Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 170533 times)

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Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1160 on: January 19, 2012, 04:50:20 PM »
Omid, you are continuing to pen what is now becoming the most epic, passionate and detailed food related topic/love affair (not just pizza) I can recall reading on the internet.....not too many books are at this level either.

You should write one! --K   :)

I agree with Pizzablogger. It is rare to read such informed, thoughtful, pointed prose anywhere, on any subject. I don't really claim to understand it all, but I love reading it!  A book?  Well, to be truthful, I don't foresee a best seller, but I do think it would be a great cult classic. 

Pizzamaking.com has become the de facto center of the universe for advanced thinking and philosophizing about pizza, and by extension, life itself! 

Bravo, Omid. Onward! 
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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1161 on: January 19, 2012, 10:07:11 PM »
Hey Matthew,
I  Knew you would be lurking about  ;D and I know you are a spinning machine! I was Just wondering what the consensus is or disciplinaire says about this tool? I tell my help to not keep it in the oven. Just  turn and out, turn and out., or yes sticking issues, but as Larry mentioned I was wondering if it actually sets or cooks the pizza in anyway or depends on the hearth heat .... all ways trying to learn that extra something ?
thanks John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1162 on: January 20, 2012, 03:56:55 AM »
Hi John, any new videos of you new mixer?  Thanks

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1163 on: January 20, 2012, 03:59:31 AM »
Omid as always great stuff !I have gone to a 9" peel.  A canadian guy named Matthew ordered one from me a while back.  ;) After holding it in my hands, I realized it was a very good idea. also , I would like your thought on the placement of the  device during the bake. Leave it in the oven ?on the floor ? toward the dome?  back to edge / mouth between turns?
thanks
John

Dear john, thank you! I did not know that you sell pizza tools. Do you have a website where I can view your products? Good day!

Respectfully,
Omid
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1164 on: January 20, 2012, 04:23:56 AM »
Dear Omid:

I have been reading this thread from the its enlightening inception through its many permutations and digressions into the aesthetics of the pizza art. I have to say, of all the blogs I have read and discussions of various food types, it is by far my favorite, and I try to digest another new idea from it each day. Thank you!

I read of your experiences with the Santos mixer, and was motivated to research alternative ways of changing the speed to your liking.  Here is one possible avenue of effort: although the mixer cited in the article is the KA, I can't imagine the process would be appreciably different for the Santos.

How Can I Put a Rheostat on a KitchenAid Mixer?
By Heather Lindsay, eHow Contributor
    
Print this article
A rheostat is a type of potentiometer with two terminals used to control the amount of electricity that reaches a device. They are used in light dimmer switches, fans, soldering irons, generators and other electrical devices that require precise control of electrical current. There are some available that are constructed to plug a device into with a dial to control the speed or temperature of the item plugged into it. These rheostats are the easiest to use with a KitchenAid mixer that has a broken speed control, as they do not require installation inside the mixer.

Related Searches:
Difficulty: Moderately Easy
Instructions:

1. Ensure that the rheostat and mixer are set in the "Off" position.
2. Plug the rheostat into the wall socket.
3. Connect the KitchenAid mixer's electrical plug into the available female socket on the rheostat.
4. Turn the mixer on to its highest setting while leaving the rheostat off.
5. Adjust the dial on the rheostat slowly upward until the mixer reaches the desired speed.


Thank you again, and I hope I have helped you in some small way!

Regards,
Brian

Dear Brian, I am thankful to you! Further, I truly appreciate your caring effort in finding a solution toward decreasing the fork RPM of the Santos mixer. Unfortunately, due to the peculiarities of the Santos motor, your proposed solution does not seem to be viable according to some of the industry experts that I have talked to. In addition, one of the members of this forum claims to have tried this solution without success. The good news is that the Santos engineers in France are currently working on this issue. They are attempting to slow down the RPM mechanically as opposed to electronically. Once the mission is accomplished, I will inform everyone. Again, I thank you for everything!

Sincerely,
Omid
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:06:16 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1165 on: January 20, 2012, 05:00:20 AM »
Omid, two oldie but a goodies with regards to turning a pie in a Neapolitan oven (Acunto in this instance).

One way to go about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALD2FK_BsY8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNWPcbRW0Ak&feature=related


Mr. Pasquale Makishima's skills deserve respect. I remember that in one video he loaded as many as 7 pizzas inside the oven and managed them competently while simultaneously assembling more pizzas on the bench. Thank you for the links. Good day!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Matthew

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1166 on: January 20, 2012, 06:15:12 AM »
Hey Matthew,
I  Knew you would be lurking about  ;D and I know you are a spinning machine! I was Just wondering what the consensus is or disciplinaire says about this tool? I tell my help to not keep it in the oven. Just  turn and out, turn and out., or yes sticking issues, but as Larry mentioned I was wondering if it actually sets or cooks the pizza in anyway or depends on the hearth heat .... all ways trying to learn that extra something ?
thanks John

That's a good question & to be honest I'm not sure.  With my dough, there is no way that you can do the initial spin with a hot peel & my dough is not even super hydrated.  The subsequent spins are no problem.

Matt

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1167 on: January 20, 2012, 06:30:06 AM »
I agree with Pizzablogger. It is rare to read such informed, thoughtful, pointed prose anywhere, on any subject. I don't really claim to understand it all, but I love reading it!  A book?  Well, to be truthful, I don't foresee a best seller, but I do think it would be a great cult classic.  

Pizzamaking.com has become the de facto center of the universe for advanced thinking and philosophizing about pizza, and by extension, life itself!  

Bravo, Omid. Onward!

Dear Tinroofrusted, I express to you my gratitude!

I believe it was the German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770–1831) who insisted that so long as there is no unification or synthesis of art, science, and philosophy (which subsumes ethics and values)—our education remains crippled. And, per the ancient Greek philosopher Plato (429–347 bc), philosophy always begins in "wonder"—which is why we are here. Right? In contrast, Arthur Schopenhauer (1788–1860), another German thinker, posited that philosophy begins not in wonder, but pain and suffering. I assure you that some of us, however unaware, are here in this forum particularly for that reason! At last, for Friedrich Nietzsche (1844–1900), in his own words: "The genuine philosopher feels the burden and the duty of a hundred attempts and temptations of life—he risks himself constantly. . . . And knowledge itself: let it be something else for others . . . —for me it is a world of dangers and victories in which heroic feelings, too, find places to dance and play. 'Life as a means to knowledge'—with this principle in one's heart, one can live not only boldly but even gaily, and laugh gaily too." Our education, wonderment, pains, temptations (not devoid of fears), risks, and gaiety are written all over this forum which is supposed to be about pizza!

Respectfully,
Omid
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 06:25:49 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline andreguidon

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1168 on: January 20, 2012, 06:31:48 AM »
at the VPN training nothing about the peel staying inside the oven was said. i agree with Matt, i think that a very hot peel will destroy the dough.
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Offline Tman1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1169 on: January 20, 2012, 09:54:50 AM »
Dear Thezaman, thank you! I am of the same mind with you in that the friction of the relatively weighty pizza rims can act as an itinerant or mobile axis about which the pizza revolves. Adroit handling of a pizza with a turning peel, as you put it, "takes a lot of skill"—particularly when your dough disc, akin to Da Michele's, is delicate and large in diameter. See the 1st picture below, which shows how prodigious Da Michele's pizzas are. (The source of the picture is: http://reallyplayingforpizza.blogspot.com/2008/03/best-pizza-in-world.html.)

Have you noticed the large diameter of Da Michele's turning peel? The one I used in the pictures above is a little smaller than 8 inches in diameter, which is typically used in many pizzerias. Da Michele's turning peel is probably about 10 inches or more, which is probably more instrumental in handling their delicate and large pizzas. See the three of pictures of Da Michele's turning peel below. In the last picture, I copied the entire disc of the turning peel and superimposed it on the pizza next to it in order to give you an idea as to how large the turning peel is. Keep in mind that in relation to the lens of the camera which took the picture, the disc of the pizza peel is farther in space than the pizza; hence, the the superimposed copy of the disc should actually be larger in real time-space. Have a great day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxziymzXclg (Da Michele)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZntS3Hw2SY (Da Michele)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osIMdcXEqls (Kesté Pizza & Vino)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0MLl9qFBtc (Pizza Punch)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd_D-7Ep0wE (Singapour)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHPCDmLgsv8 (Italy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxSrAbzwdHs (Kuwait)


I watched some of these videos and have a couple questions. 
1. I notice in some of the videos when they initially start opening the dough they actually slap it prior to stretching. I haven't to this point done anything like this.  Is this to degas the dough a little? I seem to recall having to be diligent when overly bubbles appear during bakes and will pop them at times.. I haven't seen this happen in any of the videos. I wouldn't mind eliminating this issue for myself.
2. I've seen pizza's turned in place, turned and set slightly off original location, and pizzas brought to the mouth and turned and back in generally in same location. I had someone tell me that you should put the pie back in the same spot after turning to lessen the chance for burning as the original spot will have 'equalized'. If it's half on the original spot and half off it would provide different temps on the same pie.  They all seem to work, and maybe it's just a matter of maintenance/competence with baking the pie.

It was nice to see Punch Pizza included in your list. I have had their pizza which has been quite good. (They are however not the best pizza in Minneapolis any more, IMO.) Punch is a small chain of 7 locations with a central location making the dough (if my info is right). 

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1170 on: January 20, 2012, 05:39:30 PM »
Quote
Perhaps what is more decisive in preparing pizza is personality rather than technical skills of a pizza artisan

Indeed.....if it is the personality, or propensity of, the pizzaiolo (or more truly the fornaio once the pizza is placed in the oven....although the pizzaiolo and fornaio may be one and the same) to be passionate, mindful and attentive to making great pizza, then that will likely be the result, regardless to whether a pizza is placed exactly back in its original position after turning, left in the oven or brought to the mouth and turned or even moved from one location to the other during the course of the bake(as is often the case with barrel vaulted, bread type ovens).

That being said, there is likely a specific technique that will not only be more comfortable to you, but might be ideal for the specific oven and/or workload (number of pizzerias being served per hour on average, etc) of the particular pizzeria in question.  Then again, much like the pizzaiolo needs to listen, to watch, taste and listen to what the dough is telling him or her about how the fermentation process is going, so must the fornaio do the same each night, each hour and may have to adjust the technique depending on the rush of customers, possibility of needing to load many pizzas into the oven at once, how hot the refractory chamber is during a given bake and other factors. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1171 on: January 20, 2012, 06:08:12 PM »
Kelly, who wrote that quote originally?
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1172 on: January 20, 2012, 07:52:49 PM »
Kelly, who wrote that quote originally?

Omid
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1173 on: January 20, 2012, 08:49:05 PM »
Dear Tinroofrusted, I express to you my gratitude!

I believe it was the German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770–1831) who insisted that so long as there is no unification or synthesis of art, science, and philosophy (which subsumes ethics and values)—our education remains crippled. And, per the ancient Greek philosopher Plato (429–347 bc), philosophy always begins in "wonder"—which is why we are here. Right? In contrast, Arthur Schopenhauer (1788–1860), another German thinker, posited that philosophy begins not in wonder, but pain and suffering. I assure you that some of us, however unaware, are here in this forum particularly for that reason! At last, for Friedrich Nietzsche (1844–1900), in his own words: "The genuine philosopher feels the burden and the duty of a hundred attempts and temptations of life—he risks himself constantly. . . . And knowledge itself: let it be something else for others . . . —for me it is a world of dangers and victories in which heroic feelings, too, find places to dance and play. 'Life as a means to knowledge'—with this principle in one's heart, one can live not only boldly but even gaily, and laugh gaily too." Our education, wonderment, pains, temptations (not devoid of fears), risks, and gaiety are written all over this forum which is supposed to be about pizza!

Respectfully,
Omid

I believe Nietzsche also wrote that “a good writer possesses not only his own spirit but also the spirit of his friends.”

I would argue that the same applies to a good pizzaiolo. If correct, I’m surrounded by the right people here.

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1174 on: January 21, 2012, 04:48:51 PM »
I watched some of these videos and have a couple questions.  

1. I notice in some of the videos when they initially start opening the dough they actually slap it prior to stretching. . . . Is this to degas the dough a little? I seem to recall having to be diligent when overly bubbles appear during bakes and will pop them at times.. I haven't seen this happen in any of the videos. I wouldn't mind eliminating this issue for myself.

2. I've seen pizza's turned in place, turned and set slightly off original location, and pizzas brought to the mouth and turned and back in generally in same location. I had someone tell me that you should put the pie back in the same spot after turning to lessen the chance for burning as the original spot will have 'equalized'. If it's half on the original spot and half off it would provide different temps on the same pie.  They all seem to work, and maybe it's just a matter of maintenance/competence with baking the pie.

Dear Tman, I do not know what you exactly mean by "degas": to vacate the trapped air and CO2 inside dough, to move them from one location to another, or both. My knowledge of the science of convecting air/gas inside a medium, such as dough, and the rheology of the medium is lacking. Therefore, I am not sure to what degree the stretch-slap method "degases" a dough ball. It seems to me, in my estimation, the stretch-slap technique can satisfy the following objectives:

1. To stretch and loosen a dough disc;
2. To uniformly distribute dough throughout the disc;
3. To centrifugally and through the specific application of hands concentrate more dough in the rims (and, perhaps, releasing the tension that builds therein, especially if the dough is stiff); and
4. To shake off excess flour.

Certainly, to my thinking, the trapped air and gas are set in motion as a result of the exerted dough locomotion during the stretch-slap method. It seems logical to deduce that some of them are ejected while the rest rearranged throughout the dough disc and cornicione. If so, then the better the technique is carried out, the less one should be annoyed by the uninvited guests!

In addition, some doughs generate more CO2 than others, depending on temperature, amount of yeast, method of dough management, and etc. Hence, fostering the proper methodology should mitigate, not entirely rule out, the formation of such bubbles. Have a great weekend!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 01:51:51 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1175 on: January 23, 2012, 05:46:28 PM »
In 1656, in an unprecedented act in the history of Judaism, the elders of the Jewish synagogue in Amsterdam officially excommunicated the eminent Jewish philosopher Baruch de Spinoza (whom Albert Einstein* deemed as his disciple) for equating God with nature and nature with God. Although Spinoza did not distinguish between God and nature, he did draw a distinction between "the divine active principle" (which underlies and expresses itself as things) and the things (the cosmos/nature as a whole) that this principle produces. He referred to the active principle as natura naturans or "nature naturing". And, he referred to the things produced by the activity of the divine principle as natura naturata or "nature natured". To crudely exemplify the two abstract ideas for the sake of better comprehension, one could assert that when a character is creating a pizza, it is analogous to "nature naturing". And, when the pizza is created, it is commensurable with "nature natured".

I wonder what would have been Spinoza's reaction upon seeing the intricately ordered fractal patterns of the Romanesco Broccoli in the 2nd picture below. Perhaps, Einstein has already epitomized what could have been Spinoza's reaction: "God doesn't play dice with the world." Certainly, the "world" is not exclusive of the pizza dough!

_______________________________________________________
*According to Wikipedia, "Albert Einstein considered Spinoza as the philosopher who exerted the most influence on his world view (Weltanschauung). Spinoza equated God . . . with Nature, consistent with Einstein's belief in an impersonal deity. In 1929, Einstein was asked in a telegram by Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein whether he believed in God. Einstein responded by telegram: 'I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists. . . .' "
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 03:52:13 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1176 on: January 23, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »
Continued . . .
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1177 on: January 23, 2012, 05:48:24 PM »
Continued . . .
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1178 on: January 24, 2012, 01:11:35 AM »
Small turning peel big pizza?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Beo2TVh7umo&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Beo2TVh7umo&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL</a>

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1179 on: January 24, 2012, 01:34:41 AM »
Small turning peel big pizza?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Beo2TVh7umo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


Holy Abraham! Something tells me that if the large pizza, in the video, was made with Da Michele's dough and oven (same oven temperature and crust thinness too), it probably would have ripped, God forbids, on the oven floor without diligent handling. Thank you for the interesting link. Good night!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 01:38:30 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/