Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 172010 times)

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Offline scott r

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #160 on: July 13, 2011, 02:32:39 PM »
Now, that is sublime! Do you know how the two modifications are accomplished? Thank you!

as bill stated, the lifting of the guard is a very simple easy mod, but slowing down the santos is quite the opposite.   I spent months trying to find someone that was qualified to do the mod, and finally gave up.    It involves installing a new motor and a variable speed drive, which is not as easy as you might think because the santos motor is a very unusual size.    Maybe Scpizza can chime in here, but im pretty sure there is a hidden motor frankensteined to the side that was hidden by the curtain in this video.    While the new motor and variable drive only costs around $500, finding someone with the metalworking skills to do this is no easy task, and the custom installation has the potential to be quite costly.   You also end up with a santos that has a hole in it with a motor sticking out of the side.

I hope I am wrong, but I fear that if you are accustomed to using a slower speed fork mixer you may find that the santos is unable to make the same quality dough.   I was happy with mine until I worked at a pizzeria that had an italian fork mixer (moving at half the speed as the unmodded santos).    I ended up doing a bunch of back and forth tests, and was never able to make a dough that was nearly as good with my santos as I was able to make in the italian fork mixer.      You would think that just mixing half as long would get you close, but in my experience that was not the case....even with a long autolyse given to the santos mix.   I ended up realizing that hand mixing was the only way to get a dough as good as what I could make in the full size italian fork mixer.   A close second was the bosch universal plus mixer, but the drawback with that mixer is that it really works best with doughs under about 63% hydration.   The electrolux dlx can also get pretty close, but only works wonders with doughs above 63ish hydrations and requires lots of babysitting.      

If you are able to modify your santos to go at half speed I do think you will end up with the ultimate home mixer for neapolitan style pizza.  
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 03:13:06 PM by scott r »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2011, 02:52:31 PM »
Fantastic post Scott!

Omid - Do you have any opinion on what percentage of salt Da Michele is using since they use the madre method?

John

Offline scott r

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2011, 03:14:08 PM »
Thanks John!    I know da michelle varies their salt depending on the weather.    Also, they no longer use a starter, a few years ago they went back to bakers yeast.   

Just thinking about this santos thing a little more.   Bills' pies made with his santos at full speed are totally amazing looking, and I wish he was my neighbor !!!!   Im not sure anyone can do much better than what he makes, but some day I hope to see him do a shootout between the santos and hand mixing.  I feel like we were doing the same methods, but clearly he is making some of the finest pies in the US with his santos.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 03:15:46 PM by scott r »

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2011, 04:41:23 PM »
.... but clearly he is making some of the finest pies in the US with his santos.

My thoughts exactly when I see many of Bill's pies.

Another level.  :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2011, 05:01:02 PM »
@BrickStoneOven

That picture of all the fior-di-latte balls at Salvo you posted is driving me NUTS.

I literally want to face plant into that pile of mootz!  :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #165 on: July 14, 2011, 01:15:46 AM »
Omid - Do you have any opinion on what percentage of salt Da Michele is using since they use the madre method?
John


Dear John, you asked, "Do you have any opinion on what percentage of salt Da Michele is using . . . ?" I have no idea, for there are many ways to skin a cat! But let me quickly ascertain some points that can be extrapolated from the famous Youtube video (
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pxmIFz5914" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pxmIFz5914</a>
) and from some other sources:

1. Da Michele, according to the video, uses the tap water of Naples. Having tasted it, I can indecisively conclude that it is hard water, containing high carbonates or mineral salts, over 400 parts per millimeter (PPM). (According to the City of San Diego, San Diego's water has about 229 to 325 PPM, which is one of the highest in the nation.) And, it is said that salts such as magnesium and calcium indurate the gluten in dough.

2. Da Michele, per the video, uses Caputo flour "Pizzeria tipo 00", which contains about 12.5% protein according to Caputo's own data sheet that was disseminated some years ago.
 
3. Da Michele, per the video, utilizes forcella mixer with a low RPM, implying that gluten formation during mechanical kneading is slow and gentle.

4. Da Michele, according to the video, uses pasta madre (i.e., "sourdough"), with the addition of baker's "yeast" during cold season. (An Italian friend of mine conveyed to me the quoted translations.)

5. Judging by the consistency of the dough in the video, Da Michele indubitably hydrates the flour at a high rate, in excess of 58% but probably below 67%. (I could be wrong.) I have personally witnessed their dough balls, during summer, going flat, akin to a pancake, inside the proofing trays. Nevertheless, the dough balls seem to stably hold their composition.

6. Da Michele, as stated in the video and in the Washington Post interview, applies long fermentation (at least 15 hours at room temperature in the cellar below the pizzeria). As seen in the video, fermentation takes place inside a large metal tub placed in the cellar (where the temperature is probably between 71° and 74° F during summer, and lower during winter). In addition, the tub is covered with a large lid that is not transparent to light waves. (Check out on the net the effects of absence of light waves on yeast cells fermenting sugar. There might be, however, no correlation in this case.)

7. Having tasted Da Michele's pizza, the crust usually has an exquisite texture, gentle flavor, and whispering sourness—intimating that the fermentation and levitation are not carried out in an overpowering manner. Also, indicating that the dough's acidic content is low, which in turn insinuates that the cellar's ambient temperature is probably below75° F.

8. At last, an Italian friend of mine, who is a brick oven builder, alleges that Da Michele does not put out the fire in the brick oven when the pizzeria is closed, and that they would not be able to produce the same pizza without the oven, which is well-seasoned and privileged with old age. This is a good point, if true!

So, given the scanty and fragmentary nature of the data above, can we inductively infer how much salt Da Michele uses? Probably over 2% but not exceeding 3.00%. Just a cautious conjecture based on inconclusive and incomplete data! Good luck in replicating Da Michele's dough, and please let me know about the outcome. Good night!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 08:04:31 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #166 on: July 14, 2011, 01:42:16 AM »
If you are able to modify your santos to go at half speed I do think you will end up with the ultimate home mixer for neapolitan style pizza.

Dear Scott, I am thankful to you for your time and all the information. I have already talked to an electrical engineer (who used to fix the motors that rotate the blades used by brain surgeons to cut human parietal skull bone), and he told me it should not be difficult to modify the RPM of the Santos, depending on how it is built. However, the gentleman lives in San Fernando Valley, which is about 3 hours away from here. I do not know when I am going to find the time to drive up there. I will keep you up to date!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #167 on: July 14, 2011, 09:28:16 AM »
6. Da Michele, as stated in the video and in the Washington Post interview, applies long fermentation (at least 15 hours at room temperature in the cellar below the pizzeria). As seen in the video, fermentation takes place inside a large metal tub placed in the cellar (where the temperature is probably between 71° and 74° F during summer, and lower during winter).


Omid,

According to Marco (pizzanapoletana), in a 2005 post at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12548/topicseen.html#msg12548, the Da Michele dough is fermented at room temperature for 20+ hours and, in the summer, in the cellar at around 22 degrees C, which is around 71.6 degrees F. So your numbers line up with Marco's.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #168 on: July 14, 2011, 02:53:07 PM »
Bills' pies made with his santos at full speed are totally amazing looking, and I wish he was my neighbor !!!!   Im not sure anyone can do much better than what he makes, but some day I hope to see him do a shootout between the santos and hand mixing.  I feel like we were doing the same methods, but clearly he is making some of the finest pies in the US with his santos.

Wow! Thank you. I don't know what to say.  :-[

So I guess it is time for a shootout. Next batch will be a Santos 62% batch vs. a Tartine-fold 70+%, 2-day 60F doughs. Should be interesting.

Offline scott r

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #169 on: July 14, 2011, 03:01:38 PM »
Dear Scott, I am thankful to you for your time and all the information. I have already talked to an electrical engineer (who used to fix the motors that rotate the blades used by brain surgeons to cut human parietal skull bone), and he told me it should not be difficult to modify the RPM of the Santos, depending on how it is built. However, the gentleman lives in San Fernando Valley, which is about 3 hours away from here. I do not know when I am going to find the time to drive up there. I will keep you up to date!

that is good news.  Unfortunately because of the single phaze capacitor start motor, the experts will tell you that it can not accept any type of speed control, and there is not enough room in there to make larger gears etc.    It is possible to have the motor rewound to three phaze which will allow the use of a variable frequency drive, but the price quotes I was getting for the rewind were in excess of $1000.    Another option is to remove the existing motor and mount one on the side that will accept a variable frequency drive.  The tricky part will be mating the two so that the new motor shaft will fit with the santos internal worm gear.   Good luck!    

« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:07:54 PM by scott r »

Offline scott r

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #170 on: July 14, 2011, 03:04:27 PM »
Wow! Thank you. I don't know what to say.  :-[

So I guess it is time for a shootout. Next batch will be a Santos 62% batch vs. a Tartine-fold 70+%, 2-day 60F doughs. Should be interesting.

I love shootouts!   

also maybe do two with the same hydration, one by hand and one santos...... pretty please!!!

Offline scott r

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #171 on: July 14, 2011, 03:05:30 PM »
oh yeah, im getting tired of keeping secrets......   the da michelle dough is 64.5% hydration  >:D


also, I am pretty sure they have now abandoned using a starter all together.    >:(
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 03:09:26 PM by scott r »

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #172 on: July 14, 2011, 05:40:50 PM »
Share all secrets!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #173 on: July 14, 2011, 06:24:28 PM »
Omid - I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experience with Da Michele. Many thanks.

Scott - Thank you as well for your insight.

My first attempt at Da Michele dough was a major failure, but I did learn some things. I guessed 63% hydration from the video, so I was not far off from what Scott said. I also noticed from the video that the dough showed no outward signs of fermentation - even when they go to use the balls there are no little air pockets and it looks a little dense. So I imagined that there was very little fermentation going on from "old dough" and decided on 1% of water for the starter (and a stiff one at that). It did not work out that well. The dough was very soft, but I did not have the forethought of developing the gluten more during stretch and folds to compensate for the low amount of starter. The crust was a bit dense, but did have a super soft texture.

I have some ideas on how to improve the formula, but for now here is a pic of the failed attempt. It tasted fine, though.

John

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #174 on: July 14, 2011, 07:45:12 PM »
Omid,

According to Marco (pizzanapoletana), in a 2005 post at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12548/topicseen.html#msg12548, the Da Michele dough is fermented at room temperature for 20+ hours and, in the summer, in the cellar at around 22 degrees C, which is around 71.6 degrees F. So your numbers line up with Marco's.

Peter


Dear Peter, I thank you for the input! Please, allow me to ask you, who is Marco? Here in this forum, I occasionally encounter his name being mentioned by various members. By the way, I enjoy reading your posts, which I find illuminative and well written. Thank you!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 12:30:38 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #175 on: July 14, 2011, 07:58:17 PM »
Omid - I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experience with Da Michele. Many thanks.

Scott - Thank you as well for your insight.

My first attempt at Da Michele dough was a major failure, but I did learn some things. I guessed 63% hydration from the video, so I was not far off from what Scott said. I also noticed from the video that the dough showed no outward signs of fermentation - even when they go to use the balls there are no little air pockets and it looks a little dense. So I imagined that there was very little fermentation going on from "old dough" and decided on 1% of water for the starter (and a stiff one at that). It did not work out that well. The dough was very soft, but I did not have the forethought of developing the gluten more during stretch and folds to compensate for the low amount of starter. The crust was a bit dense, but did have a super soft texture.

I have some ideas on how to improve the formula, but for now here is a pic of the failed attempt. It tasted fine, though.

John

Dear John, thank you for sharing the results. I look forward to your future attempts!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #176 on: July 14, 2011, 09:26:47 PM »
Please, allow me to ask you, who is Marco? Here in this forum, I occasionally encounter his name being mentioned by various members.


I'm going to make an educated guess and say the first time you tried to make your screen name it didn't let you because it was already taken http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=417. You have the same SN as him. I'll let peter or Scott explain who Marco is since they would be a better job than I would.

To be honest I thought he made the same SN and that you were him... :-D

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #177 on: July 14, 2011, 09:32:07 PM »
John that pie looks good to me. I was wondering if you could make a different thread with your results on the Da Michele pies so we can all see what you and Chau have up your sleeves.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #178 on: July 14, 2011, 09:35:34 PM »
I'm going to make an educated guess and say the first time you tried to make your screen name it didn't let you because it was already taken http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=417. You have the same SN as him. I'll let peter or Scott explain who Marco is since they would be a better job than I would.

To be honest I thought he made the same SN and that you were him... :-D


Dear BrickStone, the system actually gave me no problem in picking the name "Pizza Napoletana" as my screen name. I believe Marco's screen name is "pizzanapoletana", without any space in between. How come no one ever took my screen name before? I guess I am lucky!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 09:37:36 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #179 on: July 14, 2011, 09:51:36 PM »
Dear BrickStone, the system actually gave me no problem in picking the name "Pizza Napoletana" as my screen name. I believe Marco's screen name is "pizzanapoletana", without any space in between. How come no one ever took my screen name before? I guess I am lucky!

I thought you tried to make your name the first time without the space and it said that the name was taken. So that's why you put the space in there. But either way it's nice to have you here.