Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 330806 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2011, 07:39:11 PM »
john, does the lower hydration dough have the same texture as your higher hydration dough? is it tougher ,if not it seems lower hydration would be much easier to work with. i was always taught to hydrate as much as possible without compromising the gluten structure.

Larry - I would say that it is slightly less tender, but not tough. Although on the next batch I may try the Suas extended autolyse, which is along the lines of what Omid is doing here. Take 80 percent of the flour and water and combine, then let sit for 8-10 hours. Then proceed with the dough. I would assume that restaurant owners, such as yourself, would not have the time or space to "hydrate" dough in order to get a lower hydration. Keeping the hydration up seems like the better scenario. All this is just for the fun of it to prove a point, but the final outcome is the same.

John


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2011, 07:56:45 PM »
It looks like pizza philosophy is a burgeoning field:

http://www.gilttaste.com/stories/658-what-makes-a-pizza-master

Highly opinionated, not about Neapolitan pies per se, but an enjoyable read. Here's a taste:

Quote
Which all means that the reason the pizzas you make at home suck—have always sucked, will forever suck, no matter how much you paid for your oven and drop on fancy ingredients—is because you don't care enough. Because you have the commitment of a rodeo bar skank and the loyalty of a rented snake. The reason yours suck and the trendy pizzas from the new bar down the street suck and the ones you get from the nose-picking correspondence school drop-outs behind the counter at the place by your old college suck is because none of you have dedicated your life completely to one oven, eight ingredients and one result. Because you have not given up everything and sacrificed everything and spent 10,000 hours doing nothing but making pizzas.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2011, 07:58:53 PM »
In the words of our new friend Omid, my oven made love to some pizza tonight. This dough hydration is 58, but was made only 12 hours ago using a near liquid starter. Cooked at 900 for 50 seconds with a large flame lapping the dome. I may continue to lower the hydration further for the fun of it, seeing the great results Chau and Omid posted.

John

I love it when the cornicione has character and persona!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2011, 08:00:21 PM »
Keeping the hydration up seems like the better scenario. All this is just for the fun of it to prove a point, but the final outcome is the same.

John

John, I love the new look.  That crumb shot is also excellent.  For me the crumb shows how the dough was made love to and your work shows that you are a lover....of pizza.   :-D

Kidding aside, I agree with you John that there is not much a difference in general.  The differences are more dramatic to some if they so choose to see it that way.   At the extreme ends we get a bigger difference in texture.  The difference is between a slight crisp to the veneer that perhaps may keep versus one the disappears quickly or one that is not even there.   The crumb is either slightly more dry with a bit more chew vs somewhere in the middle vs a moist and then bordering wet.   It all depends on how the lover wants to make love that decides how much water he wishes to use.   ;D

Okay I apologize folks, I got a little carried away there.  Okay now it's getting too hot in here!  [goes out for a cigarette...]  JK I don't even smoke.   :-D

This is indeed a good exercise though, as adjustments to the gluten development need to be made.  This forces you to pay more attention to the dough than mixing times or protocols.   It may also require one to change up the method of mixing perhaps.  

Chau

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2011, 08:43:08 PM »

Kidding aside, I agree with you John that there is not much a difference in general.  The differences are more dramatic to some if they so choose to see it that way.   At the extreme ends we get a bigger difference in texture.  The difference is between a slight crisp to the veneer that perhaps may keep versus one the disappears quickly or one that is not even there.   The crumb is either slightly more dry with a bit more chew vs somewhere in the middle vs a moist and then bordering wet.   It all depends on how the lover wants to make love that decides how much water he wishes to use.   ;D

I agree completely Chau. It is also interesting to see hydration from Omid's point of view. Before this thread, I never really gave low hydration a second thought - it makes you understand the fundamentals in a more informed way.

Omid - Do the vessels you circled in your pictures have anything to do with fermentation and winter temperatures?

John

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2011, 10:22:35 PM »
Omid - Do the vessels you circled in your pictures have anything to do with fermentation and winter temperatures?

Dear John, yes, the vessels have to do with fermentation and winter temperatures—but also with effective hydration and summer temperatures, and more!

Notice how deep and thick they are. Also, as far as the pictures of the traditional bakery in modern day Iran goes, notice that the bakers (whom people call "shuter", which is a term of high esteem) in the picture are using the same concept, which they have inherited from their ancient predecessors. (When these shuters walk in the streets, people literally bow down to them as a sign of respect.) In the city of Tehran, where the bakery is located, the outdoor temperature goes beyond 90 degree during the entire summer, and these bakers just are not in habit of using fans or air conditioners indoor! And, the radiation from the gigantic brick oven intensifies the heat inside.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2011, 02:49:59 AM »
Here is the result of tonight's experiment. The dough composition is as follows:

872 gr. Caputo "Chef's Flour", tipo "00"
484 gr. Water (55.50%)
24 gr. Sea Salt
0.20 gr. Fresh Yeast

The hydration level is at 55.50%. (In comparison, last night's dough contained 48% hydration, i.e., 7.50% less.) The only difference between tonight's dough and last night's dough is that the dough last night contained 418 grams of water while tonight's dough contains 484 grams of water. The dough underwent fermentation/levitation for 21 hours (22 hours last night), at controlled room temperature, before I formed her into 5 balls (see picture #1 below), each about 250 to 260 grams. The dough balls rested for 3 hours (5 hours last night) (see picture #2 below), and then they were drafted, dressed, and baked at about 640 (last night about 652) degree Fahrenheit in my $99 modified Sears home gas oven. (If my friend had not complained of starvation so much, I would have let the temperature go up to 750 degree.) The pizza, as exhibited below, baked for 3 minutes and 29 seconds (last night 3 minutes and 4 seconds). The crust's flavor felt slightly lighter in terms of flavor and texture.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2011, 02:55:58 AM »
Below is last night's pizza (48% hydration) to be compared with tonight's pizza above (55.50% hydration).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 03:10:17 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2011, 06:53:49 AM »
Larry - I would say that it is slightly less tender, but not tough. Although on the next batch I may try the Suas extended autolyse, which is along the lines of what Omid is doing here. Take 80 percent of the flour and water and combine, then let sit for 8-10 hours. Then proceed with the dough. I would assume that restaurant owners, such as yourself, would not have the time or space to "hydrate" dough in order to get a lower hydration. Keeping the hydration up seems like the better scenario. All this is just for the fun of it to prove a point, but the final outcome is the same.

John

John,
First off, brilliant work!  FWIW, my hydration floats between 57-58% & have been extremely successful at that percentage.  Is the Suas method a true autolyse or modified to include yeast and/or starter?

Matt 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2011, 08:40:56 AM »
Omid, your pies look so consistent, like copies of each other.  It makes sense that the higher hydrated pies are lighter.  Have you done a 66-68% hydration slow fermented dough? At what point is the hydration too high and the crust and crumb suffers?

Also do you mind posting pictures of the crumb for me?  I like to study the crumb.

The stone ovens that you posted with the floor made from river rocks.  Are the rocks cemented down or are they loose gravel?  Also how is the ash removed and the oven cleaned?  The floor looks so clean in there.  I would imagine all the crevices in the floor are good hiding spots for ash.

Thx,
Chau
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 08:59:38 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2011, 10:09:12 AM »
Have you done a 66-68% hydration slow fermented dough? At what point is the hydration too high and the crust and crumb suffers?

Chau, for pizzas using 100% Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, which is what Pizza Napoletana is using, somewhere around the 66% mark is where I think the crust and crumb suffers.

Granted, in the past I have used a broiler technique that was anything but consistent heat (indeed usually a battle to cook a pizza), but I've tried a few batches in the 66% to 70% range with Caputo and am not able to get the airier, "fluffier", crusts I do at my normal rangeo of 60-62% HR.

It very likely could be that I have not made enough 66%+ HR all Caputo 00 Pizzeria doughs to become competent enough nail the crust at that level.

I've never gone down below 58% and I am intrigued to ratchet the HR down and play with that to see what happens. Got the 12" diameter bottom cut of the Weber done yesterday....went through 6 metal cutting disks on a Dremel, lol. Will cut the side vent today (hopefully) and (hopefully) cook some pizzas en la manana.

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2011, 10:15:44 AM »
Omid, attractive looking pizza.  :-*

Color corrected it....lookatdat milky cheese!
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2011, 11:54:31 AM »
Chau, for pizzas using 100% Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, which is what Pizza Napoletana is using, somewhere around the 66% mark is where I think the crust and crumb suffers.


Kelly,

I recall seeing hydrations as low as about 50% for a Neapolitan dough although such a hydration would not be common and would perhaps be limited to a weak 00 flour (but, that said, I have seen about 53% hydration for the Caputo Rosso). On the other end of the hydration spectrum, about the highest hydration value that I recall that Marco (pizzanapoletana) used was 67%. However, Marco was/is a master at working with such highly hydrated doughs. Also, he did not use stretch and folds and the like that I can recall. He also did not use the classic autolyse for the authentic Neapolitan, since that was not a method used by the pizzaioli in Naples (the mixing is a continuous activity). Marco used a riposo at the end of the dough making process and a final turn in the mixer bowl (see, for example, Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg15195.html#msg15195). Marco also talked about adding the salt late in the dough preparation process. This is a matter that is addressed in the FAQ section of the Italian pizza forum. That method would be limited to cases where the 00 flour is a strong 00 flour where presumably one does not want to strengthen the dough any more than is achieved by the mixing/kneading itself. The more common approach would be to add the salt up front.

Peter

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2011, 12:04:45 PM »
Good links Peter, thanks.

I believe Bill SFNM has had excellent results with high hydration Caputo dough. I know he is at higher elevation in Santa Fe, but he is also very adept at pizza making
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2011, 12:08:16 PM »
Omid, what is the temperature of your 'fermented at 22 hours at controlled room temperature' ?  Thanks in advance :chef:

I too would like to see some crumb shots.  Maybe cut a couple pieces with scissors, so we can see what is inside. ::)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 12:10:24 PM by Jet_deck »
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2011, 12:25:06 PM »
John,
First off, brilliant work!  FWIW, my hydration floats between 57-58% & have been extremely successful at that percentage.  Is the Suas method a true autolyse or modified to include yeast and/or starter?

Matt 

Thanks Matt - Suas explains it as flour and water only.

John

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2011, 12:46:38 PM »
Good links Peter, thanks.

I believe Bill SFNM has had excellent results with high hydration Caputo dough. I know he is at higher elevation in Santa Fe, but he is also very adept at pizza making

~75% in the batch that is currently fermenting. I keep cranking it up with better and better results. I'm working on the theory based on nothing more than intuition that the amazing lightness of this crust is due to the increased water bound up in the dough being vaporized when the dough it hits the hot WFO deck. I'll try to take some videos of the bake on Tuesday and post in the Tartine pizza thread. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2011, 12:10:18 AM »
Kelly & Peter.  I am aware that Bill has been making pizza with a 70% hydration using Caputo 00 and a tartine method with reported good results.   He posted several of his efforts at the Tartine pizza thread here.

Reply #57, #121, #141.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12122.40.html

John (Dellavechia) also posted a 70% 00 caputo pie in reply #102 of the same thread.

I myself have recently made a 68% 00 caputo pizzeria pie with good results.   Picture below...

Similar to Bill & John's protocol, I used a modified Tartine method involving stretch and folds.   As I have posted before, there are likely many different techniques that one can use to develop the gluten as long as he/she knows what to look for in the dough at different stages and knows how to balance the dough out.  

After giving some thought to my own questions, the only limiting factor I can think of is the short bake times of the NP style.   At some point, the bake time would be too short to bake out sufficient moisture and the rim/pie can be raw or have spots of unbaked dough.  This is likely the complaint that some Americans have when eating some NP pizza.   This would be considered a BIG fault in my eyes.  If the pizza is raw or even partially raw, then the hydration is too high.  Either lower the hydration, stretch the pie out thinner, or bake the pizza out a little longer.   To me (and IMHO) this shows the lack of knowledge on the part of the pizzaiolo.  A (partially) raw pizza is inexcusable.

One of the challenges I have seen in working with a really high hydration and a relatively weak flour is that it becomes increasingly harder to develop the gluten.  It is the equivalent of adding a bunch of oil into a NY style dough.   To compensate for such a high hydration, if using a mixer, one would have to increase the kneading time, use rest periods, and/or perhaps do some stretch and folds to build sufficient strength into the dough.  The problem with using a mixer in this scenario is that it becomes increasingly easy to overdevelop the gluten.  The faster the mixer, the smaller the margin for error.

So what happens when you over develop the gluten.  What I have seen is that in a normally hydrated dough, you get a chewy crumb.  Or more chewy than it needs to be.   In a highly hydrated dough that is baked in under 1.5m?  NOTHING.  The quick bake time will actually mask any faults in the dough.  The crust remains wet/moist even after the quick bake that it never shows it's true character.   A look at the crumb will reveal this, but on the teeth, many customers will never know.

This is the same reason that so many claim that you can't or shouldn't bake NP style pies at lower temps.  The reason given is that it gives a tough crumb.  BUT have you guys ever considered why the crumb is tough when baking at lower temps and for a longer time?  I believe it's because the gluten is overdeveloped and the longer bake time has revealed the true character of the dough.

Don't believe me?  How is it that I can make a loaf of bread with 00 flour and bake it at 500F for 40-45m and get a soft crumb?  Not tough, not chewy even after the loaf has cooled. If anyone hasn't made bread with 00 flour using the Tartine method, and wish to have a challenge and learn something new about dough, then you should.  If you underdevelop the gluten, then you will  get a dense bready crumb.  If you develop the gluten properly, then you will get an open soft crumb that remains so after the bread has cooled.  If you overdevelop the gluten (depending on if you hand mix or use a mixer - and I have done both), you can get either a open or tight celled crumb respectively and a slightly tough crumb as the bread cools.

So if the gluten is not overworked or overdeveloped, you can actually cook a NP pizza at lower temps for a longer period b/t 3-4m without getting a tough crumb.  I know this b/c I have done it many times with and without blending flours.  

I would be interested to know if Omid's crumbs are tough or not considering he bakes in the home oven between 2.5m - 3m.  If he is developing the dough properly, which I suspect he is, his crumb should be soft and moist.  

Chau
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 01:17:45 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2011, 04:25:13 AM »
Very interesting read Pizza Napoletana, this sheds some light on the often confusing topic of Caputo flour. In many older writting about Neapolitan pizza, it was suggested that a blend of American all purpose flour and cake flour would yield results close to Italian 00 flour. In recent years and particularly by members of this community, that concept was challenged as being inaccurate. The truth seems to be that Caputo is no longer being true to it's heritage, but has caved in to the pressures of the commercial world and has compromised the flour they produce. The once much lower protein version has been replaced by a higher protein version to meet world demand, and Italian tradition be damned. Thanks again for your post Pizza Napoletana, look forward to hearing more from you and good luck on your job search.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2011, 07:20:29 AM »

After giving some thought to my own questions, the only limiting factor I can think of is the short bake times of the NP style.


Great post Chau - I wonder if the same principles apply to the "cooling" effect of neapolitan pizza, whereby the crust is tender and crispy right out of the oven, but becomes chewy after cooling down. Many people say this is the true test of whether or not you have properly developed your NP dough. I agree, high heat masks a multitude of sins (my own included).

John


 

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