Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 501760 times)

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Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #850 on: November 15, 2011, 10:08:01 AM »
Omid,

Thank you so much for the article!  One of the things I found so interesting was this:

"Solo dopo la scoperta dell'America si cominciò a utilizzare il pomodoro."

My head is spinning... and my mouth watering... we leave for France and Italy in 7 days!

Salvatore


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #851 on: November 15, 2011, 12:26:23 PM »
Marco,

Good to hear from you.

I'd be curious to know what some of the challenges are in trying to use a natural leavening system in several branches of the same pizzeria. For example, in the case of Franco Manca, are all of the dough balls made in a central commissary or at the individual locations? Also, in using a natural leavening system, how do you maintain quality and consistency of the final product with multiple store locations? I mention these questions since Peter Taylor is trying to do something similar but with a different dough formulation.

Peter

Hi Pete,

They have many challenges and the dough is produced ad each single location. I have designed the so called "recipe" as well as the methodology to follow for them. So they deal with it the way I told them to, and obviously I cannot discuss it and this is one of the reasons I do not actively participate to forum such this one, in addition to the fact that things I said in the past got taken either too literally and/or misinterpreted and now there are many commercial pizza operations that are managed the same way one would do with an home recipe/methodology.. O worst, home baker “consulting” commercial places..

Ciao,

Marco

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #852 on: November 15, 2011, 12:33:14 PM »
Dear Marco, first allow me to welcome you, with enthusiasm, back to this forum! Since I joined this forum on 5/4/2011, I have often heard about your reverence and extensive knowldege in respect to the Neapolitan pizza and its antiquity. I hope you are here to stay, as your presence here can be of benefaction to those of us who with deference aspire to pursue and absorb this ancient art. As the traditional cuisine of every ethnicity is inextricably intertwined with the culture that cultivated it, I often feel what we are missing in this forum is a cultural perspective on the art—a perspective that would also import the art's values and significations.

In regard to your above-referenced concern, I know of certain web sites and blogs which have disclosed, either erroneously or factually, that Anitca Pizzeria Da Michele employ "lievito madre" or "crisceto" (two terms that I also treat as identical, although some do not). In his interview of Sep. 18, 2003 with "I Viaggi di Repubblica", Mr. Francesco Condurro of Da Michele claimed:

Furthermore, in 2010, journalist Monica Piscitelli also interviewed Mr. Condurro on behalf of "Luciano Pignataro Wine Blog" (http://www.lucianopignataro.it/). Per the article she published on Nov. 10, 2010 on the blog:

Of course, as a cautionary measure, one should ask: How is the the concept "lievito madre" or "crisceto" construed by Mr. Condurro? And, what is the application of it: the "old dough" or "mother dough" procedure, or else? At last, the descriptive accuracy of the journals themselves can be questioned. By the way, have you viewed the popular Da Michele video on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pxmIFz5914)? In the video, I believe Mr. Condurro makes certain references in regard to use of lievito madre and lievito di birra.

In regard to your assertions (i.e., ". . . both do not use Lievito Madre or as we call it 'Crisceto'. Both do indeed use very long fermentation, at room temperature, with a very hydrated dough."), could you please elaborate on them. What fermentative agent or agents do they employ for the sake of long fermentation, and how do they apply it or them to enoculate their doughs? I thank you in advance.

I was supposed to be in Naples right now; however, I could not make it since I could not find my passport. (My wife, along with her friend, left without me! Of course, they are more interested in Salvatore Ferragamo or Manolo Blahnik than pizzas of Naples.) I would have enjoyed meeting you there. Again, welcome back, and have a great day!

Respectfully,
Omid

Hi,

they use lievito di birra fresco or fresh brewer yeast, as they call it, which is just fresh commercial yeast.

The article you have posted clearly demonstrated that they "play" with the understanding of the general public, as he basically says: "we still make the dough using "Crisceto", I mean making the dough the day before service", wihch is not like  using a natural culture.. However one of the things I explored in the work for my unpublished book, with the help of a researcher at the University of Naples, is how the dough made in certain pizzeria differes from others, in small but very important details.

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #853 on: November 15, 2011, 11:23:49 PM »
Welcome back Marco!  When do you think you will publish your book?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #854 on: November 16, 2011, 05:38:35 AM »
Welcome back Marco!  When do you think you will publish your book?

Not at any time soon :-). The publication will be linked to a bigger and for me more important occasion, which is probably still 5-7 years away. It will also be an heavier edited version with the scope to explore pizza napoletana as a phylosophy and less of a technical manual. For that people better hire a proper consultant ;-p

regards

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #855 on: November 16, 2011, 06:27:41 AM »
Dear friends, attached hereunder are links to some recent videos (except the very last one) on Da Michele and Franco Manca. Good day!

•Da Michele:
•Franco Manca:
•Da Michele:
•Franco Manca: (Take notice of the hand gesture/signal of the pizzaiolo!)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 06:31:43 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #856 on: November 16, 2011, 07:37:03 AM »
Signor Marco,

It is exciting to see your "voice" once again on these pages. I have read and studied so much of your writing, and sincerely hope you will continue to add your wisdom. I think we all look forward to your book... regardless the wait!

Grazie tante,
Salvatore

Offline Tman1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #857 on: November 16, 2011, 09:10:54 AM »
In the last video, he puts something under the rim of the pie, just before it goes into the oven...?
Is the hand gesture you refer to used to 'hold' the pizza from being taken by placing his hand flat on the peel for a moment?

Very cool vid's.... I could watch this stuff for hours...

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #858 on: November 16, 2011, 11:18:08 AM »
In the last video, he puts something under the rim of the pie, just before it goes into the oven...?
Looks like he put a bit of flour under it because he thought it might stick to the peel. Watching the video at 1:09 you can see how hydrated the dough is.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #859 on: November 16, 2011, 02:25:03 PM »
Looks like he put a bit of flour under it because he thought it might stick to the peel. Watching the video at 1:09 you can see how hydrated the dough is.

I'd be curious to know. It doesn't look much, if any, different from mine at 60%.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #860 on: November 16, 2011, 04:28:34 PM »
Maybe it's just me but when he's pulling the dough balls out of the box the way they are sticking to each other makes it look really wet. Our elevations are different too so that plays into it also, Houston is at 45ft, Boston is at 2500ft. But London's elevation is closer to yours so maybe you're right. Also he doesn't really have to do many slaps to open the ball(couple spins and 1 slap and its open) but that can also be because of how well made/developed the dough is.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #861 on: November 16, 2011, 04:42:47 PM »
Boston, MA is 2500ft. Are you sure about that?

Actually, I live at 21ft. I'm still waiting for the global warming Al Gore keeps promising. He says the sea level will go up 20ft. That will put my house on the beach!  :-D

CL
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #862 on: November 16, 2011, 04:43:03 PM »
I didn't realize how serious I was. . . .

Matt

Is the hand gesture you refer to used to 'hold' the pizza from being taken by placing his hand flat on the peel for a moment?

Dear Tman:

In Naples, in my experience, it is not an uncommon phenomenon to see pizzaioli utilizing hand gestures or body-language as a mode of silent communication. Some of these signals can be subtle, hard to be detected by onlookers. I clearly remember when I was at Degli Angioini (pizzeria e osteria) in Naples, the pizzaiolo and fornaio communicated with one another mostly via eye contacts, head nods, and hand signals during the rush time—as though they were in a state of trance. They were!

Moreover, it is not rare for Neapolitan pizzaioli to put on a solemn face, behaving themselves with a spirit of seriousness. The Franco Manca pizzaiolo in the last video of my previous post above () can perchance serve as an example: no smily and jolly face! Perhaps, the speechless communication and the aura of impassioned intensity are parts of the mystique of the Neapolitan tradition, as they are in the flamenco tradition:






Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 03:38:39 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline pizza dr

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #863 on: November 16, 2011, 04:59:49 PM »
The omnipotent and all knowing entity that is GOOGLE states that Boston MA is at about 140 ft.  That seems about right I guess  8)

That being said... what changes do you guys suppose we folks at higher elevation need to consider????  I'm at about 4000, Chau is at about 5000 and Bill in SF is at about 7000 but could easily be at 8000 depending on where he lives.

Curious to know what specifically you would want to be aware of at higher elevation.  One thing I've noticed ( not sure this is related to elevation or not) is that I typically need to up my hydration a few clicks to get the same looking dough that I see on these threads.  We are pretty dry here most of the year. 

Scot


Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #864 on: November 16, 2011, 06:54:47 PM »
Boston, MA is 2500ft. Are you sure about that?

Actually, I live at 21ft. I'm still waiting for the global warming Al Gore keeps promising. He says the sea level will go up 20ft. That will put my house on the beach!  :-D

CL
Lol sorry idk where I got that from. It says 19ft on wiki.

The omnipotent and all knowing entity that is GOOGLE states that Boston MA is at about 140 ft.  That seems about right I guess  8)

That being said... what changes do you guys suppose we folks at higher elevation need to consider????  I'm at about 4000, Chau is at about 5000 and Bill in SF is at about 7000 but could easily be at 8000 depending on where he lives.

Curious to know what specifically you would want to be aware of at higher elevation.  One thing I've noticed ( not sure this is related to elevation or not) is that I typically need to up my hydration a few clicks to get the same looking dough that I see on these threads.  We are pretty dry here most of the year. 

Scot



That's why I think the dough is little more hydrated than most neapolitan dough made commercially. I'll look at dough on here sometimes and it's like 66%+ and look like dough at 60% here. Then I think if I made a 66%+ dough here (unless its for pizza in teglio) it would be really unmanageable.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:27:47 PM by BrickStoneOven »

Offline flyboy4ual

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #865 on: November 16, 2011, 07:28:13 PM »
I fly into Boston all the time. I am pretty sure the airport is at 19 feet in Boston.  If it was at 2500 feet my flights could get pretty dicey!

Scott D.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #866 on: November 16, 2011, 10:43:17 PM »
I have good news for the Santos enthusiats! . . .

Recently, I sent a message to the Santos representative (Mr. Nicolas Fouquet) in France, asking him, "Are your engineers still working on reducing the fork speed of 'Santos Fork Mixer'?" Today, he replied:  

"We will try and beat Master Omid with a perfect solution... can't say no more..."
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:04:17 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #867 on: November 17, 2011, 03:14:26 AM »
Omid, I agree, the mood, the feeling behind the art of pizza.... it is a crescendo just like the art, the  feeling of flamenco, and it's many compases.... temperamental (dough, environment) Ole!  As to the Santos, thanks for your diligence!!  Saludos! 

Offline napoletana4germany

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #868 on: November 17, 2011, 05:28:44 AM »
Hi,

they use lievito di birra fresco or fresh brewer yeast, as they call it, which is just fresh commercial yeast.

The article you have posted clearly demonstrated that they "play" with the understanding of the general public, as he basically says: "we still make the dough using "Crisceto", I mean making the dough the day before service", wihch is not like  using a natural culture.. However one of the things I explored in the work for my unpublished book, with the help of a researcher at the University of Naples, is how the dough made in certain pizzeria differes from others, in small but very important details.


hello everyone,

I try to summarize what Marco Parente (pizzanapoletana) just said
concerning the main possibilities of fermenting dough

pure fermentation:
1: pure sourdough starter (aka Crisceto)
2: pure baker's yeast

pure fermentation with old dough support:
3: sourdough with support of old dough (dough balls of "the day before service")
4: baker's yeast with support of old dough

mixed fermentation:
5: "half" sourdough / "half" baker's yeast
6: mainly sourdough with support of baker's yeast
7: mainly baker's yeast with support of sourdough (if useful at all?!)

these kind of basic doughs can be made/fermented:
- with or without using poolish, biga or autolyse
- in the fridge or under room temperature
- with a briefer or longer fermentation
depending on the amount of ferment and the temperatures in the fridge or you work environment.

I hope I'll get it right...  8)
what do you (guys) think about this classification?
are these the main ways of fermenting pizza dough or was something important omitted?

what I am very curious about is how Franco Manca is fermenting pure sourdough in London, nothern Central Europe.
(Jeff Varasano wrote on his blog he ferments sourdough in the fridge. I tried several times in the past, it never really worked.)
is it generally possible to ferment natural sourdough under low temperatures like 6°C / 43°F ?!?
if you don't mind my asking - Marco - I really like to know if you use something like room* tempered fermenting chambers?
* 23°C (about 73.4 °F)

best regards,
Todi

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #869 on: November 17, 2011, 04:56:23 PM »
Below are a couple of interesting videos showing pizzaiolo Gaetano Fazio at work in his pizzeria in Ischia. He was, perhaps still is, one of the instructors at Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana in Naples. A couple of Americans who had taken instructions from him described him to me as a "nurturing" and "humble" human being, besides being an adept pizzaiolo. Watch his hands!


Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #870 on: November 17, 2011, 05:14:02 PM »
Omid - I just love the videos you have been posting. The Gaetano Fazio ones are particularly interesting due to seeing long stretches of workflow and skin management. I also really got a good sense of the calzone technique, which was very enlightening.

It seems nearly every pizzeria in Naples uses grated cheese. Funny, I have never used it. Are they using percorino romano, or some other cheese specific to the region?

John

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #871 on: November 17, 2011, 09:04:36 PM »
Omid - I just love the videos you have been posting. The Gaetano Fazio ones are particularly interesting due to seeing long stretches of workflow and skin management. I also really got a good sense of the calzone technique, which was very enlightening. It seems nearly every pizzeria in Naples uses grated cheese. Funny, I have never used it. Are they using percorino romano, or some other cheese specific to the region?

John

Dear John, I do not know what type of pecorino or else they use. I asked my wife to check out the pizzeria if possible. We shall see! Good night.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #872 on: November 17, 2011, 09:05:13 PM »
Today, my wife informed me about controversial debates that have been taking place on the Italian TV about the use of "lievito madre" and "lievito di birra" in making pizza. (Her friend, who majors in Italian language, translated the debate for her.) I did some research on the net and found out for myself that indeed some interesting pizza developments seem to be taking place in Naples and other Italian cities. Back in May of this year, a seminar under the title "Pizza di oggi, gusto di ieri" ("Pizza today, a taste of yesterday") was held at the Università della Pizza a Napoli to discuss a number of important issues in respect to the past and future of Neapolitan pizza. According to an article by "Campania Su Web":

"A seminar was held in Naples by 'Pizza Up', enlivening the occasion by a fascinating comparison between Gino Sorbillo and Renato Bosco, the 'old and new' pizza. During the seminar, it was asked if the pizza can return to have the tastes and scents of the past, that its future may be a return to basics, and if the technique of the lievito madre can contribute to this goal. The discussion included Enzo Coccia and Massimo Di Porzio, who considered a number of technical reasons that prevent Neapolitan pizza to go back to using lievito madre. However, part of the tradition known as 'Criscito', as pointed out by professor Antonio Mattozzi, explains the practical reasons which led to abandoning it." (Google Translate was used to translate and abridge the article.)

You can check out the entire article and parts of the debate captured on video at the following links:

• Article: http://www.campaniasuweb.it/story/pizza-di-oggi-gusto-di-ieri
• Video:
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:55:13 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #873 on: November 17, 2011, 09:55:47 PM »
Omid,

Thank you so much.  The videos are fantastic... Signor Fazio has such a gentle caress.  It is interesting comparing his technique with that of Gino Sorbillo.  Different demeanor, different attitude.  Whereas Gino Sorbillo seems to "attack" the dough, forcing it to do his will, Gaetano Fazio appears more to "ask" the dough to do what he wants!  I don't think either is better than the other, simply different.  They are both great to watch. 

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #874 on: November 17, 2011, 09:57:08 PM »
Thank you for the article as well... great practice for my Italian right before trip next week!