Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 517856 times)

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Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #750 on: October 26, 2011, 10:26:22 AM »
Omid,

I also wanted to thank you for your description of how you maintain your natural starter.  It has helped me tremendously in keeping mine balanced in the exact manner I prefer. 

Salvatore


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #751 on: October 26, 2011, 07:20:19 PM »
Omid, beautiful, especially the second pie.  Are you going back and forth between the Santos and the KA?  I'm curious what your latest thoughts are concerning the Santos?

Grazie,
Salvatore

Dear Salvatore, occasionally I use my Santos Fork Mixer so that it would not gather dust on my kitchen counter! I wrote "occasionally" because Santos has one major flaw, which renders it substantially inferior to Kitchen Aid and some other mixers, in my opinion. While the French mixer is solidly designed and built with quality parts, its fork speed is excruciatingly fast: 84 rotations per minute at 60Hz.

In contrast, The Italian Pietroberto mixer "La Vittoria 35" has a fork speed of 26 RPM for its 1-speed model, and fork speeds of 20.5 RPM and 31 RPM for its 2-speed model. Furthermore, Pietroberto mixer "La Vittoria 17" has a fork speed of 23 RPM for its 1-speed model, and fork speeds of 20.5 RPM and 31 RPM for its 2-speed model. The Iranian counter-top fork mixer I owned prior to Santos had a fork speed of 25 RPM. Santos' 84 RPM is excessively fast for production of Neapolitan dough.

One of the main attractions of Santos fork mixer is that it seems to be the only commercially available counter-top fork mixer in the U.S. with a relatively lower capacity. If the fork speed can be considerably reduced, Santos has the potential to be one of the best counter-top mixers. The Santos representative in France, Mr. Nicolas Fouquet, has been made aware of this problem through the generous efforts of Mr. Louis ("Zeppi" in this forum). He has told him that the Santos engineers are trying to come up with a solution to reduce the fork speed. I can't wait! I hope that Santos realizes how much this issue may have hurt their sales in the United States. I know many individuals that have decided not to purchase Santos fork mixers particularly due to this problem. Good night!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 01:04:04 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #752 on: October 27, 2011, 11:41:33 AM »
Omid,

Thank you for all of the information.  It would be wonderful if Santos can resolve the issue.

My question now is when you are using the KA mixer, are you employing the paddle or the dough hook?  I know my KA, when using 1st speed, has 40 RPM.  If you use it with the spiral dough hook, however, this translates to 94 RPM. 



Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #753 on: October 27, 2011, 01:03:36 PM »
Spider man webbing in there!  :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #754 on: October 27, 2011, 01:03:37 PM »
Omid, stop leaving these beautiful broads in the dark!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:17:53 PM by pizzablogger »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #755 on: October 27, 2011, 06:41:52 PM »
Omid . . . My question now is when you are using the KA mixer, are you employing the paddle or the dough hook?  I know my KA, when using 1st speed, has 40 RPM.  If you use it with the spiral dough hook, however, this translates to 94 RPM.  
Grazie,
Salvatore

Dear Salvatore, when I use my KitchenAid stand mixer (Pro 620) for the purpose of making pizza dough, I always use the "spiral dough hook" on the slowest speed only, i.e., the "stir" speed.

If you meant to compare the RPM of the KitchenAid Mixer with the RPM of Santos Fork Mixer, each has its own unique dynamics that make comparison between the two not easy. In other words, the 84 RPM of Santos' fork is of a different class than the, as you put it, "94 RPM" of KitchenAid's spiral hook.

It appears that the KitchenAid mixers have two simultaneous RPMs at each speed:

1. The clockwise, horizontal-axis RPM of the "shaft" (AKA "beater shaft") to which the hook is attached, and
2. The counter-clockwise, horizontal-axis RPM of the "shaft holder" (AKA "planetary") which orbits the rotating shaft around the circumference of the mixer bowl which is stationary.
(And, of course, there is the RPM of the "motor" itself, which is the impetus underlying the "shaft" RPM and the "shaft holder" RPM.

I am not sure to what extent, if at all, the clockwise rotation of the "shaft" and the counter-clockwise rotation of the "shaft holder" cancel out or counter-effect one another. I know for sure that the speed of the "shaft holder" of my KitchenAid is 40 RPM at the "stir" speed. I do not know the "shaft" RPM. (Last week, I telephoned a KitchenAid representative who unfortunately could not find out the RPMs of my mixer!) In contrast, Santos has only one RPM:

1. The motor speed of 1800 RPM (at 60 Hz), which translates to vertical-axis, not horizontal, counter-clockwise fork RPM of 84. (The motion of dough rotates the non-motorized mixer bowl clockwise.)

Generally speaking, some Santos owners, including myself, believe that 5 minutes of kneading with Santos (which has only one speed) is probably tantamount to 20 minutes of kneading with KitchenAid at the slowest speed. As you can see, the excessive fork speed of the Santos mixer is quite overwhelming!

Fork mixers, in general and in contrast to planetary mixers, more effectively contribute to "physical rising", not biological rising, of dough during kneading, which implies that the dough is oxygenated in a better manner (without heating up) for the purpose of making Neapolitan dough.

Unfortunately, the fast speed, not the physical design, of the Santos mixer's fork over-oxygenates and heats up (not as much as many other mixers such as the Kitchen Aid) the dough, in addition to over-buttressing the gluten network throughout the dough mass—which results in a crust that is not tender enough for Neapolitan pizza. Having a Santos fork mixer is akin to owning a Stradivarius violin that has its tuning pegs permanently glued to the peg holes inside the headstock! There is no point playing the violin if it can not be tuned, does not matter how divine it sounds. Good day!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 06:46:00 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #756 on: October 27, 2011, 07:14:04 PM »
Omid,

The Stradivarius analogy is wonderfully accurate!

I have been in contact with Kitchen-Aid, and here are the RPMs for my Professional 5 Plus Series:  (I believe they will be the same for your machine)

        Shaft               Shaft-Holder
Stir   40 rpm                94 rpm
#2    54 rpm                127 rpm
#3    79 rpm                186 rpm
#4    104 rpm              244 rpm

I didn't pay much attention to anything higher.  It is a shame, because the motion of the Santos looks wonderful.  Hopefully they resolve the issue and find a way to slow it down to a usable rate.

Salvatore

« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 07:15:35 PM by salvatoregianpaolo »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #757 on: October 27, 2011, 07:18:25 PM »
Omid, stop leaving these beautiful broads in the dark!

Dear Pizzablogger, thank you so much for the enhancement of the pictures of my pizzas! You make them look better than what they actually are. Good night!  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 11:04:21 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #758 on: October 27, 2011, 07:21:05 PM »
I have been in contact with Kitchen-Aid, and here are the RPMs for my Professional 5 Plus Series:  (I believe they will be the same for your machine)

        Shaft         Shaft-Holder
Stir   40 rpm                94 rpm
#2    54 rpm                127 rpm
#3    79 rpm                186 rpm
#4    104 rpm              244 rpm

Thank you for the valuable data.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 07:22:54 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #759 on: October 27, 2011, 08:29:17 PM »
Omid, do you use a special light bulb in the light that we see that you use for all of your pictures?

Dear Jet, for lighting I use one single "Jansjo Work lamp" (which I purchased for $9.99 from Ikea), plus the ordinary light bulb on the ceiling of my kitchen that I usually turn off. (See the picture of my setup below.) Moreover, I use a Canon PowerShot S95, usually set on "auto". I do not use any flash at all. I hope this helps. Good night!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 08:34:55 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #760 on: October 27, 2011, 11:26:24 PM »
It helps tremendously, Omid.  I conclude that I have been forgetting to turn off the other lights. :-D

How many other things do you do as well as pizza, photography and oven re-construction?  :chef:
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #761 on: October 28, 2011, 03:12:14 AM »
Last night, I let my conventional gas oven reach 1035° F on the floor and about the same on the dome. Then, I turned off the oven. After 20 minutes of being off, the floor (composed of a stack of three pizza stones) downgraded to 846° F and the dome to 961° F. At that point, I loaded the Pizza Margherita inside the oven.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
1000 gr. Caputo Pizzeria     (Datum Point)
645   gr. Water                 (64.5%)
30     gr. Sea Salt              (3.0%)
40     gr. Sourdough Culture (4%)
_______________________________________________________________________________________

As shown below, it was not a good idea to bake the pizza with the oven off; it took 2 minutes and 35 seconds for the pizza to bake. And, it does not matter what!—a modified conventional gas oven, for obvious reasons, does not seem to produce a crust as tender as a crust baked in a Neapolitan oven. At best, it is a good simulation of a tender Neapolitan crust! All these experiments with my gas oven, since a month and a half ago until present, have been quite educational and worth my while. I wonder what results I may procure if I replace my pizza stones with "soapstone slabs"—which probably are not as moisture-absorbant as my present pizza stones.

By the way, the buffalo mozzarella (Auriemma S.R.L. DOP from Campana) used on the pizza below was terrible! It had the consistency of feta cheese, contained little fat, did not want to melt, and had absolutely no gamy flavor characteristic of Bufala di Mozzarella.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 05:29:24 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #762 on: October 28, 2011, 03:13:35 AM »
Continued . . .
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 03:52:34 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #763 on: October 28, 2011, 06:30:46 AM »
How many other things do you do as well as pizza, photography and oven re-construction?  :chef:



Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline andreguidon

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #764 on: October 28, 2011, 06:47:04 AM »
cool videos Omid!! nice guitarra flamenca skills!!
i work in the music business, and one of my clients is Fernando de la Rua () do you know him?
http://www.myspace.com/fernandodelarua
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #765 on: October 28, 2011, 07:09:11 AM »




And to think I had Paco de Lucia on in the background as I watched those videos!

Funny coincidence.

Excellent videos!
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #766 on: October 29, 2011, 04:03:17 AM »
cool videos Omid!! nice guitarra flamenca skills!! i work in the music business, and one of my clients is Fernando de la Rua () do you know him?

Thank you! Unfortunately, I am not familiar with Fernando de la Rua. I will check him out on the net. I love the guitar music, and the orchestral works, of the Brazilian composer Heitor Villa-Lobos. Your country, Brazil, is definitely a landmark on the guitar map of the world. Good night!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 04:59:36 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #767 on: October 29, 2011, 04:56:24 AM »
And to think I had Paco de Lucia on in the background as I watched those videos!

Funny coincidence.

Excellent videos!

Thank you! Did you know that Neapolitan pizza fever is also becoming prevalent in Spain? Early this year, I found two new Neapolitan pizzerias there, in Jerez de la Frontera and Sevilla, in addition to the ones I had found in my earlier trips. When I tried the one in Sevilla, I had to wait in a long line for 2 hours and 30 minutes, so I thought it had to be good. Unfortunately, it was the opposite! The rest of them were just as bad. You can see below a picture I shot of the Pizza Margherita I had at the Neapolitan pizzeria in Jerez. It was actually tasty, but definitely not Neapolitan. (It was baked in a wood-fired oven!) It is interesting that Spain is almost next door to Italy, yet America, which is thousands of miles away from Italy, produces way better Neapolitan pizzas than most of European nations, in my opinion. Good night!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 07:03:43 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #768 on: October 29, 2011, 07:31:25 PM »
Not long ago, I talked to a corporate owner of a Neapolitan pizzeria who told me that, bufala di mozzarella imported from Italy enter the U.S. in a frozen state. (I think he mentioned that often "liquid nitrogen" is used to freeze the mozzarella balls!) If truly so, there goes out the window a percentage of the texture and flavor of the bufala di mozzarella imported to this country from Italy! Moreover, to the best of my knowledge, bufala di mozzarella is supposed to be "fresh" (hence "fresh mozzarella"), not aged. Because of the unavoidable factors of distance and time, the mozzarella balls imported to the U.S. are not as fresh as one hopes them to be. Therefore, there are inevitable compromises!

There is a new member in this forum. Let's welcome Mr. Richard Eberle (here known as "Bufalatte") of "BufaLatte USA", which is, as he put it, "an Italian-American joint venture dedicated to bringing true Mozzarella di Bufala to the U.S. Market." He continued, "We . . . bring all of our buffalo milk in [the U.S.] from Italy. Our first plant is in Florida." When I asked him, "Will your company produce "buffalo ricotta", which is quite rare [and unknown] in the U.S.?", he replied: "As of now it is only buffalo mozzarella but when scale permits we hopefully will start our own curd production which opens the door to a buffalo ricotta." I hope this is the light at the end of the tunnel! (http://www.bufalatte.com/index.html)

Has anyone here tried ricotta made with water buffalo milk? If you try it, you may never want to go back to the regular ricotta. I look forward to the venture and their products. Perhaps, this is one way we can get our hands on fresh Mozzarella di Bufala—at lower prices and without them being frozen.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 09:11:24 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #769 on: October 29, 2011, 08:32:48 PM »
I had ricotta di bufala my last time in Italy....excellent.

With regards to the milk of this new venture:

Is it raw milk being shipped to the US and then processed (assuming an air flight in that instance)?

About what is the total elapsed time from milk coming out of the udder in Italy to the milk being made into bufala in the US?

Thank you . -k
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Offline Bufalatte

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #770 on: October 29, 2011, 09:03:21 PM »
Hello All

Thank you for the introduction to this thread.

As most of you know buffalo mozzarella is extremely popular in Italy due to its availability and freshness. The mozz is produced, sold and consumed within a very short period of time normally within 48 hours or so.  So there are complications in maintaining freshness when a delicate product has to be preserved and shipped and in the process going through potentially different environmental conditions.  I want to be very careful here because a number of companies and individuals are trying to get this balance right in providing buffalo mozzarella to the US market and I am not in the business of criticizing anothers efforts.  But in does appear that some product shipped from Italy has been frozen and I think it is fair to say that this process has a detrimental effect on the quality of the mozz.  I think there is also, in some cases, higher amounts of salt and preservatives used in the exported variety to maintain a longer shelf life.  If you taste the packing solution in some cases this can be very noticeable.  So in some cases does the acidity and salt content enhance or mask the natural flavor of the mozz?

Bufalatte is attempting to bring bufala di mozzarella to our customers in a different way.  We purchase frozen curd from some of the top DOP producers in Campania, ship it to the USA and then make fresh mozz in the USA with the intention of getting it into the hands of our customers within days of production.  The Italians have long used the technique for freezing curd in order to balance out the seasonal demand for bufala with the natural production of the milk.

It is early days for us but we are starting deliveries in Florida and the metro Washington DC area and are lining up Dallas and Southern California so be patient with us.  This has been a big challenge and we are excited to get this going.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #771 on: October 29, 2011, 09:29:38 PM »
Washington DC?  Incredible!  That just so happens to be where I am currently hanging my hat!  I will hopefully be able to purchase your product very soon.

I have been fortunate enough to have tried ricotta di bufala, and as mentioned it is exceptional.  For the time being, however, I make my own ricotta.  I receive a weekly supply of raw, unpasteurized milk from which I can do some pretty wonderful things.

Grazie Omid and Signor Eberle!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #772 on: October 29, 2011, 09:36:44 PM »
Hello All
Thank you for the introduction to this thread. . . .

Dear Bufalatte, again, welcome to this wonderful forum! I sincerely thank you for your prompt response. I'm sure your presence will be appreciated here. Please, keep us posted as to when your products will be available in Southern California and elsewhere. Have a great weekend!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 09:58:46 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
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Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #773 on: October 30, 2011, 02:28:14 AM »
Omid, I now know I have something in common with another member , the love of Flamenco.  Tienes Duende!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #774 on: October 30, 2011, 04:45:49 AM »
Omid, I now know I have something in common with another member , the love of Flamenco.  Tienes Duende!

Thank you, but I don't think I have reached the state of being, known as "Duende". I wished!
Truly, Italy and Spain have so much to offer: Pizza Napoletana (e Opera Italiana) and Flamenco (y Paella), the best of the two worlds! Once upon a time, I tried to fuse Pizza Napoletana and Paella (i.e., seafood Paella with chorizo) together. (I got the idea after I noticed Franco Manca pizzeria in England uses Spanish chorizo on their pizzas.) Instead of rice, I used pasta that was shaped like rice. I noticed that saffron and melted fior di latte (along with clams and mussels) go together so well. I need to go back and improve the recipe. Good day!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 08:13:44 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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