Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 171068 times)

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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #880 on: November 18, 2011, 08:23:05 AM »

hello everyone,

I try to summarize what Marco Parente (pizzanapoletana) just said
concerning the main possibilities of fermenting dough

pure fermentation:
1: pure sourdough starter (aka Crisceto)
2: pure baker's yeast

pure fermentation with old dough support:
3: sourdough with support of old dough (dough balls of "the day before service")
4: baker's yeast with support of old dough

mixed fermentation:
5: "half" sourdough / "half" baker's yeast
6: mainly sourdough with support of baker's yeast
7: mainly baker's yeast with support of sourdough (if useful at all?!)

these kind of basic doughs can be made/fermented:
- with or without using poolish, biga or autolyse
- in the fridge or under room temperature
- with a briefer or longer fermentation
depending on the amount of ferment and the temperatures in the fridge or you work environment.

I hope I'll get it right...  8)
what do you (guys) think about this classification?
are these the main ways of fermenting pizza dough or was something important omitted?

what I am very curious about is how Franco Manca is fermenting pure sourdough in London, nothern Central Europe.
(Jeff Varasano wrote on his blog he ferments sourdough in the fridge. I tried several times in the past, it never really worked.)
is it generally possible to ferment natural sourdough under low temperatures like 6°C / 43°F ?!?
if you don't mind my asking - Marco - I really like to know if you use something like room* tempered fermenting chambers?
* 23°C (about 73.4 °F)

best regards,
Todi

Hi Todi,

But I would not summarise any of my arguments as you did above. More importantly, Pizza dough should not be done with a preferment (either biga or poolish or large batches to old dough (comparable to biga) etc...  I have said this many timnes but because people keep re-calling part of my discussions out of context, there are so many misunderstanding on this forum that I read from time to time.


Let me also drop you another bombshell: I have read in this forum in the recent past, about "such oven being the best Neapolitan" option for the OP scope (even thought simply by studying all options one will find out that that oven may have a different dome shape-more pointy- that the claimed many generations of tradition can only be found with some ovens made at the end of 1980's, whilst Naples is full of ovens standing and in operation since the 1930-1950 made by others..., but this is another story ;-) specifically because they used gas and the pizza cooked well.... The real Neapolitan oven is not designed to be used without the coal and the fire combination of using wood... Gas only will not produce the right floor strength and that is a fact.  If a pizza is moved all over the place to achieve cooking, well the oven is not good! The oven needs to cook for you not the way around... When you are in a busy restaurant you cannot afford to spend such time trying to cook one pizza at the time... some time ago I posted a link to a youtube video of cooking pizza at Franco Manca in seconds when it was only turned once... That is a good sign.

Have a good day

cornicione54

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #881 on: November 18, 2011, 09:57:22 AM »
That's weird - I could have sworn Da Michele used "old dough". Granted it might be only a small amount - but it is still the only source of leavening, correct?

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #882 on: November 18, 2011, 11:34:08 AM »
that is a very interesting video , i do not speak the language looks like they wrap old dough up and let it sit, cut away the dry and use it to leaven the fresh dough? the sample pies look weak. can anyone help with the method?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #883 on: November 18, 2011, 11:57:15 AM »
That's weird - I could have sworn Da Michele used "old dough". Granted it might be only a small amount - but it is still the only source of leavening, correct?

I am not sure what part was not clear of "they use fresh brewer yeast" in low quantities, no old dough ;-0

I have been with them three days doing a sort of master stage back in the days, so I know what I am talking about. I consider Don Luigi one of my true Maestro, a person with whom I could talk for hours.

regards,


Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #884 on: November 18, 2011, 12:11:57 PM »
 in the video there is dough wrapped in a cloth they unwrap it,cut the crust off and it looks like they add it to the dough water.  i would like to know what enzo coccia was commenting on. i also tried to follow the flour mfg web site.their translation was that it was fresh yeast raised dough at level 3 whatever that may be.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 12:22:59 PM by thezaman »

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #885 on: November 18, 2011, 03:00:59 PM »
I believe the first point Enzo Coccia makes is that the lievito madre was eliminated in Napoli because they didn't have the time to use it in the construction of pizza.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #886 on: November 18, 2011, 03:33:09 PM »
The second part of his dialogue is much harder for me to understand.  I can read, speak, and write much better than I can listen... especially a youtube video! 

I have an idea what he's saying, but don't want to misquote him if someone else here perhaps has a better grasp.

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #887 on: November 18, 2011, 03:53:07 PM »
Salvatore,  thank you for your response. i can see where it would take a lot more time to produce dough using that method

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #888 on: November 18, 2011, 04:25:18 PM »
And remember, pizza was essentially "street" food, meant to be eaten standing as much as sitting.  Hence the "portofoglio."

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #889 on: November 18, 2011, 05:26:04 PM »
that is a very interesting video , i do not speak the language looks like they wrap old dough up and let it sit, cut away the dry and use it to leaven the fresh dough? the sample pies look weak. can anyone help with the method?

Dear Thezaman, I wished I could conclusively answer your question. But allow me to tell you that each region, or often vicinities within the regions, of Italy have their own distinctive culinary traditions. Unlike the United States, which is for the most part culturally homogeneous, various regions in Italy have their own peculiar customs and traditions that are often unbeknownst to one another. In fact, as an extreme example, some Neapolitans may not primarily identify themselves as Italians, meaning that to them being "Neapolitan" is of higher priority than being "Italian". They even have their own specific dialect that non-Neapolitans elsewhere in Italy do not understand. As such, the dough wrapped in the cloth in the video seems to be a Northern method of dough production, which I also had seen carried out in Germany as some kind of fermentation starter used, in an indirect method, in making dough for producing bread, not pizza. Molino Quaglia itself is a flour company from Northern Italy, i.e., Padua, close to Venice.

Not withstanding, perhaps it would not be unfair to posit that Neapolitan pizza was not born in a vacuum, that it is an aftermath of a tediously long and complex historical process, which spans over a period of 2700 years. I think it would be beneficial to have a very, very brief historical perspective on the issue. In short, history of Naples is a melting pot of so many different civilizations (Greeks, Romans, Germanics, Byzantines, Normans, Spaniards, French, Jews, Arabs, and etc.) who have left their influences on the city that once upon a time was considered a jewel of Europe.

According to historical records, Naples was probably founded by the Greeks of pre-antiquity (known as "Cumaeans") who began to colonize the area about six or seven centuries before Christ. The ancient Greek became established as the language of the region, which posteriorly brought with it the virtues of the Hellenistic culture that began with Alexander the Great as a synthesis of the Greek and Persian cultures. The colonists called the city "Parthenope" and later came to be known as "Nea-polis", meaning "New City". Later, the city was incorporated in the Roman Republic until the Germanics, i.e., the Kingdom of Ostrogoths, took over the city after the decline of the Roman Empire. Thereafter, the Byzantine Empire took over until the ducal period (the succession of dukes) commenced, whereby Naples gained its short-lived independence by about 840 A.D. Later, Naples became a kingdom as opposed to dukedom, ruled by various Neapolitan, French, and Spanish kings. For a long time (1503−1714 A.D.), Naples was a part of the Spanish Empire, whereby it became a center of arts, math, sciences, and philosophy. Throughout the period, there were intermittent attempts to emancipate Naples from the Empire and make it independent again. By 1861, Naples joined the Kingdom of Italy as part of the "Italian Unification" in order to put an end to the foreign domination. And, later on, as the story has it, the Queen of Italy—Margherita Maria Teresa Giovanna—went down to Naples to have some pizza as a gesture of solidarity with the Neapolitans!

It is notable that during the 10th century A.D., after the conquest of Malta and Sicily (which became the Emirate of Sicily) by the Moslem Arabs, many Islamic influences poured into Naples, which had made alliances with the Arabs in order to ward off the hostilities from the North. (The first Islamic attack on Sicily occurred in 652 A.D., and they were intermittently repeated until the eventual conquest which led to a long period of occupation by the Arabs (roughly 827-1091 A.D.). At last, Sephardic Jews have been in Naples (taken there by the Romans) since the 1st Century A.D. until present.

Verily, Naples has a very rich history, not divorced from its culinary tradition. Perchance, it would be audacious not to take the historical process into account in understanding the origins and evolution of the beloved pizza of Naples.

Good day!
Omid
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:25:42 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #890 on: November 18, 2011, 09:40:45 PM »
 we look at the pizza of Naples as a very special pizza type which has become popular in the u.s. probably because of the vpn marketing and of course because it is a great product.in Naples it is a staple and the quantities they sell out of their stores are probably staggering.  the pricing is very low so their profit margins are a lot lower than what we can sell that product for here in the u.s. a 12.00 margherita is acceptable here. in Italy 5 to 6 euros is average. i can see why the pizzeria owners want to crank out as much product as they can.messing with slow rising dough is not a real profitable alternative. here we have to market our pizza as something special so a sour starter or slow rising old dough formula can be a marketing tool.
 then their is our group who love to experiment with methods trying to come up with the perfect Neapolitan style pizza.so please ,i want to know what they are doing in the video when they cut out the center of the dough wrapped in a towel.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #891 on: November 19, 2011, 01:07:20 AM »
I was so intrigued by Signor Coccia, I started searching a bit.  This came up, and I found both the video and the comments posted at the bottom of the page very intriguing... especially those made by Signor Coccia and Signor Marco Parente!

http://blog.paperogiallo.net/2010/12/lievitazione_lunga_migliore_qualita.html

Ciao,
Salvatore
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 01:09:23 AM by salvatoregianpaolo »

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #892 on: November 19, 2011, 10:44:21 AM »
  if the translation is close Enzo Coccia says he can use 1 gram of yeast with a liter of water and approx 1.8 kilograms of flour that is 55 % hydration and get leavening in 5 hours at summer temperature of 24 degrees Celsius or 75 degrees F. winter 10 C/ 50 F takes 12 hours. also other factors are required. others talk about yeast being hard to digest,Marco goes into that i think. looks like they also talk about a widow of use before the dough is no longer any good. can anyone elaborate on the debate?

Offline satgan

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #893 on: November 19, 2011, 11:53:53 AM »
i want to know what they are doing in the video when they cut out the center of the dough wrapped in a towel.

Larry that is pasta madre stif sourdough starter, see this page http://www.cookaround.com/yabbse1/showthread.php?t=58515&page=1

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #894 on: November 19, 2011, 02:03:21 PM »
that is a very interesting video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdAWcUEqNqg], i do not speak the language looks like they wrap old dough up and let it sit, cut away the dry and use it to leaven the fresh dough? the sample pies look weak. can anyone help with the method?


Larry that is pasta madre stif sourdough starter, see this page http://www.cookaround.com/yabbse1/showthread.php?t=58515&page=1


Apparently, the cotton cloth wrapped around the dough is a way of maintaining the sourdough culture, a "stiff" one as dear Satgan mentioned above. According to Luciano Pignataro Wine Blog (translated by Google Translate):

"The conservation of criscito [sourdough starter] is possible in water (the method called 'piemontese'), or at room temperature (wrapped in cloth or placed in glass bowls), or in the refrigerator. . . ." (http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/lievito-madre-in-italia-non-si-parla-daltro-come-fare-e-gestire-il-lievito-madre-a-casa/22126/)

Besides the informative website provided by dear Satgan, here is another Italian website that provides instructions, which can be translated by using Google Translate: http://www.gennarino.org/lievitonaturale.htm

This method reminds me of an Iranian bread that is prepared by first mixing and kneading water, flour, and salt only—no sourdough culture yet.  Thereafter, a cotton cloth is thoroughly soaked in and saturated with very watery sourdough starter. Then, the saturated cotton cloth is wrapped and tied around the dough, which has to rest for a very long time to proof at room temperature. They call this mode the "outside-in" fermentation, which produces bread with a peculiar texture and flavor. Good day!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:48:35 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #895 on: November 19, 2011, 03:06:46 PM »
Today's bake (using Santos, 64.5% hydration, Caputo Pizzeria flour, sourdough culture, controlled room temperature, and home gas oven):
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 07:19:27 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #896 on: November 19, 2011, 04:38:34 PM »
Here is an interesting video (and recipe) for making "crescia sul panaro", which is a peasant bread from Castelplanio, Italy. The recipe is similar to Indian "naan" (which also includes peasant yogurt) and identical to Persian "lavash" bread (which requires a bit more hydration). The recipe calls for "baking powder" (lievito in polvere) instead of autochthonous or commercial yeast. And, traditionally, round metal plates, as shown in the video, in conjunction with wood-fired or coal-fired ovens are used to bake the dough discs into very flavorful and soft flat-breads. The caption of the video includes the full recipe. Good weekend everyone!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhHejt5ULHk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhHejt5ULHk</a>
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:45:02 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #897 on: November 20, 2011, 07:24:49 AM »
Omid (Or any member) have you kept a ledger on temperature and humidity in your environment reflecting to the amount of natural starter (fully active starter of course) you use?  I completely understand that some may ferment/store their dough, but I am talking about a straight Neapolitan mix.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #898 on: November 20, 2011, 10:22:16 PM »
Dear friends, attached hereunder is a link to a recent and informative video from "Trianon Da Ciro":

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;v=4IVVwV4tcuM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&amp;v=4IVVwV4tcuM</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbij_FXxb5w" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbij_FXxb5w</a>

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:44:49 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #899 on: November 21, 2011, 05:18:58 AM »
Last night's bake (using Santos, 68% hydration, Caputo Pizzeria flour, sourdough culture, controlled room temperature, and home gas oven):
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 07:20:26 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


 



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