie, in Omid's description - some of the water and some of the flour) and letting it hydrate for 8-10 hours. Then the dough is made as normal. It is described on page 59 of Suas. The protease in the flour is given time to break down some of the gluten bonds for more extensibility in the final product.

I have been meaning to respond to this thread. Omid's passionate treatise describes bread making nearly exactly the way alot of us here on the board have been doing for quite some time. I believe Kelly pointed out "effective hydration" is just another phrase for autolyse. I have never done the extended/modified autolyse, but it seems Omid get great results with it. The extremely low hydration levels at which he is baking pies shows it may truly be an "effective" way to get good results. I am interested to try it.


Omid's methodBreadmaking description
1. [Propound!] and attune your elements, water, flour, salt, leavenGather the four ingredients
2. Mix some partiallyStart modified autolyse, or even "double hydration"
3. Hydrate the flourAutolyse
4. Add the rest and kneadAdd rest of ingredients (ex. Tartine salt/water). Mix or stretch and fold.
5. FermentBulk
6. LeavenByproduct of bulk
7. Make dough ballsForm panetti or loaves
8. More fermentation and LevitationBench rest and final proof
Don’t break your wrist, make love!Don't use a rolling pin!

John
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 07:27:30 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2011, 07:40:16 AM »
so in exploring this extended autolyse/flour hydration phase, would the starter be added before or after? 
bill   

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2011, 08:05:41 AM »
John I believe you are correct and thanks for pointing out the Saus reference.  

I would also agree that many of us have already been effectively hydrating our dough for some time now by doing an extended fermentation.   As you mentioned, this gives time for the enzymes to do their job, making the dough more fluid, extensible, etc.  We just weren't calling it that per se.  

Whether using a long (modified) autolyse or an overall long fermentation, the end result is the same.  That is we can effectively lower the hydration and achieve a dough that handles like a higher hydrated dough.

John what impresses me here is the fact that you were able to find that nugget of info in the Saus book.  ;D

I am interested to see if Omid agrees or not that effectively hydrating the dough produces the same effect that an extended fermentation does.  Though the method may vary, the result is a more fluid/extensible dough at a relatively lower hydration.

Chau
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:52:21 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2011, 08:47:06 AM »
Chau - What you have partially done is a modified autolyse that involves taking a portion of the dough (ie, in Omid's description - some of the water and some of the flour) and letting it hydrate for 8-10 hours. Then the dough is made as normal. It is described on page 59 of Suas. The protease in the flour is given time to break down some of the gluten bonds for more extensibility in the final product.

I have been meaning to respond to this thread. Omid's passionate treatise describes bread making nearly exactly the way alot of us here on the board have been doing for quite some time. I believe Kelly pointed out "effective hydration" is just another phrase for autolyse. I have never done the extended/modified autolyse, but it seems Omid get great results with it. The extremely low hydration levels at which he is baking pies shows it may truly be an "effective" way to get good results. I am interested to try it.


Omid's methodBreadmaking description
1. [Propound!] and attune your elements, water, flour, salt, leavenGather the four ingredients
2. Mix some partiallyStart modified autolyse, or even "double hydration"
3. Hydrate the flourAutolyse
4. Add the rest and kneadAdd rest of ingredients (ex. Tartine salt/water). Mix or stretch and fold.
5. FermentBulk
6. LeavenByproduct of bulk
7. Make dough ballsForm panetti or loaves
8. More fermentation and LevitationBench rest and final proof
Don’t break your wrist, make love!Don't use a rolling pin!

John

Right on John!
Let me take it one step further & break it down as it relates to the traditional Italian way using a "biga naturale".  The magic number seems to be 20% biga & 9-12 hour fermentation.

Step 1: Refresh your madre
Step 2: Create the biga naturale (madre, water, flour)
Step 3: Ferment biga naturale until doubled (8-12 hours)
Step 4: Mix the final dough
Step 5: Rest 1/2 hour
Step 6: Form panetti

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2011, 09:29:37 AM »

I would also agree that many of us have already been effectively hydrating our dough for some time now by doing an extended fermentation.   As you mentioned, this gives time for the enzymes to do their job, making the dough more fluid, extensible, etc.  We just weren't calling it that per se. 

Whether using a long (modified) autolyse or an overall long fermentation, the end result is the same.  That is we can effectively lower the hydration and achieve a similar working higher hydrated dough.

Exactly Chau. Suas says that the presence of salt and yeast can inhibit the autolyse process, but when your fermentation hours extends into the teens and twenties I fully believe it is achieving the same result. It would be interesting to hear Tom Lehmann's thoughts on this.

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2011, 09:32:25 AM »
Let me take it one step further & break it down as it relates to the traditional Italian way using a "biga naturale".  The magic number seems to be 20% biga & 9-12 hour fermentation.

Thanks for explaining that process Matt. Really great information. Is the composition of a madre more liquid or solid? Or how does a madre differ from a standard starter?

John


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2011, 09:50:47 AM »
so in exploring this extended autolyse/flour hydration phase, would the starter be added before or after?  
bill  

Bill - If you are doing a modified autolyse in the breadmaking (Suas) sense, a portion of the final dough flour and water would be combined and hydrated for 8-10 hours, and then the final dough would be mixed with starter, salt and the rest of the flour and water. In Matt's description, 20% of the final dough is hydrated along with the starter. This is closer to creating a 20% levain (as in Tartine: flour, water, and one tablespoon of starter are hydrated overnight and then incorporated in the final dough). Maybe Matt can explain in further detail.

John
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 10:00:17 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2011, 09:53:33 AM »
Thanks for explaining that process Matt. Really great information. Is the composition of a madre more liquid or solid? Or how does a madre differ from a standard starter?

John

The madre is your starter & can be liquid or solid.  Generally speaking, the madre is kept in a more solid state (biga) by the italians & a more liquid state (poolish) by the french.  The difference is flavor. Italians prefer a much more mild flavor than the french.  The presence of any sourness in a biga is considered a mishandling by italian bakers, where as the french find a sour/tangy starter favorable.  

Matt
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 09:55:52 AM by Matthew »

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2011, 09:58:37 AM »
Bill - If you are doing a modified autolyse in the breadmaking (Suas) sense, a portion of the final dough flour and water would be combined and hydrated for 8-10 hours, and then the final dough would be mixed with starter, salt and yeast. In Matt's description, 20% of the final dough is hydrated along with the starter. This is closer to creating a 20% levain (as in Tartine: flour, water, and one tablespoon of starter are hydrated overnight and then incorporated in the final dough). Maybe Matt can explain in further detail.

John

Right on John.  The method I described is in fact by definition a levain:  interchangeable with an italian "biga naturale"

Matt

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2011, 11:35:29 AM »
thanks for explaining this Matt and John.  The Biga Naturale sounds a lot like TxCraig's UPN formula preferment.  Unless you're talking about the biga containing all of the water for the whole dough?
bill

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2011, 12:04:52 PM »
thanks for explaining this Matt and John.  The Biga Naturale sounds a lot like TxCraig's UPN formula preferment.  Unless you're talking about the biga containing all of the water for the whole dough?
bill

Hi Bill,
Similar, but not the same.  Craig's formula encompasses a pate fermentee as a replacement for old dough.  The big difference between the two is that pate fermentee/old dough contains salt & as a result has a lifespan of 48 hours at most if refrigerated.

Matt

Offline scott r

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2011, 12:27:14 PM »
Exactly Chau. Suas says that the presence of salt and yeast can inhibit the autolyse process, but when your fermentation hours extends into the teens and twenties I fully believe it is achieving the same result. It would be interesting to hear Tom Lehmann's thoughts on this.


John, I definitely agree.   im no tom lehmann, but the dough I most often use is a 20 hour room temp, or 1 week in the fridge fermentation using tiny amounts of yeast.   I have done a bunch of tests over the years using a 20min-2hour autolyse with the salt and yeast, or without the salt and yeast, and for these very low yeast doughs I can't tell any difference between the two.  

P.S I know someone who paid Tom to do a consult, and at least back then he wasn't recommending the use of an autolyse.  
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 01:44:50 PM by scott r »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »
The madre is your starter & can be liquid or solid.  Generally speaking, the madre is kept in a more solid state (biga) by the italians & a more liquid state (poolish) by the french.  The difference is flavor. Italians prefer a much more mild flavor than the french.  The presence of any sourness in a biga is considered a mishandling by italian bakers, where as the french find a sour/tangy starter favorable.  

Matt

Matt, the fact that a biga and poolish differ in consistency is not the sole reason they differ in taste. In fact, if we were to just consider the consistency, and nothing else, one might reasonably expect the more sour note to be delivered by the thicker consistency of the biga.
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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2011, 02:47:09 PM »
Hi Bill,
Similar, but not the same.  Craig's formula encompasses a pate fermentee as a replacement for old dough.  The big difference between the two is that pate fermentee/old dough contains salt & as a result has a lifespan of 48 hours at most if refrigerated.

Matt

The non-old dough version called for 0.1% salt in the preferment to control the enzyme activity. I think if I was to work more on this, I would cut out the salt and shorten the preferment time to somewhere in a 12-18 hour range.

CL
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