Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 291617 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2011, 08:27:01 AM »
I would like to see what perfection looks like from those who claim ownership. As is applies to neapolitan pizza, the preferred workflows of experienced bakers is the starting point. We just happen to know and understand that starting point enough, which is classic breadmaking, to make our own decisions.

John

I couldn't agree more!  Okay......Who's first?


Offline Barry

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2011, 10:30:12 AM »
Hi Everyone,

I am loving this thread!  Could I make a suggestion for the sake of "keeping it simple" and helping us all understand the principles being put forward, by using a standard recipe that starts with, say, 1,000 millilitres (one litre) of water, and detailing each step with an explanation?

For example:

Step 1: Take 1 litre of room temperature, filtered water, and dissolve 28 grams of sea salt in it. This equates to 2.8% salinity.
Step 2: Weigh out 1,000 grams of Caputo "00" flour, and add it to the water using a sieve. This will ....
Step 3: Leave the mixture at room temperature for 14 - 18 hours.
Step 4: Add 35 grams of active starter to the mixture.
Step 5: Now slowly add more flour to the mixture until ....   The total flour used should be about 1,725 grams, which equates to a hydration of 58%.
Step 6. Etc, etc

What do you think?

Kind regards.

Barry


Offline Grimaldi

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM »
Great thread!

I do a one weekend a month market with my mobile WFO and make around 75 pounds of dough for the event. My dough begins with a sourdough starter from local wild mustang grapes (the culture is now 1 year old). I expand the starter beginning on Monday before the event, by Thursday morning I have about 20 pounds of very active starter.

The dough mixing begins on Thursday. I do everything by weight. First, I add the starter, followed by the water...I use this order so I can sorta 'rinse' the container of all the starter, followed by about 80% of the AP flour (have not been able to get 00 at a price or in the quantity I need, so far...but I've had very good results with Central Milling Organic Unbleached AP). I mix the batch for a couple of minutes and then let it autolize for about an hour. Then I knead it with the dough hook (20 quart Univex) for about 5 minutes on low, during which time I add Redmond Real Salt, then add the remaining flour and knead for a few more minutes.

I put the dough on a marble surface covered with wet/damp cloths and start on another batch of dough. When I get to the point of autolizing the next batch, I start making the dough balls from the previous batch.

I try to get the dough balls chilled down ASAP to slow down the fermentation and proofing so the dough is in good condition for both Saturday and Sunday. Since I am working outside in some very severe weather conditions (100 degree temps for several months), it is very tricky working the dough. Sometimes I don't take the dough ball out of the cold before opening them. My work table is so hot that I just place the cold dough ball on the table and it becomes almost instantly workable. The long cold fermentation/proofing along with the natural leavening makes working in adverse conditions more manageable. The oven spring is a thing of beauty. I fire the oven with oak, pecan, and mesquite and try to keep the oven floor around 700+ degrees. I usually burn 1 or 2 to a crisp because 15 or 20 seconds can be the difference between char and charcoal. Lots of distractions... people love to talk about the oven and pizza making.

I have a line of orders all day long...it is really intense. 

   

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2011, 12:43:20 PM »
Great thread!

I do a one weekend a month market with my mobile WFO and make around 75 pounds of dough for the event. My dough begins with a sourdough starter from local wild mustang grapes (the culture is now 1 year old). I expand the starter beginning on Monday before the event, by Thursday morning I have about 20 pounds of very active starter.

The dough mixing begins on Thursday. I do everything by weight. First, I add the starter, followed by the water...I use this order so I can sorta 'rinse' the container of all the starter, followed by about 80% of the AP flour (have not been able to get 00 at a price or in the quantity I need, so far...but I've had very good results with Central Milling Organic Unbleached AP). I mix the batch for a couple of minutes and then let it autolize for about an hour. Then I knead it with the dough hook (20 quart Univex) for about 5 minutes on low, during which time I add Redmond Real Salt, then add the remaining flour and knead for a few more minutes.

I put the dough on a marble surface covered with wet/damp cloths and start on another batch of dough. When I get to the point of autolizing the next batch, I start making the dough balls from the previous batch.

I try to get the dough balls chilled down ASAP to slow down the fermentation and proofing so the dough is in good condition for both Saturday and Sunday. Since I am working outside in some very severe weather conditions (100 degree temps for several months), it is very tricky working the dough. Sometimes I don't take the dough ball out of the cold before opening them. My work table is so hot that I just place the cold dough ball on the table and it becomes almost instantly workable. The long cold fermentation/proofing along with the natural leavening makes working in adverse conditions more manageable. The oven spring is a thing of beauty. I fire the oven with oak, pecan, and mesquite and try to keep the oven floor around 700+ degrees. I usually burn 1 or 2 to a crisp because 15 or 20 seconds can be the difference between char and charcoal. Lots of distractions... people love to talk about the oven and pizza making.

I have a line of orders all day long...it is really intense. 

   

That's really interesting. I'd love to see some photos of your setup and pizzas.  Where is the market you attend? 

Regards,

Tin Roof

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2011, 03:22:32 AM »
Tonight, around 7:30 PM (Pacific time), I finished making a mass of dough that is hydrated at 48%!!! (I am pushing the limit to see how low I can go.) To get the hydration level as accurate as possible, I refrained from using liquid culture. Instead, I used precisely 0.20 grams of fresh yeast. We shall see the results tomorrow around this time. Good night everyone!

Here are the results! But, first, the objective of this experiment was to examine the outcome of low—but "effective"—hydration. In this experiment, the dough was composed of the following elements:

872 gr. Caputo "Chef's Flour", tipo "00"
418 gr. Water
24 gr. Sea Salt
0.20 gr. Fresh Yeast

The hydration level was at 48%—the lowest hydration I had ever implemented. Every minuscule drop of water mattered! Moreover, the dough went through a state of fermentation/levitation for 22 hours (at controlled room temperature) before I formed her into 5 balls (see picture #1 below), each about 250 to 260 grams. The dough balls rested for 5 hours (see picture #2 below), and then they were drafted, dressed, and baked at about 652 degree Fahrenheit in my $99 modified Sears home gas oven. The pizza, as exhibited below, baked for 3 minutes and 4 seconds. The crust was surprisingly much softer and more flavorful than I had expected; it was soft enough not needing to be sliced by a slicer. Moreover, the crust did not feel burdensome to the stomach. Therefore, briefly put, effective hydration truly animates dough for generation of superior flavor and texture. After all said and done, in my opinion, dough of higher hydration produces better flavor and softer texture. Happy 4th of July everyone!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 03:56:34 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline selprop

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2011, 03:43:29 AM »
Omid,
Great looking pies,
I am off to Mona Lisa tomorrow, will let you know how I make out

Mark

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2011, 08:10:41 AM »
Omid - I wish you had 900 degrees so us woodies could see how this is all working out in the higher heat evironment. Great looking Pies!


Grimaldi,
I am a new Mobile operator as well I would also love to see ome pics of the mobile oven and set upi maybe you could put a few over in Shop talk to Not distacr from this great thread.
Thanks

John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline DannyG

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2011, 09:06:20 AM »
Here are the results! But, first, the objective of this experiment was to examine the outcome of low—but "effective"—hydration. In this experiment, the dough was composed of the following elements:

872 gr. Caputo "Chef's Flour", tipo "00"
418 gr. Water
24 gr. Sea Salt
0.20 gr. Fresh Yeast

The hydration level was at 48%—the lowest hydration I had ever implemented. Every minuscule drop of water mattered! Moreover, the dough went through a state of fermentation/levitation for 22 hours (at controlled room temperature) before I formed her into 5 balls (see picture #1 below), each about 250 to 260 grams. The dough balls rested for 5 hours (see picture #2 below), and then they were drafted, dressed, and baked at about 652 degree Fahrenheit in my $99 modified Sears home gas oven. The pizza, as exhibited below, baked for 3 minutes and 4 seconds. The crust was surprisingly much softer and more flavorful than I had expected; it was soft enough not needing to be sliced by a slicer. Moreover, the crust did not feel burdensome to the stomach. Therefore, briefly put, effective hydration truly animates dough for generation of superior flavor and texture. After all said and done, in my opinion, dough of higher hydration produces better flavor and softer texture. Happy 4th of July everyone!

Omid, would you step us through your process preceding the fermentation?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2011, 09:12:39 AM »
That's a nice looking pie Omid.  It shows your versatility with different hydrated doughs. 

I will drop the hydration to 55% (my lowest and 8 pts down from my previous) and see what happens.  I will also be using a not so fresh CY, so it should balance out nicely.  I will report back tomorrow.

Chau

So here are the results of my experiment.   I ended up making 2 doughs, one with a starter and the other with an older CY that was thawed after sitting in the freezer for ~2 months. 

The dough was mixed Thursday near midnight and the plan was to bake around 6pm (18hrs) on Friday night.  There was a change of plan for dinner and we went to a movie afterward so I could not get to the dough till near 11pm.  At 530pm though, the dough made with starter was ready as scheduled, so I had to put both doughs in the cold to slow them down.   When I got to the doughs after 10pm, the one with starter had fermented beyond what I would consider it's prime, and the one with CY was finally ready.

I also opted to bake these in my LBE to see how they would differ from a home oven bake since I had done that earlier. 

I bake the starter dough first b/c it was already risen high.  Both doughs required a bit of effort to stretch them out.  That is too say the didn't open up effortlessly.  These baked for around 2.5m in the LBE.

The starter dough was harder to open, did not puff up as high despite showing a larger starting volume, and the crumb was tougher than the CY pie.   Both of these were 208gm.

I enjoyed doing these experiments for several reasons.  First I would have never thought that I could make a decent pizza with a 55% HR using 00 and living in a desert climate.  I had always assumed that I had to make a higher hydration dough b/c of the dry air here, and I was wrong about that.  Climate does have an effect but can be overcome with a change of technique.   Also I'm getting better at balancing the dough out regardless of the flour (or flour blends), hydration, source of yeast, salt levels, etc.   It was also interesting to see how different the 00 flour handled at extreme ends of hydration 55% vs 68%.  I was able to see the effect of the lower hydration on the finish crust and crumb.  I don't have a need to go lower although I probably could.  I will likely be lowering my current hydration of 68% to about 62-63% next time I bake in the wfo. 

1st pie is the starter pie.  2nd one CY.   

Ciao

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2011, 10:26:44 AM »
 omid, those pizzas are absolutely beautiful, we eat with our eyes,mine are craving those pies. please fill in the blanks on your hydration methods,mixing methods ect.you have a bunch of information crazed pizza makers wanting as much information on pizza as we can get.
 tran, your pies are amazing as usual, did you detect flavor differences in the two methods?? what temperature did you cook your pizzas at?


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2011, 10:33:45 AM »
Thank you Chau and PN for the results they look wonderfully delicious.  PN how did you achieve the cappuccino design on the top of that margarita?  Looks like fancy artwork from Starbucks.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2011, 01:18:48 PM »
Thanks Larry and Gene.   These pies were nothing special for me.   Certainly not compared to some of my better pies.  They were more or less experimental tester pies.  

Larry, the methods were very similar for both pies, only the source of yeast was different.  I use a very mild starter so the flavor was slightly better on the starter pie, but the texture on the CY for this bake was better.  I prefer texture first, then flavor 2nd.  

Then stone temp in the LBE is 650f, and the bake time is 2m30s to 3m.

Chau
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:30:15 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2011, 01:54:34 PM »
Chau,
I'm at 62% and staying put right there. 20-30 min autolyse and a kick ass Diving arm mixer make for some wonderful dough. I  Can't wait to cook em up today all 35!  :chef:
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2011, 04:26:51 PM »
Dear DannyG and Thezaman, every quest begins with a quest-ion! In one of the posts above, I was kindly asked, “Please fill in the blanks on your hydration methods, mixing methods etc. You have a bunch of information crazed pizza makers wanting as much information on pizza as we can get.” Please, forgive me, but doing so would defeat a vital thesis of my opening post in this thread:

● “Recipes and techniques do not make pizzas; they are merely instrumental in the act of creation.”

● “In making dough, often we implement steps for which we have no explanations other than ‘that’s what everybody else does’ or ‘that’s what I have been told.’”

● “Dare to think for yourself.”

● “In learning anything, always aim to understand the underlying principles as opposed to . . . the content [or ‘information’]. . . . if you know the principles, then you can always create your own content [i.e., recipes and techniques].”

● “A recipe is only half of the story! . . . ‘The map is not the territory’.”

● “The pizzaioli, prior to World War I, respected ‘time’ and the virtues of ‘patience’ and ‘excellence’—virtues that require time and reflection in order to be cultivated.”

● “As man works on nature outside himself and changes it, he changes at the same time his own nature.”

● Most important of all, let the Socratic maxim echo through your ears, "True wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." If one assumes that she or he knows everything, then she or her is not likely to question her or his own assumptions. Question everything; take nothing for granted!


Verily, my posts are primarily about "philosophy" of pizza than making pizza, for I believe it is more important, initially, to learn the principles of making Neapolitan dough first. The word “philosophy” itself may give us a clue as to what kind of distinctive activity we are talking about here. The ancient Greek word φιλοσοφ ί α (philosophia) is linguistically composed of two words: φιλο (philo, meaning “love”, which some say is an ingredient in making pizza) and σοφία (sophia, meaning “wisdom”). Judging purely by the word itself, philosophy seems to imply a “love” that entails “wisdom” as its object, or a “love” in quest for “wisdom”. And, in turn, “wisdom” implies action, activity, or doing something, such as figuring out how to make pizza. (What would be the value of wisdom that is not actuated or is not thrown into the world?) Yet, philosophy is more than that. It is also an activity that entails critical and reflective thinking, and evaluation of the thinking—in, for example, making dough! And, in doing so we may realize that we need to learn how to make love (sophia) all over again and train our eyes for what is most distant! May St. Abate be with you!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 04:56:38 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2011, 05:22:22 PM »
omid, i had to ask , i play with recipes all of the time and that is what makes this forum fun . your main points that i am interested in are your hydration and mixing methods. it seem that you get good results with low hydration because of something you are doing to get complete hydration in your dough. i feel that your thread is really good and want to pick up as many little tips as you make available. there are a lot of good pizza makers on this forum and a lot to be learned from all of them.keep your philosophy coming thanks. larry

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2011, 05:29:24 PM »
How did you achieve the cappuccino design on the top of that margarita?  Looks like fancy artwork from Starbucks.

Dear Jet_deck, I really do not know how to answer the question, for I have never consciously thought about! The effect might be due to the chelf’s knife that I use, in addition to how I utilize it. The knife’s blade is exceedingly thin and sharp, slicing a cheese ball without tearing its fabric; hence, I hypothesize that heat radiation bounces off the surface of the cheese slices and creates that particular effect. Nonetheless, when I just crush a cheese ball, either fior di latte or mozzarella di bufala, in my clenched hand and throw it on dough disc, I get the same result. Or, the effect might be due to my oven. Or, it might be simply a matter of my temperament. I really do not know!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2011, 06:54:46 PM »
Alexandre Dumas (1802 - 1870), a French novelist and adventurer, has been instrumental in piecing together the fragmentary history of la vera pizza napoletana. He traveled to Naples in early 1800s (the pre-Margherita epoch), and wrote his experiences in a journal that has been published under the title Le Corricolo, amongst other titles. Alexandre writes,

“. . . Neapolitans are joyous because their desires do not surpass their needs. . . . What is necessary for [them] to eat? A pizza? . . . the nakedness, which we take as pain, is conversely an enjoyment in this climate dressed with the heat of the sun. . . . Pizza is food of the poor. . . . The poor usually eats two things: pizza and cocomero. . . . Cocomero during summer and pizza during winter.” (Translated by A.D.)

Ask, as many pizza historians have, “Why?” A philosopher would formulate the question in this manner: “What was the problem to which winter was a solution?”
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 07:52:13 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2011, 07:02:59 PM »
Why?
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2011, 07:22:01 PM »
In the words of our new friend Omid, my oven made love to some pizza tonight. This dough hydration is 58, but was made only 12 hours ago using a near liquid starter. Cooked at 900 for 50 seconds with a large flame lapping the dome. I may continue to lower the hydration further for the fun of it, seeing the great results Chau and Omid posted.

John

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2011, 07:28:32 PM »
john, does the lower hydration dough have the same texture as your higher hydration dough? is it tougher ,if not it seems lower hydration would be much easier to work with. i was always taught to hydrate as much as possible without compromising the gluten structure.