Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 449057 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #125 on: July 09, 2011, 05:01:11 AM »
Here are the specifications for the two pizzas baked last night (see the pictures below):

916 gr. Caputo "The Chef's Flour", tipo "00"
484 gr. Water
24 gr. Sea Salt
0.10 gr. Fresh Yeast

Effective hydration
Hydration percentage): 52.83%
Fermentation/levitation time: 22+4 hours at controlled room temperature
Dough ball weight: about 250 to 260 grams each
Oven temperature: about 729° F
Bake time: about 2 minutes and 41 seconds for the pizza margherita; about 2 minutes and 53 seconds for the sausage pizza
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:56:53 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #126 on: July 09, 2011, 05:03:31 AM »
 See above for specifications.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 02:37:34 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #127 on: July 09, 2011, 08:37:37 AM »
PN, your post about balancing the recipe out actually makes a lot of sense to me.  I can understand and appreciate your hesitation in sharing specific details of your technique here.  I was more or less wanting to see if I was in the ball park or not.   I did the experiment as mentioned above and got some rather suprising results.  I indeed had to make adjustments to the dough along the way to compensate for the effects of hydrating the dough and long fermentation.  

I posted the results of my experiment here at reply #20
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14610.msg145908.html#msg145908
I was able to see a difference between effective hydration and extended fermentation. 

Thanks for posting those crumb shots, they look perfect to my eyes.  Your level of achievement will give me something to work towards.  

Chau
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:10:25 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline DannyG

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #128 on: July 09, 2011, 08:47:58 AM »
I would assume, like a sponge soaking up water, that there is a point of maximum saturation where the flour becomes as hydrated as possible and no amount of time beyond that point would make a difference. Would that make sense?

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #129 on: July 09, 2011, 10:01:15 AM »
omid, that dough looks really tender and lite. very nice!!!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #130 on: July 09, 2011, 12:32:08 PM »
I would assume, like a sponge soaking up water, that there is a point of maximum saturation where the flour becomes as hydrated as possible and no amount of time beyond that point would make a difference. Would that make sense?

Dear DannyG, it does make sense. I would assume that after the saturation point (the point at which wheat flour, CXHXOX + CXHXNXOX, receives no more of water, H2O) is reached, then the difference would be a matter of chemical reactions that generate alcohol CH2CHOH, carbon dioxide CO2, lactic acid C3H6O3, various sugars, gluten reformation, and etc. The more I study the chemistry of dough, the more I realize how complex and puzzling it is.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 01:59:26 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #131 on: July 09, 2011, 01:29:45 PM »
omid, that dough looks really tender and lite. very nice!!!

Dear thezaman, talking about "tenderness", check out the tenderness of the da Michele pizza featured in the following Youtube video at "1:53" mark:



No need for knife and fork!
I can hear the pizza serenading her, "Love me tender, love me true. . . ."
For me, that is the apotheosis of tenderness. This pizza makes me humble!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 02:49:18 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #132 on: July 09, 2011, 04:12:09 PM »
Wow...I believe this encompasses the soul of NP....Have read lots of stuff regarding what it takes to make a great pizza (your understanding of materials, senses, process and simplicity), but Chris Bianco personally told me that that every pizza he makes reflects what he is about as a person(striving for perfection) (my words), and if you want to know what Chris represents, the Rosa mirrors what Chris is about (the epitome or metaphor)...You have shared in a philosophical way, truly what it takes to make an excellent pizza, and I believe have implied that this is a constantly moving target and truly an art form in which your improved skills over time will make you a better pizziolo, striving to, but never to, achieve true perfection...Once again, Wow....RJelli
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #133 on: July 09, 2011, 07:19:32 PM »
Pizza Napoletana. Thank you for sharing that link. I've watched a lot of Da Michele videos, but have never seen that one.

The more I watch videos of this place, the more I am convinced it is not to my personal liking.

At 0:55 the pizzamaker literally pummels the skin with what I personally consider to be way, way...and way too much sauce. The pliability of the dough and tender characteristics looks enticing, but that is just a totally soupy mess. To be blunt, the texture of the pizza in the middle with all the sauce and oil running amok almost looks like the consistency of spinach which has been cooked far too long and gets that nearly "phlegmy" texture. It may respresent truly authentic, but that doesn't mean one has to like it.

Understand I completely respect the tradition of Neapolitan pizza, but I also know my personal tastes. To me, for a pizza style that is so focused on the crust, that amount of sauce is pushing a disrespect of the crust, IMO.

The video is interesting in that it gives a close-up shot which shows the left side of the oven....that is a monster ember pile working there!
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #134 on: July 10, 2011, 02:06:51 AM »
Here are the specifications for the two pizzas baked tonight (see the pictures below):

872 gr. Caputo "The Chef's Flour", tipo "00"
484 gr. Water
24 gr. Sea Salt
0.10 gr. Fresh Yeast

Effective hydration
Hydration percentage: 55.50%
Fermentation/levitation time: 18+3 hours at controlled room temperature
Dough ball weight: about 250 to 260 grams each
Oven temperature: about 711° F
Bake time: about 2 minutes and 34 seconds for the rossa; about 2 minutes and 49 seconds for the bianca
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 03:23:59 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2011, 02:12:40 AM »
See above for the specifications.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #136 on: July 10, 2011, 08:07:11 AM »
I also must agree with Pizzablogger on the sauce I realize this is the known as one of the best pizzas in the world But this "Pizza Napoletano" cooked here is more what I am in search of.   Nice fire (flame making love to the oven dome) quick (think it was 60 sec?) and (In my not so trained eye) Beautiful!! as well  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SSvfOsX_s8&feature=related   Dont get me wrong. De Michele will be one of my 1st stops when I make it to the promise land
 now that I can write off the entire trip on Flirting with ire  ;D I am starting to think "when?"
John
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 08:15:39 AM by JConk007 »
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #137 on: July 10, 2011, 08:31:56 AM »
I would assume, like a sponge soaking up water, that there is a point of maximum saturation where the flour becomes as hydrated as possible and no amount of time beyond that point would make a difference. Would that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. You may not want to let the flour and water "hang out" for undetermined amounts of time besides.

One thing to remember is that the activity of the protease enzymes begin when flour and water are combined, regardless of whether yeast is added or not.

So, if you are already utilizing a long fermentation time and added a long autolyse period to your process, you are increasing the amount of time the proteolytic activity occurs over. While the impact of extended gluten degradation may be minimal, it is something you should account for...particularly if employing ambient temperature autolyse and fermentation where the enzyme activity occurs more quickly at these warmer temps (as opposed to retarded fermentations).

All the more reason to pay attention to your senses and what the dough is telling you along the way, as Omid has correctly pointed out. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2011, 07:05:02 PM »
Wow...I believe this encompasses the soul of NP....Have read lots of stuff regarding what it takes to make a great pizza (your understanding of materials, senses, process and simplicity), but Chris Bianco personally told me that that every pizza he makes reflects what he is about as a person(striving for perfection) (my words), and if you want to know what Chris represents, the Rosa mirrors what Chris is about (the epitome or metaphor)...You have shared in a philosophical way, truly what it takes to make an excellent pizza, and I believe have implied that this is a constantly moving target and truly an art form in which your improved skills over time will make you a better pizziolo, striving to, but never to, achieve true perfection...Once again, Wow....RJelli

Dear Randy, I sincerely thank you for your compliments. I hope I have treated the tradition justly. Please, give my regards to Mr. Chris Bianco!

Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #139 on: July 11, 2011, 01:27:56 AM »
Tonight's pizza, made by special request for a dear friend!

All the percentages below are by "total weight", not baker's percentage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
62.68% 866 gr. Caputo "The Chef's Flour", tipo "00"
34.57% 478 gr. Water
2.75%   24 gr.  Sea Salt
1.00%   14 gr.  Lievito Naturale
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100% Total
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Effective hydration
Fermentation/levitation time: 26+3 hours at controlled room temperature
Dough ball weight: about 250 to 260 grams each
Oven temperature: about 691° F
Bake time: 2 minutes and 39 seconds
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 11:40:34 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline DannyG

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #140 on: July 11, 2011, 08:27:01 AM »
Omid, the baked dough almost looks translucent. What a beautiful pie, I bet it tasted as good as it looks.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2011, 12:38:43 AM »
Omid, the baked dough almost looks translucent. What a beautiful pie, I bet it tasted as good as it looks.

Dear DannyG, I thank you for your compliment! Frankly, I am not keen on pear pizza (fresh oregano, fior di latte, fresh diced Japanese pears, gorgonzola, fresh basil, and fruity olive oil). However, I think it is definitely worth your while to try it, if you have not already. I have noticed that some Californians believe that the pear pizza is of Californian origin. I really doubt it, for the simple balance of the ingredients do not implicate a Californian sensibility! In variance, some others believe that "California Pizza Kitchen" was the original inventor. The first time I had pear pizza was about 14 years ago in Rome, Italy–where the recipe is believed to have had its genesis. Thereafter, about 12 years ago, Trader Joe's (a california food market) commenced to import frozen pear pizzas from Italy. Good night!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 08:22:48 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2011, 08:01:16 PM »
I'm going to have read this a few more times to find something I disagree with. There must be something you got wrong, but I haven't found it yet. Doesn't the Internet exist so that we can show others how wrong they are? How frustrating! Seriously, this is the best description of the beloved pizza of Naples that I have ever read. If you can bake pizzas as well as you write about them, you should open your own joint.

Dear Bill, I believe somewhere in this forum I read that you operate a forcella mixer by "Santos". Until a couple of months ago, I used a forcella mixer made in Iran, but it broke. So, today, my wife surprised me by disclosing that she has electronically purchased for me a Santos Dough Mixer (model #18). If you do not mind, I have several concerns. I am wondering how you like your mixer, and if you have any tips. Already, by watching some videos about the mixer, I have noticed that the fork rotation seems to be faster than I prefer. Moreover, according to the Santos' website, lifting the safety cover automatically stops the mixer. Can the rotation speed be decelerated (hoping that it will not jeopardize the rotation of the mixer bowl)? How about disabling the safety feature of lifting the cover? What is the smallest amount of dough that can be prepared with this mixer? At last, is there a difference between Santos "18" and Santos "18n"? Please, forgive me for asking too many questions! I thank you in advance for your trouble. Good night!

Follow up:
I have added a second picture of Santos mixer below, which I think is the model #18. Notice it has a different base than the first picture, which probably exhibits model #18N.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 09:27:26 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2011, 08:24:18 PM »
Omid,
 I would like your thoughts on  the Bosch mixer and all the threads and praises Jackie Tran Is a big fan as am I and I know Scottr actually prefers the bosch to the point he  sold his Santos mixer. I personally use the diving arm now but all my home mixing is done witha a bosch produces a beautiful high hydration %60-%69 neapolitan dough.
thanks
John
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2011, 09:08:42 PM »
I would like your thoughts on  the Bosch mixer. . . .

Dear John, I have never operated the Bosch mixer and, unfortunately, do not know anything about it. Please, let me know which model of Bosch mixer you use so I can look it up on the net. And, also, let me know which brand and model of diving arm mixer you own. Thank you!

Omid
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 09:18:41 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2011, 09:22:09 PM »
Omid - Congrats on your gift! I don't have a Santos, but here is a video of one modified for slower speed and the cover removed:



John

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2011, 09:27:13 PM »
The person who made that video is a member on this forum. You might want to pm him and see how he did it on his. His username is scpizza http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2823.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #147 on: July 12, 2011, 09:31:51 PM »
Omid - Congrats on your gift! I don't have a Santos, but here is a video of one modified for slower speed and the cover removed:



John

Now, that is sublime! Do you know how the two modifications are accomplished? Thank you!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #148 on: July 12, 2011, 09:33:18 PM »
The person who made that video is a member on this forum. You might want to pm him and see how he did it on his. His username is scpizza http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2823.

God bless your soul!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #149 on: July 12, 2011, 10:22:17 PM »
Dear Bill, I believe somewhere in this forum I read that you operate a forcella mixer by "Santos". Until a couple of months ago, I used a forcella mixer made in Iran, but it broke. So, today, my wife surprised me by disclosing that she has electronically purchased for me a Santos Dough Mixer (model #18). If you do not mind, I have several concerns. I am wondering how you like your mixer, and if you have any tips. Already, by watching some videos about the mixer, I have noticed that the fork rotation seems to be faster than I prefer. Moreover, according to the Santos' website, lifting the safety cover automatically stops the mixer. Can the rotation speed be decelerated (hoping that it will not jeopardize the rotation of the mixer bowl)? How about disabling the safety feature of lifting the cover? What is the smallest amount of dough that can be prepared with this mixer? At last, is there a difference between Santos "18" and Santos "18n"? Please, forgive me for asking too many questions! I thank you in advance for your trouble. Good night!

Follow up:
I have added a second picture of Santos mixer below, which I think is the model #18. Notice it has a different base than the first picture, which probably exhibits model #18N.

Congratulations on your new mixer. You clearly have an awesome wife. Mine is the one shown in the top photo. Not sure what the difference is. Some quick answers:

1. It is easy to defeat the safety feature.  I just jammed a piece of wood into the switch and wrapped an elastic velcro band around the stand to hold it in place.

2. As of a few months ago, I have stopped (temporarily?) using it for pizza and baguette dough, preferring the Tartine fold method which allows me to create a more highly hydrated dough - for me a good thing although not a universally held position around this forum. I still use it with great success for my stiffer doughs like bagels, brioche, rye, struan, etc. At some point I'll make up a batch of pizza dough again with the Santos to see how much of the progress I attribute to the Tartine method is an artifact of other decisions or a shift in my preferences.

3. The smaller the batch of dough, the more manual intervention you'll have to do to insure even kneading. My standard batch size is 1250g but I've had no problems with 1000g. Don't think I've tried less.

4. There have been discussions in this forum about ways to slow down the mixer - rheostats, changing motor gears, etc. Not something I ever considered. It is my experience that is very hard to overheat or overknead the dough. However, I am also at 7000 feet above sea level with a lower partial pressure of oxygen in the atmosphere which could be a factor.

  
 
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