Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 171524 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1000 on: December 13, 2011, 12:57:25 AM »
I have made sweet terrines of dove and duck that are not all that dissimilar to the Lady's lips pizza. I have not used marzipan, but pistachios and pine nuts.

CL


I'll bet you are a hunter.  No one else would have dove to make into a terrine these days. 

Regards,

TinRoof


O for Christ's sake!—he's a Texan!

See for yourself:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15635.msg153562.html#msg153562
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16128.msg157831.html#msg157831
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16730.0.html
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1001 on: December 15, 2011, 02:16:44 AM »
According to the Italian website "Taccuini Storici" (which offers a historical approach toward Italian cuisine):

"The pizza [which the website referred to as 'gioiello napoletano' or 'Neapolitan jewel'] has ancient origins, some suggest even in the era of the Etruscans [about 500 BC]. Of course it was something that vaguely had the shape and appearance of the pizza today . . . The word [pizza] was voiced before the year one thousand, as in "pizza de pane", and it was cited by 16th-century authors as a focaccia that accompanied meat and other comestibles, may be seasoned with mostacciuoli . . . Since about mid-18th century, pizza has been cooked in wood ovens of the shops (which were often the dwellings/homes of the shop owners) and sold in open-air stalls along the narrow streets and alleys of the city [Naples]. Balanced on his head, a boy would carry a "stufa" [literally a "stove"; otherwise a cylindrical, copper, pizza box that maintained, up to a point, the temperature and moisture therein] to deliver warm pizzas to clients at their homes or to sell them in the streets while announcing himself with loud and sonorous calls."

(http://www.taccuinistorici.it/ita/news/moderna/cibo-di-strada/PIZZA--gioiello-napoletano.html)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 06:33:09 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1002 on: December 15, 2011, 04:36:33 PM »
Omid,

We have recently returned from this year's trip to France and Italy, and were fortunate enough to be able to make a day trip down to Napoli.  I now appreciate the pictures you have shown displaying the tenderness in your crust, and also realize how far I am from making what is truly Pizza Napoletana.  I guess you could say I've experienced my "Aha!" moment after eating at both da Michele and Gino Sorbillo.  The dough is so soft, so tender, so different from even the pizza I've had at well known establishments such as Keste, it really opened my eyes and my mind.  It also truly enables me understand how incredible your results are using a home oven.  Simply remarkable!

Unfortunately, I have no pictures due to the fact I don't personally take photos in restaurants where others are trying to eat.  (No offense to anyone, it's just a pet-peeve of mine.  Personal opinion.)  What I can say is I took notice of both the size of the pies (much large than I expected) and the lack of a "dramatic" and puffed up cornicione.  My wife, dragged down the wormhole of pizza-obsession with me, made the same two observations as well.  My 19 month old son, however, didn't offer any similar remarks, but rather spent the entire time stuffing his face!

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1003 on: December 15, 2011, 08:30:28 PM »
omid,
 i am looking for the book you reference Una Storia Napoletana where can i find the book?

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1004 on: December 15, 2011, 08:37:02 PM »
 
Quote
salvator,
We have recently returned from this year's trip to France and Italy, and were fortunate enough to be able to make a day trip down to Napoli.  I now appreciate the pictures you have shown displaying the tenderness in your crust, and also realize how far I am from making what is truly Pizza Napoletana.  I guess you could say I've experienced my "Aha!" moment after eating at both da Michele and Gino Sorbillo.  The dough is so soft, so tender, so different from even the pizza I've had at well known establishments such as Keste, it really opened my eyes and my mind.  It also truly enables me understand how incredible your results are using a home oven.  Simply remarkable!
 i wondered how much of a difference there was in the American version of Neapolitan pizza,looks like we have a way to go. what changes are you going to make to try to get closer to what you sampled?
  can you elaborate on the overall taste differences. cheese,tomatoes etc .thanks ,larry

Offline kiwipete

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1005 on: December 15, 2011, 09:00:51 PM »
omid,
 i am looking for the book you reference Una Storia Napoletana where can i find the book?


Not in the US (as far as I know), but in Italy:

http://www.giuntistore.it/customer/product.php?productid=12623&cat=490

On another note: in the pictures above, the pizza delivery boy on the moped with the Stufa on his head is a relative of Ciro Salvo, from pizzeria Salvo.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 09:05:02 PM by kiwipete »

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1006 on: December 15, 2011, 10:22:55 PM »
Larry,

Unfortunately I think I am at the limit of what I can accomplish with my oven set-up.  Since I am currently stuck using a gas home oven, and because I rent, I cannot make some of the modifications Omid has performed.  What he is doing is simply awesome.  Let me repeat:  AWESOME.  I have not, of course, tasted his pizza, but the pictures tell me he is achieving a level of tenderness I would otherwise think only possible with a WFO.  That is the only way I believe one can maintain a suppleness in the dough while still achieving a crisping on the edges and bottom.  I baked two pies last night, and with the first I achieved the best results thus far in regards to leoparding of both the top and bottom.  The middle of the pizza, however, was way too crispy.  With the second, I found much better results in regards to tenderness, but the crust never had a chance to even brown.  Both pies, btw, were baked in 2:15 under the broiler.  I just can't match top and bottom heat in my oven.

As for what I experienced in Napoli:

The taste of the pizza at da Michele was stunning in its simplicity.  I was blown away.  So tender, so understated, so beautiful.  Pure simplicity.  I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed the marinara.  I planned the trip well (based on some of Sig. Parenti's advice about arrival times... grazie!) and we were basically the only ones there.  It was quiet... as if we were in church... and that is the perfect image it left with me .

Gino Sorbillo... I frankly don't know where to begin.  I almost cried.  Who am I kidding?  I did cry.  Unbelievable.  If da Michele was St. Peter's Basilica, Gino Sorbillo was La Cappella Sistina. 

Offline pizza dr

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1007 on: December 15, 2011, 10:35:14 PM »
Salvatore

Wow, sounds like a great trip!  If I may... where else did you visit while you were in Europe?  Highlights?  

Funny you mention that you don't like taking pics in a restaurant... I feel exactly the same way.  My wife and I  have gone round and round on this one but her point is this ( and I think it's valid)... no one really cares that you are taking a pic of your pizza before you eat it.  I think that is correct because I could give a rats butt if someone is taking a pic of their food and I'm pretty sure the staff and/or chef/pizzaiolo cares either ( in fact it may be a compliment??? someone with some real restaurant experience chime in here)

Either way... glad you had an "ahaa" moment... Hope that translates to some good pizza (and info for us)

Scot



 

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1008 on: December 15, 2011, 11:53:29 PM »
Scot,

3 nights in Paris, 2 nights in Lyon, 1 night in Lausanne, 2 nights in Genova, 4 nights in Toscana, 1 night in Umbria, and 2 nights in Roma.  We try to go every year.  I'm slowly narrowing down where we will retire... just don't let my wife know!

Since my family is from Italia it is very dear to me, and thus my opinion is tainted.  I always have a great time there.  That being said, this was my first visit to Genova, and I was quite taken with the city.  We almost changed our plans to go there after the recent flooding, but I'm glad we didn't.  The Mercato Oriental (Oriental, or essentially "Eastern" Market) was incredible, the foccacia fabulous, and the people genuine.  I will certainly be visiting again next year.

As for pictures in restaurants, as I said, I mean no offense to those who choose to snap away.  I simply cannot allow myself to do it.  I will say this:  while we were in Da Michele, a couple walked in after we had begun eating, didn't make even the slightest attempt to speak the native language, made enough of a commotion that it drew my attention, received their pizza and proceeded to take photos of each other making all sorts of strange and funny faces with their food.  It gave me a pang of regret to witness this, especially as I looked over at Sig. Luigi Condurro, who's been at his profession for God knows how many years, watching the same spectacle.  As our eyes came in contact, I can only imagine we were thinking the same thing.

Salvatore

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1009 on: December 16, 2011, 02:22:39 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=dJYo0XkUG1k" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=dJYo0XkUG1k</a>
!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1010 on: December 16, 2011, 05:15:26 AM »
Omid,
We have recently returned from this year's trip to France and Italy, and were fortunate enough to be able to make a day trip down to Napoli.  I now appreciate the pictures you have shown displaying the tenderness in your crust, and also realize how far I am from making what is truly Pizza Napoletana.  I guess you could say I've experienced my "Aha!" moment after eating at both da Michele and Gino Sorbillo.  The dough is so soft, so tender, so different from even the pizza I've had at well known establishments such as Keste, it really opened my eyes and my mind.  It also truly enables me understand how incredible your results are using a home oven.  Simply remarkable!

Unfortunately I think I am at the limit of what I can accomplish with my oven set-up.  Since I am currently stuck using a gas home oven, and because I rent, I cannot make some of the modifications Omid has performed. What he is doing is simply awesome.  Let me repeat:  AWESOME.  I have not, of course, tasted his pizza, but the pictures tell me he is achieving a level of tenderness I would otherwise think only possible with a WFO.  That is the only way I believe one can maintain a suppleness in the dough while still achieving a crisping on the edges and bottom.  I baked two pies last night, and with the first I achieved the best results thus far in regards to leoparding of both the top and bottom.  The middle of the pizza, however, was way too crispy.  With the second, I found much better results in regards to tenderness, but the crust never had a chance to even brown.  Both pies, btw, were baked in 2:15 under the broiler.  I just can't match top and bottom heat in my oven.

As for what I experienced in Napoli:
The taste of the pizza at da Michele was stunning in its simplicity.  I was blown away.  So tender, so understated, so beautiful.  Pure simplicity.  I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed the marinara.

Dear Salvatore, I was thinking about you a couple of nights ago while baking pizzas, and here you are! Welcome back! I am excited that you had such epiphanic trip. And, also, I am quite honored by you holding my pizza-making efforts in high esteem. Thank you, sir! Please, let me know if I, however limited my knowledge is, can be of help in your pizza quest.

I am agreeable to your observation in respect to Da Michele's pizzas: "So beautiful . . . pure simplicity." Several years ago when I was at Da Michele, I made a suggestion to Sen. Luigi to put the following banner on the pizzeria's wall: "We are lovers of beauty, yet simple in our tastes." (Pericles, the classical Greek statesman, made the eloquent statement during his famous funeral oration to the Athenians.)

Below are some pictures of the pizzas I baked a couple of nights ago. (As usual, I used my home gas oven to bake them.) Have a great weekend!

Respectfully,
Omid

« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 03:07:01 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1011 on: December 16, 2011, 05:16:48 AM »
Continued . . .
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline msheetrit

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1012 on: December 16, 2011, 05:29:55 AM »
Just perfect omid.
michael

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1013 on: December 16, 2011, 06:26:14 AM »
Omid, I am looking for the book you reference Una Storia Napoletana where can i find the book?


Not in the US (as far as I know), but in Italy:

http://www.giuntistore.it/customer/product.php?productid=12623&cat=490

On another note: in the pictures above, the pizza delivery boy on the moped with the Stufa on his head is a relative of Ciro Salvo, from pizzeria Salvo.

Peter


❧ Dear Thezaman, Mr. Peter is right. However, according to the email I had from Google, the book will be available soon (I do not know how soon) on Google eBookStore in electronic format. But, if you can not wait, you can purchase the book from the Amazon.com in the United Kingdom. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Una-storia-napoletana-Pizzerie-pizzaiuoli/dp/8884991889

Also, here is a Youtube link featuring the author, Antonio Mattozzi, talking about his book:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuRZUc8-quk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuRZUc8-quk</a>


At Last, here is a review on the book (use Google Translate):

http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/antonio-mattozzi-una-storia-napoletana/6536/

According to the review, Mattozzi's family—or, more appropriately, the Mattozzi "dynasty"—has been involved in the pizza enterprise for the past "160 years". He ought to know what he is talking about in the book!

❧ Dear Peter, thank you for the information about the "pizza delivery boy". Fascinating! I wonder what he is doing now . . . perhaps a high ranking pizzaiolo?

Good day gentlemen!

Omid
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 03:05:47 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1014 on: December 16, 2011, 06:29:59 AM »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1015 on: December 16, 2011, 06:31:46 AM »
Just perfect omid.

Thank you, dear Michael!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1016 on: December 16, 2011, 08:21:19 AM »
Omid,

Thank you, and although it is good to be home, I am already planning my next trip.  My only regret on this holiday was not making it to Pizzeria Salvo.  Of course, there is always next year.  In addition, being able to watch Gino Sorbillo at work was an honor.  What he is doing with a few simple ingredients should inspire us all.  A true "Michelangelo!"

Never fear:  I have not completely given up hope.  I am plotting a way to achieve my goals within the confines of my equipment. 

A dopo,
Salvatore

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1017 on: December 16, 2011, 03:38:35 PM »
 thank you for the book information. i saw this book on my last visit to amano it was displayed at the hostess stand. i do not know where i could get a copy but maybe someone here can help.Napoli e la pizza by Giuseppe Rotolo. any help would be appreciated.this is a picture of the book
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 08:08:35 PM by thezaman »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1018 on: December 16, 2011, 08:24:31 PM »
I saw this book on my last visit to Amano it was displayed at the hostess stand. I do not know where i could get a copy but maybe someone here can help. Napoli e la pizza by Giuseppe Rotolo. any help would be appreciated.


Dear Thezaman, I know the book, Napoli e La Pizza: La Storia Comincia da Qui (Naples and the Pizza: The Story Begins Here), which was published about four or five years ago. A friend of mine had a copy which I used to borrow. Although somewhat controversial, the book is known for its "sociological" references, viewing the phenomenon of Neapolitan Pizza as a reconciliation with the traumatic history of Naples and its longing for political independence, which was ultimately never realized. This reminds me of the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, who was of the conviction that "art" (in this case, the art of Neapolitan Pizza) brings about a "redemption" from life's pain and suffering. Basically, Neapolitans have, for the most part subconsciously*, found solace in the pizza, which is fundamentally an icon and reminder of their historical identity and the past glory of Naples. (See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160278.html#msg160278).

In a sense, pizza to Neapolitans is what the book The Epic of Kings is to Persians. After the Arab Empire conquered Persia in 7th century AD, the conquerers began to systematically divest the Persians of their language, heritage, and culture. Ferdwosi (940-1020), the illustrious poet and author of the book, sensed that the Islamic civilization was eclipsing the pre-Islamic identity and glory of Persia. So, to make a long story short, he authored the book, The Epic, which took him thirty excruciating years, in order to save the Persian language and culture. (An Egyptian scholar once remarked that a reason Egyptians speak Arabic today is because they did not have a Ferdowsi to preserve their own language!) So, today, Persians believe that true Persia exists in the book, as a home and as a source of their historical identity. I ascribe the same sentiment toward the Neapolitan Pizza. Indeed, when we engage in the ritual of making Neapolitan style pizza, we are engaged in something more than a culinary tradition that needs to be approached with reverence and care! "The mask of Naples"—i.e., "Pulcinella"—is another integral aspect of the Neapolitan culture.  

Unfortunately, I do not know where the book can be found. Please, let me know if you find it anywhere; I would like to purchase a copy. My wife, who recently came back from Naples, could not find me a copy there. Perhaps, she did not look hard enough. Maybe, we should call Amano to see if they can be of any assistance. Good night!

Regards,
Omid
______________________________________________________________
*Can not expect every Neapolitan consciously know about these issues. Think about how much an average U.S. citizen is cognizant of the U.S. history, its significations, and symbolic values.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 10:54:22 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
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http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1019 on: December 17, 2011, 05:29:24 AM »
Last night's bake (using Santos, 62% hydration, 1.5% crisceto, 4+53 hours of fermentation in controlled room temperature, & home gas oven):
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 03:35:18 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/