Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 350302 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #840 on: November 12, 2011, 08:19:48 PM »
Dear friends, I thought I share with you some of the pictures that my wife emailed me earlier today from Naples, Italy. Unfortunately, she did not make any specifications in regard to the pictures. Good night!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 01:35:06 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #841 on: November 12, 2011, 08:20:47 PM »
Continued . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #842 on: November 13, 2011, 01:34:36 AM »
The "San Diego Home/Garden" has awarded the "2011 Silver Fork Award" to Pizzeria Bruno Napoletano for being the best pizzeria in my hometown (San Diego). Congratulations to pizzaiolo Peter!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 01:37:41 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #843 on: November 13, 2011, 07:02:49 AM »
Omid! Your wife went to Naples without you?

John

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #844 on: November 13, 2011, 12:15:29 PM »
Nice pictures!

Is that blood orange juice with that coffee? At least on this cell phone the juice has enough of a rose tint to indicate it may be. In Italy I drank so much Campari with a splash of blood orange juice it's almost embarrassing.

Thanks for sharing the excellent photos. -k
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #845 on: November 14, 2011, 07:24:39 AM »
It has been said that only a handful of pizzerias in Naples, such as Da Michele and Salvo, use lievito madre. Good night!

I am not sure who reported on that, but both do not use Lievito Madre or as we call it "Crisceto". Both do indeed use very long fermentation, at room temperature, with a very hydrated dough.

There are few other pizzeria in Naples still using Crisceto with varying results, and therefore not worth even mentioning. With little modesty, I can say with confidence that right now the best example of a wild yeast dough in a commercial setting, can be found at the three Franco Manca branch in London, and still that would not be the very best dough that I would do under my direct daily supervision.

regards,

Marco

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #846 on: November 14, 2011, 01:48:44 PM »
With little modesty, I can say with confidence that right now the best example of a wild yeast dough in a commercial setting, can be found at the three Franco Manca branch in London, and still that would not be the very best dough that I would do under my direct daily supervision.

Marco,

Good to hear from you.

I'd be curious to know what some of the challenges are in trying to use a natural leavening system in several branches of the same pizzeria. For example, in the case of Franco Manca, are all of the dough balls made in a central commissary or at the individual locations? Also, in using a natural leavening system, how do you maintain quality and consistency of the final product with multiple store locations? I mention these questions since Peter Taylor is trying to do something similar but with a different dough formulation.

Peter

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #847 on: November 15, 2011, 12:36:58 AM »
Is that blood orange juice with that coffee?

Dear Pizzablogger, unfortunately my wife did not specify what kind of beverage it was. It is an alluring picture thought! Good night.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #848 on: November 15, 2011, 12:37:15 AM »
Omid! Your wife went to Naples without you?

John

Dear John, yes, without me . . .
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #849 on: November 15, 2011, 12:37:28 AM »
I am not sure who reported on that, but both do not use Lievito Madre or as we call it "Crisceto". Both do indeed use very long fermentation, at room temperature, with a very hydrated dough.

regards,
Marco


Dear Marco, first allow me to welcome you back to this forum! Since I joined this forum on 5/4/2011, I have often heard about your reverence and extensive knowldege in respect to the Neapolitan pizza and its antiquity. I hope you are here to stay, as your presence here can be of benefaction to those of us who aspire to pursue and absorb the ancient art. As the traditional cuisine of every ethnicity is inextricably intertwined with the culture that cultivated it, I often feel what we are missing in this forum is a cultural perspective on the art—a perspective that would also import the art's values and significations.

In regard to your above-referenced concern, I know of certain web sites and blogs which have disclosed, either erroneously or factually, that Anitca Pizzeria Da Michele employs "lievito madre" or "crisceto" (two terms that I also treat as identical, although some do not). In his interview of Sep. 18, 2003 with "I Viaggi di Repubblica", Mr. Francesco Condurro of Da Michele claimed:

Quote
Noi facciamo ancora la pizza con il cosiddetto "crìscito", vale a dire con la pasta fatta il giorno precedente alla cottura, che lievita naturalmente.
(Source: http://damichele.net/pdf/g.vreppublica.pdf)

Google Translation:
We still do pizza with the so-called "criscito", i.e., with the pasta the day before cooking, that leavens naturally.


Furthermore, in 2010, journalist Monica Piscitelli also interviewed Mr. Condurro on behalf of "Luciano Pignataro Wine Blog" (http://www.lucianopignataro.it/). Per the article she published on Nov. 10, 2010 on the blog:

Quote
A raccontarmi la storia della pizzeria "Da Michele", è il dottore Francesco Condurro. . . . Eppure la pizza, fatta con il lievito madre, è sempre filologicamente la stessa di sempre, piaccia o non piaccia: di monacale semplicità.
(Source: http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/pizzeria-da-michele-margherita-o-marinara-dal-1870/17112/)

The Blog's own English translation:
Francesco Condurro, who is a "professional accountant-pizza maker", told me the story of the pizzeria "Da Michele". . . . They [pizzas] are made with mother yeast and the taste is still the one of the past.
(Source: http://www.lucianopignataro.com/articolo.php?pl=4458)
(About Monica Piscitelli: http://campaniachevai.blogspot.com/p/monica-piscitelli_04.html)


Of course, as a cautionary measure, one should ask: How is the the concept "lievito madre" or "crisceto" construed by Mr. Condurro? And, what is the application of it: the "old dough" or "mother dough" procedure, or else? At last, the descriptive accuracy of the journals themselves can be questioned. By the way, have you viewed the popular Da Michele video on Youtube (
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pxmIFz5914)?" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pxmIFz5914)?</a>
In the video, Mr. Condurro makes certain references in regard to use of lievito madre and lievito di birra.

In regard to your assertions (i.e., ". . . both do not use Lievito Madre or as we call it 'Crisceto'. Both do indeed use very long fermentation, at room temperature, with a very hydrated dough."), could you please elaborate on them. What fermentative agent or agents do they employ for the sake of long fermentation, and how do they apply it or them to enoculate their doughs? I thank you in advance.

I was supposed to be in Naples right now; however, I could not make it since I could not find my passport. (My wife, along with her friend, left without me! Of course, they are more interested in Salvatore Ferragamo or Manolo Blahnik than pizzas of Naples.) I would have enjoyed meeting you there. Again, welcome back, and have a great day!

Respectfully,
Omid
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 03:18:14 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #850 on: November 15, 2011, 10:08:01 AM »
Omid,

Thank you so much for the article!  One of the things I found so interesting was this:

"Solo dopo la scoperta dell'America si cominciò a utilizzare il pomodoro."

My head is spinning... and my mouth watering... we leave for France and Italy in 7 days!

Salvatore

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #851 on: November 15, 2011, 12:26:23 PM »
Marco,

Good to hear from you.

I'd be curious to know what some of the challenges are in trying to use a natural leavening system in several branches of the same pizzeria. For example, in the case of Franco Manca, are all of the dough balls made in a central commissary or at the individual locations? Also, in using a natural leavening system, how do you maintain quality and consistency of the final product with multiple store locations? I mention these questions since Peter Taylor is trying to do something similar but with a different dough formulation.

Peter

Hi Pete,

They have many challenges and the dough is produced ad each single location. I have designed the so called "recipe" as well as the methodology to follow for them. So they deal with it the way I told them to, and obviously I cannot discuss it and this is one of the reasons I do not actively participate to forum such this one, in addition to the fact that things I said in the past got taken either too literally and/or misinterpreted and now there are many commercial pizza operations that are managed the same way one would do with an home recipe/methodology.. O worst, home baker “consulting” commercial places..

Ciao,

Marco

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #852 on: November 15, 2011, 12:33:14 PM »
Dear Marco, first allow me to welcome you, with enthusiasm, back to this forum! Since I joined this forum on 5/4/2011, I have often heard about your reverence and extensive knowldege in respect to the Neapolitan pizza and its antiquity. I hope you are here to stay, as your presence here can be of benefaction to those of us who with deference aspire to pursue and absorb this ancient art. As the traditional cuisine of every ethnicity is inextricably intertwined with the culture that cultivated it, I often feel what we are missing in this forum is a cultural perspective on the art—a perspective that would also import the art's values and significations.

In regard to your above-referenced concern, I know of certain web sites and blogs which have disclosed, either erroneously or factually, that Anitca Pizzeria Da Michele employ "lievito madre" or "crisceto" (two terms that I also treat as identical, although some do not). In his interview of Sep. 18, 2003 with "I Viaggi di Repubblica", Mr. Francesco Condurro of Da Michele claimed:

Furthermore, in 2010, journalist Monica Piscitelli also interviewed Mr. Condurro on behalf of "Luciano Pignataro Wine Blog" (http://www.lucianopignataro.it/). Per the article she published on Nov. 10, 2010 on the blog:

Of course, as a cautionary measure, one should ask: How is the the concept "lievito madre" or "crisceto" construed by Mr. Condurro? And, what is the application of it: the "old dough" or "mother dough" procedure, or else? At last, the descriptive accuracy of the journals themselves can be questioned. By the way, have you viewed the popular Da Michele video on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pxmIFz5914)? In the video, I believe Mr. Condurro makes certain references in regard to use of lievito madre and lievito di birra.

In regard to your assertions (i.e., ". . . both do not use Lievito Madre or as we call it 'Crisceto'. Both do indeed use very long fermentation, at room temperature, with a very hydrated dough."), could you please elaborate on them. What fermentative agent or agents do they employ for the sake of long fermentation, and how do they apply it or them to enoculate their doughs? I thank you in advance.

I was supposed to be in Naples right now; however, I could not make it since I could not find my passport. (My wife, along with her friend, left without me! Of course, they are more interested in Salvatore Ferragamo or Manolo Blahnik than pizzas of Naples.) I would have enjoyed meeting you there. Again, welcome back, and have a great day!

Respectfully,
Omid


Hi,

they use lievito di birra fresco or fresh brewer yeast, as they call it, which is just fresh commercial yeast.

The article you have posted clearly demonstrated that they "play" with the understanding of the general public, as he basically says: "we still make the dough using "Crisceto", I mean making the dough the day before service", wihch is not like  using a natural culture.. However one of the things I explored in the work for my unpublished book, with the help of a researcher at the University of Naples, is how the dough made in certain pizzeria differes from others, in small but very important details.

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #853 on: November 15, 2011, 11:23:49 PM »
Welcome back Marco!  When do you think you will publish your book?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #854 on: November 16, 2011, 05:38:35 AM »
Welcome back Marco!  When do you think you will publish your book?

Not at any time soon :-). The publication will be linked to a bigger and for me more important occasion, which is probably still 5-7 years away. It will also be an heavier edited version with the scope to explore pizza napoletana as a phylosophy and less of a technical manual. For that people better hire a proper consultant ;-p

regards

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #855 on: November 16, 2011, 06:27:41 AM »
Dear friends, attached hereunder are links to some recent videos (except the very last one) on Da Michele and Franco Manca. Good day!

•Da Michele:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKds9Mz64lc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKds9Mz64lc</a>

•Franco Manca:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlrbVQbhoIc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlrbVQbhoIc</a>

•Da Michele:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_2UkgVW3zI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_2UkgVW3zI</a>

•Franco Manca:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26rDbDvOGj4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26rDbDvOGj4</a>
(Take notice of the hand gesture/signal of the pizzaiolo!)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 06:31:43 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #856 on: November 16, 2011, 07:37:03 AM »
Signor Marco,

It is exciting to see your "voice" once again on these pages. I have read and studied so much of your writing, and sincerely hope you will continue to add your wisdom. I think we all look forward to your book... regardless the wait!

Grazie tante,
Salvatore

Offline Tman1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #857 on: November 16, 2011, 09:10:54 AM »
In the last video, he puts something under the rim of the pie, just before it goes into the oven...?
Is the hand gesture you refer to used to 'hold' the pizza from being taken by placing his hand flat on the peel for a moment?

Very cool vid's.... I could watch this stuff for hours...

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #858 on: November 16, 2011, 11:18:08 AM »
In the last video, he puts something under the rim of the pie, just before it goes into the oven...?
Looks like he put a bit of flour under it because he thought it might stick to the peel. Watching the video at 1:09 you can see how hydrated the dough is.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #859 on: November 16, 2011, 02:25:03 PM »
Looks like he put a bit of flour under it because he thought it might stick to the peel. Watching the video at 1:09 you can see how hydrated the dough is.

I'd be curious to know. It doesn't look much, if any, different from mine at 60%.
Pizza is not bread.