Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 170455 times)

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1280 on: February 20, 2012, 03:24:27 AM »
Continued . . .
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1281 on: February 20, 2012, 03:25:05 AM »
Continued . . .
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1282 on: February 21, 2012, 03:44:51 AM »
Last night's bake (using the direct method of dough preparation, 65.5% hydration, Caputo Pizzeria flour, 3% sea salt, 3.5% culture, 4+20 hours of fermentation at room temperature 70-78° F, and home gas oven):
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1283 on: February 21, 2012, 03:46:23 AM »
Continued . . .
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline bakeshack

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1284 on: February 21, 2012, 04:05:31 AM »
Omid, wonderful as always!  I always get inspired with your work!

With the direct method, do you think that the dough has a longer window of usability compared to the indirect method?  I am just referring to the optimum window where the dough has not exhibited any deterioration from effects of over fermentation or where the dough has exhibited enough signs of fermentation to be ready for baking. 

Thanks.

Marlon

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1285 on: February 21, 2012, 10:06:44 AM »
wonderful once again Omid!  the texture and tenderness of dough is always striking with your pizzi.  would you say this is easier or more likely to happen with your 2% starter - 4+38hr, or your 3.5% starter - 4+20 hr dough? 
thanks again for posting,
bill

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1286 on: February 21, 2012, 02:51:16 PM »
. . . This method of doing short mass-fermentation and then long ball-fermentation is not as uncommon as one may think. In fact, not long ago, a member brought to my attention Mr. Roberto Caporuscio's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvbYcABI2IA) in which he seems to recommend this method to certain pizzerias. In the video, after mechanized kneading of his dough, Mr. Roberto, at mark 7:47, states:

"So we take the dough out of the machine [i.e., the mixer bowl] and put it up here [on the marble-top] and let it stay for 1 hour. . . . There are two different ways you're gonna make [or ferment your dough]. You do with this dough directo. indirecto, so double fermentation. For example, in my place in the city, we do double fermentation because we do not have a cooler; so we do double rise, indirecto. This one here I recommend all the time, most of the time, for new place to do the directo. Just my recommendation. But every place is different, you know, because every kitchen is different than another kitchen." (I apologize in advance if I have mis-transcribed any parts of the video segment.)

Omid


Great video omid!!
I dident understand the term direct or double on the movie.
From the keste clone thread that member john post before i understaned that roberto let the dough rise for 20-24 hours and then reball it, on this video after one hour rest he balled it. Maybe the overnight rest before balling is double and the one hour rest is direct?...


Dear Michael, shalom! Although Mr. Roberto Caporuscio's comments regarding the two concepts, as he put them, "directo" (direct) and "indirecto" (indirect) methods of managing dough fermentation are scanty, it appears that by the former he means a short initial fermentation of dough mass followed by a long final fermentation of dough balls, and by the latter he seems to imply a long initial fermentation of dough mass followed by a short final fermentation of dough balls. In the video, he used the concept "indirecto" interchangeably with "double fermentation" and "double rise". In addition, in the video, he affirmed that he employs the "indirecto", "double fermentation", or "double rise" method at his own pizzeria. Good day and I hope you and your family are safe and sound in Israel. Baruch Hashem!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1287 on: February 21, 2012, 05:45:11 PM »
Omid, wonderful as always! I always get inspired with your work!

With the direct method, do you think that the dough has a longer window of usability compared to the indirect method?  I am just referring to the optimum window where the dough has not exhibited any deterioration from effects of over fermentation or where the dough has exhibited enough signs of fermentation to be ready for baking.  

Thanks.
Marlon


Dear Marlon, thank you! According to my experience, the "direct method" of managing dough fermentation (i.e., initial short fermentation of dough mass followed by long fermentation of sequent dough balls) does provide a longer shelf-life or window of usability (by about 24 hours or more if carefully implemented) in contrast to the "indirect method" (i.e., initial long fermentation of dough mass followed by short fermentation of ensuant dough balls)—as long as the ambient temperature is aptly monitored and controlled, not excluding the cautious use of hydration, salt, and fresh yeast/culture percentages in preparing dough. And, a mixer that befittingly oxygenates the dough and does not rise its temperature is instrumental to this end. The qualitative formation of individual dough balls is also another factor.

Here I am precluding any resort to dough refrigeration. Nevertheless, if an individual or pizzeria employs the direct method (which I assume is more common in the U.S. than in Naples) and does not have the effective means of controlling the ambient temperature, then dough refrigeration can avail itself as a supplemental (not substitutional) solution, for the purpose of preserving (distinct from fermenting) the dough balls. Of course, some may prefer dough refrigeration as a substitutional way of fermenting dough. The business environment can and often does impose certain limitations on the dough practices a pizzeria adopts.  

Closely related to this issue of "window of usability" is the business aspect of minimizing losses in a commercial setting. As a not so exact example, let us assume that your hypothetical pizzeria yesterday prepared (using the indirect method and no refrigeration) 120 dough balls for today. Further, let's say, your pizzeria is left with 50 dough balls by the closing time. Can your pizzeria afford the loss of money, supplies, and labor—not just on this occasion but also on other inevitable, future occasions—if the leftover dough balls must be discarded? Further, let us imagine that your pizzeria consequently prepared 80 dough balls for the same day for the week after. Two hours before the closing time, you ran out of dough balls and were compelled to close the door. Can your pizzeria afford such a loss of business?

As a tentative conclusion, it seems to me that since the Neapolitan pizza business in the U.S. is in its infancy and not generally as stable and predictable as in Naples, a (not "the") prudent course of action to confront the fluctuations of business cycles is to use the direct method of dough fermentation, along with the supplementary use of dough refrigeration. Perhaps, that is why Mr. Roberto Caporuscio in the video (
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvbYcABI2IA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvbYcABI2IA</a>
) contends "this one here I recommend all the time, most of the time, for new place to do the directo" [until such time the business becomes more stable and predictable]. Of course, again, this is only one way of surviving the U.S. business environment, which is understandably not the same as Naples'. Have a great day!

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 02:40:27 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Drgolf369

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1288 on: February 21, 2012, 10:12:25 PM »
Omid
Thanks for another insightful analysis as to why the directo method is often preferred.
I think the  process is to build gluten through fermentation and to develop flavor through bacterial metabolism?
I think the warmer the temperature, the more active is the fermentation and the colder the temperature, the fermentation is retarded and the bacterial metabolism becomes more prominent?
(I use the "?" because I am asking for confirmation or correction)
Are we trying to develop a sourdough type flavor and if not, then what flavor are we after?
Thanks again for all your insights and clarification.
Joel
PS Your photos and knowledge are most professional, you should write a book. I would like to place the first order!

Offline bakeshack

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1289 on: February 22, 2012, 06:10:45 AM »
Thank you Omid!  I agree with you on all points.  It becomes much harder once you are in a commercial setting because you have no control as to when the customers will come in and when the dough balls will be utilized, which makes refrigeration as a supplement during the balled stage very critical in preserving your dough balls for future use.  It's always a balancing act. 

Marlon


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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1290 on: February 22, 2012, 03:32:33 PM »
wonderful once again Omid!  the texture and tenderness of dough is always striking with your pizzi.  would you say this is easier or more likely to happen with your 2% starter - 4+38hr, or your 3.5% starter - 4+20 hr dough?  
thanks again for posting,
bill


Dear Bill, thank you! In my assessment, the texture and tenderness of the crust and crown of the pizza I prepared in Reply #1279 (using 2% sourdough starter and 4+38 hours of fermentation) were more prominent and accomplished in relation to the same attributes of the pizza I prepared in Reply #1282 (using 3.5% sourdough starter and 4+20 hours of fermentation). Please, note that I calculated the percentages of the starters relative to the weight of water in order to minimize the fermentative activities and bread-like, lactic effects, while, in Reply #1282, I used higher hydration percentage and warmer temperatures to speed up the enzymatic and fermentative reactions in relation to the same types of reactions in the dough in Reply #1279.

Considering my "dough cosmogony" (i.e., the way water, salt, culture, and flour are mixed and kneaded as a productive cause of a mass of dough, including the type, quantity, and temperatures of the the aforementioned elements in relation to the ambient temperature, and the totality of the extant surrounding conditions in my particular environment), my repeated experiments so far have conclusively confirmed that—gradual, unrushed fermentation is more conducive to tenderness and flavor of pizza crust and crown, akin to making a fine wine. I think how and the rates at which the enzymatic and fermentative reactions occur in converting complex carbohydrates and proteins to simpler molecular entities matter, as I explained at a glance in Reply #1262: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171967.html#msg171967 .

Have a lovely day!

Sincerely,
Omid
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 12:13:14 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1291 on: February 22, 2012, 07:24:16 PM »
thanks Omid.. very informative and helpful!  i'm glad you reminded me that your starter was relative to water not flour. 
bill

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1292 on: February 23, 2012, 02:46:14 PM »
Omid, i am looking for the book you reference "Una Storia Napoletana" where can i find the book?

Thank you for the book information. i saw this book on my last visit to amano it was displayed at the hostess stand. i do not know where i could get a copy but maybe someone here can help. Napoli e la pizza by Giuseppe Rotolo. any help would be appreciated. . . .

Dear Larry, now that you are going to Naples, perhaps this is a good opportunity for you to purchase the two following books that you have been looking for:

"Una Storia Napoletana" by Antonio Mattozzi, and
"Napoli e la Pizza: La Storia comincia da qui" by Giuseppe Rotolo

If you find the books, could you please buy me a copy of each if it is no trouble? I will reimburse you and love you, as I already do, forever! :D

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 02:47:49 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1293 on: February 23, 2012, 10:04:51 PM »
Larry looks like another box from Italy I too would like these books please!
Thank you buddy,  pal , friend, mentor, master!
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1294 on: February 24, 2012, 06:22:30 PM »
Are we trying to develop a sourdough type flavor and if not, then what flavor are we after?

Dear Joel, that is not an easy question to answer, although I will try! I assume, it is a matter of perspective and interpretation. According to my non-authoritative construal based on my personal experience and what I have gathered, ideally the flavor of the Neapolitan crust, or of the "matrix"* if you will, is benevolently diaphanous enough to be dignified, ennobled, or graced by the flavors of the garnishes, yet it is sovereign enough to stand out by itself. The sourdough flavor sensu stricto (lactic, tangy, or sour, such as that of the sourdough bread) in a Neapolitan matrix is deemed as a breach of its delicate gastronomy, which is characterized by unpretentiously light (simple), nutty (down-to-earth), and fruity (subtly sweet) flavors. The traditional Neapolitan matrix transcends the confinements of the conventional sourdough bread and conventional bread baking—hence the necessity of using unconventional (i.e., minimal) amount of sourdough culture—which has acquired the proper leavening force (yeast activity) and degree of acidity (bacterial activity)—and the Neapolitan oven. The eccentric characters of the neapolitan matrix distinguish, but not separate, it from the conventions of sourdough bread making. One might say that while the two are taxonomically from the same genus (cf. "general"), they are two different species (cf. "specific"). Have a great weekend!
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
* In this context, I prefer the term "Matrix" in order to differentiate the Neapolitan pizza base from the bread "crust" which is, by definition, hard, dry, and crisp.

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 03:14:52 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Drgolf369

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1295 on: February 24, 2012, 08:01:48 PM »
Omid
Thanks for the information. I used to use milk as 1/3 of the total liquid and did an overnight bulk fermentation in the fridg, which developed great flavor and chew, before I was shown the light on this forum. What do you think of substituting some milk in the Napolitano style.
Joel

Offline thezaman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1296 on: February 25, 2012, 12:18:17 PM »
Omid, i purchased the first book off of amazon and it is without any pictures and written in Italian. if you would like it pm me and it is yours,no charge to you . if there is information in it that would help the membership and you just pass it along that would be payment enough.i will work on the rotolo book. i will talk to Fred at orlando foods and see if mr caputo can get some copies. mr caputo is meeting with us march 9th at 2:30 very excited about that!!

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1297 on: February 27, 2012, 04:23:36 AM »
What do you think of substituting some milk in the Napolitano style.

Dear Joel, I have never tried any milk in my Neapolitan style dough to see how it actually changes the qualities of the crust. To the best of my knowledge, strictly only 4 elements constitute the traditional Neapolitan dough: water, flour, sea salt, and starter culture or baker's yeast. Have a great day!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 04:25:57 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1298 on: February 27, 2012, 04:29:40 AM »
Omid, i purchased the first book off of amazon and it is without any pictures and written in Italian. if you would like it pm me and it is yours. . . .

Dear Larry, thank you!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1299 on: February 27, 2012, 07:51:13 PM »
A couple of days ago, my wife asked me to make Neapolitan pizzas (i.e., Neapolitan-inspired pizzas) using a "regular, non-00 flour" (instead of "Captuo Pizzeria 00") for her small gathering with her friends last night. She had already purchased a regular flour for that purpose: Giusto's "Organic, All-Purpose, Unbleached Flour". Below are the pictures demonstrating the results. As I had expected, the texture of the crust was bread-like and tasted just like bread. It was tasty, but nothing Neapolitan about it! I had the oven floor at about 864° F, which was excessive in using the non-00 dough.
___________________________________________________________________
Flour: 1000 gr. Giusto's Organic, All-Purpose, Unbleached Flour
Water: 640 gr. (64%)
Sea Salt: 31 gr. (3.1%)
Culture: 19 gr. (3% via water)
___________________________________________________________________
1st Fermentation (in mass): 5 hours at room temperature 71 - 74° F
2nd Fermentation (in balls): 20 hours at room temperature 67 - 75° F
___________________________________________________________________
Modified home gas oven temperature: 864° F (floor)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 06:28:47 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/