A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!

[Pizza Napoletana]

Omid
Beautiful results, they show your passion and skill!
Thanks so much for your help and uncovering my proper decision. I saw a video of an MD and a pastry chef, both authors, showing their no kneed technique. I know this is sac religious but if temperature control is the ultimate goal, what about a no kneed technique for Neapolitano Pizza? Perhaps the loooong proofing presents a commercial problem? Any thoughts?
Joel Leon

Dear Joel, thank you very much for your compliment, and I hope my help has been contributory toward finding your ideal dough mixer. As dear Scott_r eloquently stated in Reply #407 in this thread, "Mixers need to [be] matched to the style of your pizza." In respect to preparing Neapolitan dough, to the best of my limited knowledge, I do not believe "temperature control is the ultimate goal", although it is essential. As I am sure you already know, the following factors are of mutual importance in mechanized mixing and kneading dough:

1. Proper hydration of flour,
2. Uniform formation of gluten network,
3. Homogenization of dough consistency (agreement or coherence amongst parts),
4. Homogenization of dough temperature,
5. Proper effectuation of "knead-tenderness correlation" and "mass-speed correlation",
6. Proper "oxygenation" (i.e., enriching dough with oxygen or air), as opposed to "oxidization", of dough without excessively heating it up, and
7. Actualization of "point of pasta".
   (See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149303.html#msg149303)
   (See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155156.html#msg155156)
8. Etc.

Perhaps, I am reading more than necessary into this subject matter; nonetheless, the above factors have been pivotal in my approach toward mixing and kneading Neapolitan style dough.

In regard to your proposed "no kneed technique", I can not remember if I have ever implemented it specifically toward preparing Neapolitan style dough. If this technique can be conducive toward the above-stated factors, in addition to proper dough fermentation and maturation, while keeping in mind the traditionally prescribed attributes of the Neapolitan curst, it can be worthy of consideration in a home setting where the lack of proper mixer and wood-fired oven is often felt. Have a great day!

Respectfully,
Omid

[Pizza Napoletana]

I have often heard some Americans and Panjabis characterizing the Neapolitan pizza crust as comparable or similar to the naan bread♣, which is a specific type of ethnic flat bread of India that is traditionally baked with live wood flames inside a cylindrical clay oven known as "tandoor". (See the 1st and 2nd pictures below.) A couple of days ago, I prepared some naan dough with the following ingredients♠: Water, sea salt, Caputo Pizzeria flour, baking soda, and yogurt ♥. I did not measure the weight of any of the ingredients, except the water (300 gr.) and salt (10 gr.) The dough, a wet one, was hand-kneaded for about 5 minutes, and thereafter it rested for about 2 hours. Next, I formed 3 dough balls (about 265 gr. each) and let them rest for 50 hours at controlled room temperature (about 60 to 72° F). Below is the pizza I baked with the dough last night. The crust was tender and delicate, and not far from the flavor of Neapolitan crust (yet different). The flavor appeared to be simple and plain (wheaty), like naan, not pretending to be anything else. Perhaps, there is a merit to characterizing the Neapolitan crust as comparable to the naan bread.

__________________________________________________
♣ As far as I know and generally speaking, the word "naan" does not depict any particular type of bread, and it is linguistically of Persian (i.e., Parsi or Farsi) origin. The word "naan" is simply the Parsi word (نان) for "bread". It has been theorized that the word, along with the bread itself (which later took on a specific form in India), was exported to India by the Zoroastrians (and possibly by the Persian Jews) who fled from Persia (today's Iran) to India in order to avoid being persecuted by the Muslim Arabs who conquered Persia in the 7th century.

♠ Whether true or not, I have been told that the traditional naan dough of India should contain no sugar, eggs, oil, milk, and baker's yeast. Also, I have been told that "maida flour" is commonly used for preparing traditional naan dough in India. According to Wikipedia, "Maida is a finely milled and refined flour of wheat, closely resembling cake flour, and used extensively in making Indian fast food and Indian bakery products such as pastries and bread and sometimes in making traditional Indian breads such as paratha and naan." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maida_flour)

♥ Please, note that I purposefully picked the type of Middle Eastern yogurt that contains "live probiotic culture", which may had some bearing on the fermentation of the flour. (See the 3rd picture below for the yogurt label.) I just do not know if the probiotic culture has the ability to break down the complex sugars of the flour.

[Pizza Napoletana]

Continued . . .

[Craiggy83]

Hey Omid,

The naan pizza's look amazing. I once built a homemade tandoori, but quickly abandoned it, because I almost lit my apartment on fire (it was on a deck, above another deck).  I plan on building another one, but that will be later down the road. I have seen a lot of your wonderful pizza's looking through your many posts. I'm wondering if there is a book you use as your inspiration for topping your pizza's? I love to eat, and enjoy just about any meat/veggie, but have mostly stuck to traditional toppings when making pizza.  I'm looking for a book that may go over some other great pizza combinations.  Any suggestions? 

Thank You,

[Pizza Napoletana]

Hey Omid,

. . . I have seen a lot of your wonderful pizza's looking through your many posts. I'm wondering if there is a book you use as your inspiration for topping your pizza's? . . . I'm looking for a book that may go over some other great pizza combinations.  Any suggestions?

Dear Craiggy, I thank you very much for your compliment! I do not know of any books suggestive of pizza toppings. There is probably some kind of book out there on the topic. Sometimes I examine various pizzerias' menus on the internet; there are plenty of them out there (such as http://www.pizzeriasalvo.it/). Other times I just let my imagination do some creative thinking. One of these days, I will have to try Craig's Brussels Sprouts recipes. (See the pictures attached hereunder.) Check out his pizzas, if you have not already, as he is very creative with his choice of toppings. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14249.0.html) Have a great New Year!

Regards,
Omid

[Pizza Napoletana]

Last night's bake (using Santos mixer, direct method, Caputo Pizzeria flour, 63% hydration, 3% crisceto, 3+20 hours of fermentation in controlled room temperature, & home gas oven):

[thezaman]

Omid, you really do not need a wood oven. do you have a way to impart a little smoke flavor to your finished pizza?i seem to remember a post that you addressed that in.

[pizzablogger]

Omid, you really do not need a wood oven. do you have a way to impart a little smoke flavor to your finished pizza?i seem to remember a post that you addressed that in.

I'm not entirely sure how much smoke flavor is in a Neapolitan pizza cooked in a good wood fired oven. Maybe if the pie is domed at the end and there is some smoke up there, but the cooking time is so fast and the combustion is so intense that I'm not so sure. --K

[Tman1]

I'm in agreement with the minimal, if any smoky flavor in a brick oven. People ask me at times what kind of wood I burn, and usually leads to the question/topic of smoke flavoring.If I think on it, I've never heard a compliment regarding smoky flavor unless it has something to do with a specific smoked ingredient.

It is amazing at quality of the pies being put out by Omid's little oven. It would seem he could have a market if it wasn't so cobbled together.  =] 

[pizzablogger]

I'm in agreement with the minimal, if any smoky flavor in a brick oven. People ask me at times what kind of wood I burn, and usually leads to the question/topic of smoke flavoring.If I think on it, I've never heard a compliment regarding smoky flavor unless it has something to do with a specific smoked ingredient.

Years back I subscribed to a smoke flavor profile, but that was before making high heat pizzas at home and tasting other home made pizzas from other people's ovens that did not use wood as the fuel source.  It was from these experiences, mixed in with continued eating at commercial WFO joints, that led to an "aha" moment when I realized what I was tasting was primarily the char and slight carbonization that I previously had only tasted in such a manner at WFO pizza joints (before tasting home made versions). --K

[thezaman]

 the wood oven imparts a different flavor than you get in a non wood environment. i have cooked and late added logs will smoke a little giving the pizza a different taste. una pizza napolitana adds wood shavings to his fire. i always thought that was to add some smokey flavor to his pies.

[Bill/SFNM]

I also agree that smoke flavor does not play a role in the WFO. The aromatics released by the combustion of the wood are short-lived at WFO temps. I have tossed hardwood sawdust on the fire for a quick blast of heat up the dome and down on to the pizza (lifting the pie to the dome is more effective in my WFO). When I add new wood to the coals, whatever smoke I observe heads for the flue, not coming in contact with the pizza on the deck.

[thezaman]

 we made pizza Christmas night in our wood oven. the last couple off pizzas had a very distinct smokey flavor to them.i did not cook them,i asked the cook about the taste .his comment was that  the last pieces of wood were a little wet and smoked for a minute before igniting. i guess i have to agree without some form of creating smoke the only thing that may impart some flavor is dooming it.
  so maybe a gas fired acunto oven is the way to go?

[pizzablogger]

 so maybe a gas fired acunto oven is the way to go?

I have been thinking about the whole wood fired thing lately.

It's very obvious that the shape of the oven and the materials used to construct the oven are critical....and the traditional, individual firebrick, low domed Neapolitan ovens have proven their mettle in this regard. But as long as (insert fuel source) here could be used to maintain the same temperatures in such an oven, I don't see the point in wood. But, that's a big if.

It may be that wood, because the ember pile stays seated on the floor and the flame licks the ceiling (assuming the fornaio maintains a proper fuel pile) is best capable of providing and maintaining the optimal differential between floor and dome temperatures? I don't know. The fuel pile from wood certainly takes up a meaningful amount of space, which bodes well for keeping the floor hot.

Maybe because gas would be emitted through a much smaller footprint in the oven, it is not good for floor heat. If jacked up enough, the gas could emit the needed flame to lick the dome and provide good top heat (the gas assist in the Renato at now closed Motorino Brooklyn emitted a startling amount of flame when turned on), but the floor heat is lacking? Again, I don't know.

Assuming that gas or another fuel source like electric, oil, etc could do the job, there is also the issue of cost. Not sure if the cost for an alternative fuel source would be effective versus wood costs.

There are also potentially meaningful variables like the size of the wood pile more positively impacting the flow of air through the opening of the oven, which also would impact the humidity in the refractory chamber.

There has to be a reason. Maybe it is not explored enough?

If it is solely because "that is the way it's always been done" or because it's "more romantic", I don't prescribe to either of those if it is the only reason. Call me an effing tree hugger, but the world's forests continue to be chopped down at an alarming rate and unless there could be a guarantee of some type that assures a WFO operator that all of the wood comes from naturally felled trees (lightning, old age, etc), I sometimes feel that burning wood for pizzas is somewhat of an extravagance. I know the percentage of wood used by WFO pizza operators represents an iota of the wood being chopped down each year, but sometimes me wonders, yes precious...we wonders.

Anywho, that's enough blathering from a somewhat hypocrite who will certainly continue to eat more than his share of wood fired pizzas! .  

[Pizza Napoletana]

Omid, you really do not need a wood oven. do you have a way to impart a little smoke flavor to your finished pizza?i seem to remember a post that you addressed that in.

Dear Thezaman, thank you for the thought! I have used water-soaked mesquite, not oak, (placed in the space below the stack of pizza stones) inside my home gas oven. However, it did not prove to be practical, seemingly because, amongst other reasons, my oven is a non-cylindrical, metal box without the archetypal dome and with relatively poor air and heat circulation, not to mention that it is very difficult to gain access to the space below the stones, as the drawer below the oven door is sealed and locked in position in order to minimize heat loss. In my opinion, a well-built wood-fired oven endows pizza with a peculiar texture and flavor that my home oven can not match. Years ago, when I had a wood-fueled oven, along with a home gas oven that was superbly modified and contained a chamber for burning wood, I repeatedly baked pizzas with both, and the ones baked in the former alway came out, in my estimation, superior in texture and flavor.

I'm not entirely sure how much smoke flavor is in a Neapolitan pizza cooked in a good wood fired oven. Maybe if the pie is domed at the end and there is some smoke up there, but the cooking time is so fast and the combustion is so intense that I'm not so sure. --K

Years back I subscribed to a smoke flavor profile, but that was before making high heat pizzas at home and tasting other home made pizzas from other people's ovens that did not use wood as the fuel source.  It was from these experiences, mixed in with continued eating at commercial WFO joints, that led to an "aha" moment when I realized what I was tasting was primarily the char and slight carbonization that I previously had only tasted in such a manner at WFO pizza joints (before tasting home made versions). --K

Dear Pizzablogger, I entertain the same tentativeness as you in respect to the "smoke flavor". Here is my observation, just an observation, in regard to your referenced "char" and "carbonization" on pizza crust and cornicione. As you probably know I live within walking distance to Pizzeria Bruno Napoletano, whose pizzas have sublime, tender crusts and nicely blistered cornicioni, baked in a Stefano Ferrara oven. One time, I bought a Pizza Margherita from Bruno and quickly brought it home, wherein I immediately prepared and baked in my home gas oven my own Pizza Margherita with a dough (made with the flour the Pizzeria kindly supplied me with, and topped with the tomatoes that were also generously given to me by the pizzeria) that I deemed as comparable to Bruno's. My own Margherita visually appeared to have the same "chars" and "carbonization" as Bruno's Margherita, except: both the crust and the cornicione of Bruno's pizza had a noticeable and accentuated hint—very strong hint—of smokey fragrance and flavor in comparison to mine. Although both pizzas contained "chars" and "carbonization", Bruno's tasted way more "smokey" and definitely superior to mine. In terms of texture and tenderness, Bruno's had Da-Michel-esque qualities. I think I am going to close my kitchen tonight and go to Bruno's instead!

I'm in agreement with the minimal, if any smoky flavor in a brick oven. People ask me at times what kind of wood I burn, and usually leads to the question/topic of smoke flavoring.If I think on it, I've never heard a compliment regarding smoky flavor unless it has something to do with a specific smoked ingredient.

It is amazing at quality of the pies being put out by Omid's little oven. It would seem he could have a market if it wasn't so cobbled together.  =]

Thank you, dear Tman!

[pizzablogger]

One time, I bought a Pizza Margherita from Bruno and quickly brought it home, wherein I immediately prepared and baked in my home gas oven my own Pizza Margherita with a dough (made with the flour the Pizzeria kindly supplied me with, and topped with the tomatoes that were also generously given to me by the pizzeria) that I deemed as comparable to Bruno's. My own Margherita visually appeared to have the same "chars" and "carbonization" as Bruno's Margherita, except: both the crust and the cornicione of Bruno's pizza had a noticeable and accentuated hint—very strong hint—of smokey fragrance and flavor in comparison to mine. Although both pizzas contained "chars" and "carbonization", Bruno's tasted way more "smokey" and definitely superior to mine. In terms of texture and tenderness, Bruno's had Da-Michel-esque qualities. I think I am going to close my kitchen tonight and go to Bruno's instead!

Omid, was the smoky flavor in the Bruno pizza just the "one time" that you mentioned or is it a quality you have noticed in all of the pizze you have purchased from Bruno?

Do you remember if the pizza you mentioned was domed at the end or not?

In addition, what was the cook time, if you timed it? As an aside, if you have a stopwatch app on your phone, could you please stopwatch several pizzas at Bruno if you think about it? I have a fascination with cook times and would love to see the times on several pizzas at Bruno and add them to my log....I'll take your word on reporting back accurate times if you do so! 

Thanks and enjoy your pizzas! --K   

[Pizza Napoletana]

Omid, was the smoky flavor in the Bruno pizza just the "one time" that you mentioned or is it a quality you have noticed in all of the pizze you have purchased from Bruno? Do you remember if the pizza you mentioned was domed at the end or not? In addition, what was the cook time, if you timed it? As an aside, if you have a stopwatch app on your phone, could you please stopwatch several pizzas at Bruno if you think about it? I have a fascination with cook times and would love to see the times on several pizzas at Bruno and add them to my log....I'll take your word on reporting back accurate times if you do so!  

Thanks and enjoy your pizzas! --K  

Dear Pizzablogger, I eat at Pizzeria Bruno Napoletano about once per week. And, the pizzas have always had the pleasant smokey aroma and flavor. Last night was no exception! The pizzeria was packed as usual and the sole pizzaiolo, Mr. Peter, was too busy to chat with me about the virtuous of his Ferrara oven. I sat at the pizza bar, about 7 feet away from the front end of the oven, which was at full blast, with the voluptuous flames incessantly embracing the dome and leaping outward through the upper side of the oven's mouth. I could clearly see the whirlwind of smoke inside the oven, endlessly going round and round, like a merry-go-round, while brushing itself against the dome and the walls, and periodically, but not rarely, caressing the floor—a spectacular sight to see. When I pointed out the whirlwind of smoke to a friend of mine who happened to be there, he was so bedazzled!

The pizzas that were launched into the oven did not require much pampering or manual intervention during baking. Laudable oven! Sometimes Mr. Peter would rotate the pizzas only once and sometimes none before they were ready to exit the oven. My Pizza Margherita, which took only 51 seconds to bake, was rotated only once prior to saying farewell to the oven, before fleetingly glimpsing the dome. I could tell the oven's dome and floor were in communion with one another, as the base and face of my pizza were in unmitigated agreement with one another. The cornicione, beautifully adorned with delicate and glossy blisters, royally crowned the delicate crust, and both had smokey flavor, just like all the rest of the Bruno pizzas that I have had thus far.

Once a Neapolitan pizza aesthete told me, "If there are no wood-fired ovens in heaven, I rather go to hell!" I reciprocated, "If so, please come back to take me with you." After all, according to Dante's Divine Comedy, the first rung of hell is occupied with all the noble souls such as Alexander the Great, Homer, Ovid, and philosophers such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. It would be a hell of a pizza party! Have a great day.

[thezaman]

Omid, the wirlwind of smoke is something I see in all of the ovens that are cooking at proper pizza temperatures. My oven included. Problem with mine is this sometimes leeds to to hot floor temperatures.when I see that smoke rolling across the front of the oven usually 6 to 8 inches off the floor I know I have to move quick to get a good bake. So lifting the pizza into that smoke curtain must add some flavor to the pizza, yes?

[pizzablogger]

Great recap Omid!

The Stefano Ferrara and Forno Napoletano ovens are really a sight to behold when they are in full swing and quickly serenading the pizzas within. -K

[Pizza Napoletana]

So lifting the pizza into that smoke curtain must add some flavor to the pizza, yes?

Yes! Or, to be cautious and use sound reasoning, let me put it this way: based on my above-referenced comparison between the flavors of my pizza (baked in my home gas oven) and Bruno's pizza (baked in Neapolitan oven), I inductively, yet cogently, conclude "yes".

Check out the two videos at the following link, below, and compare the performance of the wood-fired oven against the gas oven. Both ovens were built by the same builder. (Of course, we do not know for how long and under what conditions the ovens were primed.) Try to start both videos as simultaneously as possible and see which pizza requires more pampering and handling. I wished I could taste both pizzas to discern the difference, if any, in flavors. Happy New Year!

http://www.fornigrimaldi.com/