Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 480487 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1325 on: March 03, 2012, 04:20:52 PM »
Omid, I think you are correct in the reasoning behind the duration of your puntata and appretto.  The longer the dough sits in bulk fermentation (puntata) the more exponentially it will ferment.  This will initially result in leavening, and if left too long, the dough will start to break down.  By shortening this first process, and lengthening the appretto, we allow for more time to elapse and more subtle aromas to develop.

Also, as the author mentions, the change between the puntata and appretto requires manipulation of the dough.  As soon as we do this, we force the gluten network to tighten.  One of the goals is to allow it to slowly soften, therefore by performing our transition earlier, we provide the dough with the benefit of added time without the interruption of human hands.  

I hope I am clear.  Thank you so much, especially for the original copy.  I try to read as much Italian as I can, and it is obviously more interesting when the subject is so near and dear to my heart!

Grazie tante,
Salvatore

Dear Salvatore, I clearly understand your point. I would like to point out that my comments on the initial short fermentation of dough mass followed by long fermentation of the resultant dough balls are not intended to attenuate the value of the inverted procedure (i.e., initial long fermentation of dough mass followed by short fermentation of the resultant dough balls). I think each method has its own particular merits. Have a great weekend!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:21:02 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/


Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1326 on: March 03, 2012, 04:24:52 PM »
Omid, beautiful pies as always.  Sorry if I missed this before, but why did you treat the fermentation process of the 2 doughs (AP vs caputo) differently?  Also how much variation in the mixing times existed between the 2 doughs?  Did you mix both doughs to the same point of pasta?  IMO, 2 doughs (short bulk vs long bulk) may require a different amount of kneading to bring about optimal results for each dough.

If you were to repeat the test using just caputo, the exact same formulation and kneading for both doughs, the long bulk dough will always be relatively "tougher".  I suspect that it is possible to arrive at very similar levels of tenderness using a short or long bulk (or somewhere in between) as long as the development of gluten (kneading) is adjusted accordingly.

Chau

Dear Chau, I implemented the initial short fermentation of dough mass followed by long fermentation of the resultant dough balls with the Giusto dough (of which I know very little) in order to see how it handles the process in comparison to my previous experiences with the Caputo Pizzeria dough. Next, when I prepared the Captuo Pizzeria dough, I opted to perform initial long fermentation of dough mass followed by short fermentation of the resultant dough balls in order to make sure the dough would reach the same destination as the Giusto dough by the time the guests would arrive. When I prepared the doughs, I had about less than 30 hours before the arrival of the guests. The Giusto dough was mixed and kneaded by Kitchen Aid mixer, using the dough hook, for about, I am conjecturing, 8 − 10 minutes. The Caputo dough was mixed and kneaded by Santos mixer for about 3 minutes. Understandably, both doughs had different consistencies after kneading. Have a great weekend!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:22:16 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1327 on: March 03, 2012, 05:46:53 PM »
Omid,

Thank you very much for the translated exchange between Messrs. Coccia and Parente. Some time ago, I found a "W" table and posted it along with some comments at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545/topicseen.html#msg42545. I think it amplifies the point that Matthew made.

Peter

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1328 on: March 03, 2012, 07:16:54 PM »
Omid - In the most positive way, there is a rustic, beautiful unevenness in the cornichone of your latest pizzas. What part of the workflow do you attribute this to?

John

Omid, I'm with John on your latest pies.  I really love the "rustic" look of these pies.  For some reason, they really appeal to me.  Maybe even more than your other pies. Are you sure you didn't bake these in a wood oven???  

Marlon

Thank you for the compliments, gentlemen! Please, allow me to ask you, what do you precisely mean by "rustic unevenness" and "rustic look", respectively. I am not familiar with the definition of the word "rustic" in the sphere of baking. I appreciate your clarifications in this matter.

Dear Marlon, I assure you the pizza, as shown below, was baked in my modified home gas-oven. I should point out that the referenced pizza was baked with the oven door open, as demonstrated below. I have poured a great many hours into designing, modifying, and refining the oven, top to bottom, over and over, through and through! Good day.

Regards,
Omid  
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:24:53 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1329 on: March 03, 2012, 07:20:50 PM »
Omid,

Great looking pies as usual!  Just curious what cheese brand are you using?

Scott D.

Dear Scott, thank you! The cheese is fior di latte by "Angelo & Franco" (http://angeloandfranco.com/), and I purchased it from the local Whole Food here in San Diego, CA. Good weekend!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 02:43:39 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1330 on: March 04, 2012, 03:51:59 AM »
Tonight's bake (using the same recipe and procedure in Reply #1312):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174595.html#msg174595
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1331 on: March 04, 2012, 03:56:49 AM »
Simply amazing looking pizzas there! I never get tired of looking at your work.

Dear Ev, my gratitudes!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline bakeshack

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 721
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1332 on: March 04, 2012, 04:16:03 AM »
Omid, I was just kidding with you on the wood oven, of course.  I guess what I meant with the "rustic look" comment was that your latest pizza really looked to me like it was made by a real artisan where the pizza is truly exhibiting character and not something that looks too perfect and generic.  I feel the same way about your other pizzas but there is something about the last one which made it stand out and get noticed out of all the beautiful pies you have already made in the past.  I really think that the pizza you are making looks better everytime and I can only hope to achieve such level of quality in my own pies.  Thanks.

Marlon

Offline bakeshack

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 721
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1333 on: March 04, 2012, 04:21:04 AM »
Tonight's bake (using the same recipe and procedure in Reply #1312):


Amazing pizza!  How did you like the Angelo & Franco cheese?  I have tried it multiple times before and it seems bland although I like how it melts in the pizza.  Also, I noticed how "white" it is compared to other mozzarella especially once it melts.  Thank you!

Marlon


Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1334 on: March 04, 2012, 05:16:37 AM »
Omid,

Thank you very much for the translated exchange between Messrs. Coccia and Parente. Some time ago, I found a "W" table and posted it along with some comments at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545/topicseen.html#msg42545. I think it amplifies the point that Matthew made.

Peter

Farina con W = 160 maturazione tipica in 2 ore.
Farina con W = 180 maturazione tipica in 3 ore.
Farina con W = 210 maturazione tipica in 4 ore.
Farina con W = 240 maturazione tipica in 6 ore.
Farina con W = 260 maturazione tipica in 9 ore.
Farina con W = 280 maturazione tipica in 12 ore.
Farina con W = 300 maturazione tipica in 15 ore.
Farina con W = 320 maturazione tipica in 24 ore.
Farina con W = 380 maturazione tipica in 48 ore.
Farina con W = 400 maturazione tipica in 72 ore.

As I have noted previously elsewhere, the “deformation energy” factor “W” is not a common one in the U.S. Millers use it but retailers who sell flour, such as King Arthur, for example, do not disclose W values in their literature made available to retail buyers. Caputo and other European millers do report those values. There are many places where one can learn about flour parameters and characteristics, but one of my favorite places is the Cook Natural Products website at http://www.cooknaturally.com/detailed/detailed.html. If you read the section on the W factor, I think you will see that W values are fairly closely correlated to flour type, principally to the strength of the flour as reflected by its protein and gluten content. So, the weaker the flour, the lower the W value and the shorter the fermentation time, and vice versa. Temperature will come into play simply because it can materially affect the length of the fermentation period. In practice, you will have to adjust for temperature changes by altering the hydration (by using more or less flour), by increasing or decreasing the amount of yeast (or preferment/starter), or by adjusting the salt content. I imagine that the table recited above is approximate only and possibly tied to a particular room temperature, not a wide range of temperatures. . . .

Peter

Dear Peter, I sincerely thank you for the link. Do you remember the source for the "W"-maturation correlation table?

Farina con W = 160 maturazione tipica in 2 ore.
Farina con W = 180 maturazione tipica in 3 ore.
Farina con W = 210 maturazione tipica in 4 ore.
Farina con W = 240 maturazione tipica in 6 ore.
Farina con W = 260 maturazione tipica in 9 ore.
Farina con W = 280 maturazione tipica in 12 ore. ⬅[Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour]⬇
Farina con W = 300 maturazione tipica in 15 ore.                                      
Farina con W = 320 maturazione tipica in 24 ore. ⬅[Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour]⬆
Farina con W = 380 maturazione tipica in 48 ore.
Farina con W = 400 maturazione tipica in 72 ore.

Primarily, I am wondering how the source construes or defines "maturation". And, secondarily, I would like to know the conditions—such as degrees of hydration, salt (if any), yeast (if any), temperature, and etc.—under which the maturation times were determined in the table. I took the liberty of marking the "W" for the Caputo Pizzeria flour (280-320) on the table. Again, thank you for everything and all your exemplary services to the members of this marvelous forum!

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:48:49 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Matthew

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2262
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1335 on: March 04, 2012, 05:54:44 AM »
Dear Peter, I sincerely thank you for the link. Do you remember the source for the "W"-maturation correlation table?

Farina con W = 160 maturazione tipica in 2 ore.
Farina con W = 180 maturazione tipica in 3 ore.
Farina con W = 210 maturazione tipica in 4 ore.
Farina con W = 240 maturazione tipica in 6 ore.
Farina con W = 260 maturazione tipica in 9 ore.
Farina con W = 280 maturazione tipica in 12 ore. ⬅[Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour]⬇
Farina con W = 300 maturazione tipica in 15 ore.                                      
Farina con W = 320 maturazione tipica in 24 ore. ⬅[Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour]⬆
Farina con W = 380 maturazione tipica in 48 ore.
Farina con W = 400 maturazione tipica in 72 ore.

Primarily, I am wondering how the source construes or defines "maturation". And, secondarily, I would like to know the conditions—such as degrees of hydration, salt (if any), yeast (if any), temperature, and etc.—under which the maturation times were determined. I took the liberty of marking the "W" for the Caputo Pizzeria flour (280-320) on the table. Again, thank you for everything!

Regards,
Omid

Omid if I may, perhaps Peter could add to my statements & disclose the source referenced above.

I have spend quite a bit of time on this & it is very complex to say the least.  As far as yeast goes, there have been arguments made that using a consistent value say 4-5g/litre of water under the exact same conditions will yield the optimal maturation as per the aforementioned chart.  I would use that yeast value as a starting point & make the necessary adjustments from there.  I believe that the best tool for this is the DDT (Desired Dough Temperature) method.  The most  difficult part of this method is finding the correct FF (friction factor) of your mixing method.  Once you figure this out you will be well on your way to achieving consistent results.  One thing that I have learned is that a  highly hydrated dough is not necessary in achieving optimal results.  A good quality strong flour is already rich in moisture and in actuality requires less water.

By the way; Stellar looking pizza!

Matt
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 08:25:26 AM by Matthew »

Offline pizzablogger

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1334
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1336 on: March 04, 2012, 07:31:31 AM »
 :)

Matt, I completely agree on DDT being a vital component to achieving consistent results.

The FF can be difficult to figure for home pizza makers, particularly when considering many of us like to experiment with different mixing methods which may change the FF of a given batch.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline pizza dr

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 389
  • Location: Las Cruces New Mexico
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1337 on: March 04, 2012, 08:09:27 AM »
Omid

I think what is the major difference from the pie that was referenced as rustic is the cheese placement.  At least that is what I see that is different from your previous pizzas.  Normally your mozzarella is oblong and perfectly spiraled around the pie.  

The mozzarella on this pizza seems to have a more random placement without as much symmetry.  

MY .02 cents worth of observation ( I must also admit that I have not had my coffee yet this morning ;D)

Personally... I think it is one of  the most beautiful pies I have ever seen.

Scot
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 08:19:53 AM by pizza dr »

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1338 on: March 04, 2012, 08:43:10 AM »
I believe that the best tool for this is the DDT (Desired Dough Temperature) method.  The most  difficult part of this method is finding the correct FF (friction factor) of your mixing method.

Matt is illustrating some of the norms in the commercial baking world and is dead on in his assessment. I have been reading on this subject extensively and have tried to use it with some success - it probably is more effective with large masses of dough instead of small. On page 57 of Suas, Advanced Bread and Pastry:

"To calculate friction factor, first find the number of degrees the dough will rise when mixed in second speed for one minute [commercial mixers usually have 1, 2 or 3 speeds]. Then, multiply this number by the number of minutes the dough will be mixed in second speed."

This statement is useless unless you know how long you are mixing your dough. And you find that out by an exact calculation specified using the RPM of your mixer type, also found in Suas. This in turn will allow you to create a calculation for water temperature which leads to your DDT or Desired Dough Temperature. Here is an example:

Base Temp: 225 degrees (DDT [75 for example] x the number of factors below [3])
Less Room Temp: -65 degrees
Less Flour Temp: -65 degrees
Less Friction Factor: -8 degrees

Water Temp = 225 - ( 65 + 65 + 8 ) = 87 degrees for water temperature

Now you know what temp water to add to your dough to get the DDT using the mixing time for your workflow.

John

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1339 on: March 04, 2012, 11:42:48 AM »
Dear Peter, I sincerely thank you for the link. Do you remember the source for the "W"-maturation correlation table?

Omid and Matthew,

I couldn't recall where I found the table, so I did a Google search with the table information. I got these documents in Italian:

http://www.pizza.it/content/tre-mulini-pizza-ii-parte

http://www.pizza.it/forum/varie/faria-alimonti-nuova-zelanda

http://www.pizza.it/content/informazioni-cottura-e-impasto

http://www.pizza.it/forum/cottura-della-pizza/ma-secondo-voi-lolio

http://www.pizza.it/forum/impasti/x-coppi-puntata-lunga

http://www.pizza.it/content/tre-mulini-pizza-w

http://www.pizza.it/forum/impasti-pizza/aiuto-consigli-impasto-alla-napoletana#comment-form

It looks like the "W" table I cited has really made the rounds. Plus it looks like there are a lot of comments on the subject in the above linked sites.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1340 on: March 04, 2012, 12:06:50 PM »
Matt is illustrating some of the norms in the commercial baking world and is dead on in his assessment. I have been reading on this subject extensively and have tried to use it with some success - it probably is more effective with large masses of dough instead of small. On page 57 of Suas, Advanced Bread and Pastry:

"To calculate friction factor, first find the number of degrees the dough will rise when mixed in second speed for one minute [commercial mixers usually have 1, 2 or 3 speeds]. Then, multiply this number by the number of minutes the dough will be mixed in second speed."

This statement is useless unless you know how long you are mixing your dough. And you find that out by an exact calculation specified using the RPM of your mixer type, also found in Suas. This in turn will allow you to create a calculation for water temperature which leads to your DDT or Desired Dough Temperature. Here is an example:

Base Temp: 225 degrees (DDT [75 for example] x the number of factors below [3])
Less Room Temp: -65 degrees
Less Flour Temp: -65 degrees
Less Friction Factor: -8 degrees

Water Temp = 225 - ( 65 + 65 + 8 ) = 87 degrees for water temperature

Now you know what temp water to add to your dough to get the DDT using the mixing time for your workflow.

John,

Several years ago, Tom Lehmann wrote an article at PMQ on the subject of friction factor, at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. One of our members, RoadPizza, subsequently posted a chart that can be used in specific circumstances, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11726.msg108395.html#msg108395. As you no doubt discovered, friction factor is something that lends itself best to an environment where just about everything is fixed. That makes it difficult to adopt in a home setting. I discussed some of these difficulties and challenges in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10152.msg88757/topicseen.html#msg88757.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the Lehmann article on friction factor, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090728230927/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 11:25:49 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2631
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1341 on: March 04, 2012, 12:29:42 PM »
John,

Several years ago, Tom Lehmann wrote an article at PMQ on the subject of friction factor, at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. One of our members, RoadPizza, subsequently posted a chart that can be used in specific circumstances, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11726.msg108395.html#msg108395. As you no doubt discovered, friction factor is something that lends itself best to an environment where just about everything is fixed. That makes it difficult to adopt in a home setting. I discussed some of these difficulties and challenges in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10152.msg88757/topicseen.html#msg88757.

Peter

Peter - Many thanks for those links, especially the chart. Do you know what mixer type that chart is referencing specifically, or is it just generalized?

As for the connection to maturation and water temperature, yes, I have found that small masses of dough tend to come back to room temp very quickly unless put into a very controlled environment, making calculations like these pretty much moot anyway. Not to mention not having a professional size mixer.

John

EDIT (3/22/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the Lehmann article on friction factor, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090728230927/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 11:20:45 AM by Pete-zza »


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1342 on: March 04, 2012, 01:23:29 PM »
Peter - Many thanks for those links, especially the chart. Do you know what mixer type that chart is referencing specifically, or is it just generalized?

As for the connection to maturation and water temperature, yes, I have found that small masses of dough tend to come back to room temp very quickly unless put into a very controlled environment, making calculations like these pretty much moot anyway. Not to mention not having a professional size mixer.

John,

I don't know for a fact but I would guess a Hobart planetary mixer since that is the most common and popular mixer used by pizza operators. The chart that RoadPizza posted is based on a friction factor of 25 degrees F but at page 6 of the General Mills document at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/Website%20A49104%20Just%20Crust%20Brochure.pdf, there is a suggestion that using 15 degrees F is usually adequate. It might be fun to determine the friction factor for a home stand mixer but in my opinion it is not really a particularly useful tool to use in a home environment, and especially for a small amount of dough that is to be fermented at room temperature, for the very reason you mentioned.

I don't know if you saw the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg143632.html#msg143632, but Tom Lehmann offers advice on simplifying the math for a home setting.

Peter

EDIT (2/4/2013): For an updated link to the General Mills brochure, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 12:17:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1343 on: March 04, 2012, 04:45:48 PM »
Omid, I was just kidding with you on the wood oven, of course.  I guess what I meant with the "rustic look" comment was that your latest pizza really looked to me like it was made by a real artisan where the pizza is truly exhibiting character and not something that looks too perfect and generic.  I feel the same way about your other pizzas but there is something about the last one which made it stand out and get noticed out of all the beautiful pies you have already made in the past.  I really think that the pizza you are making looks better everytime and I can only hope to achieve such level of quality in my own pies.  Thanks.

Marlon

Amazing pizza!  How did you like the Angelo & Franco cheese?  I have tried it multiple times before and it seems bland although I like how it melts in the pizza.  Also, I noticed how "white" it is compared to other mozzarella especially once it melts.  Thank you!

Marlon

Dear Marlon, thank you sir! That was the first time I ever used Angelo & Franco fior di latte. I need to use it more to formulate my evaluation of the product. I think the way the cheese melted on the pizza is probably and partly due to the oven door being left open during baking. Whenever I close the oven door during baking, the intense heat, in such a confined space, becomes overbearing on the cheese, making it loose its animated character. Have a great day!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1344 on: March 04, 2012, 06:21:36 PM »
Omid if I may, perhaps Peter could add to my statements & disclose the source referenced above. I have spend quite a bit of time on this & it is very complex to say the least.  As far as yeast goes, there have been arguments made that using a consistent value say 4-5g/litre of water under the exact same conditions will yield the optimal maturation as per the aforementioned chart.  I would use that yeast value as a starting point & make the necessary adjustments from there.  I believe that the best tool for this is the DDT (Desired Dough Temperature) method.  The most  difficult part of this method is finding the correct FF (friction factor) of your mixing method.  Once you figure this out you will be well on your way to achieving consistent results.  One thing that I have learned is that a  highly hydrated dough is not necessary in achieving optimal results.  A good quality strong flour is already rich in moisture and in actuality requires less water.

By the way; Stellar looking pizza!

Matt

Matt is illustrating some of the norms in the commercial baking world and is dead on in his assessment. I have been reading on this subject extensively and have tried to use it with some success - it probably is more effective with large masses of dough instead of small. On page 57 of Suas, Advanced Bread and Pastry:

"To calculate friction factor, first find the number of degrees the dough will rise when mixed in second speed for one minute [commercial mixers usually have 1, 2 or 3 speeds]. Then, multiply this number by the number of minutes the dough will be mixed in second speed."

This statement is useless unless you know how long you are mixing your dough. And you find that out by an exact calculation specified using the RPM of your mixer type, also found in Suas. This in turn will allow you to create a calculation for water temperature which leads to your DDT or Desired Dough Temperature. Here is an example:

Base Temp: 225 degrees (DDT [75 for example] x the number of factors below [3])
Less Room Temp: -65 degrees
Less Flour Temp: -65 degrees
Less Friction Factor: -8 degrees

Water Temp = 225 - ( 65 + 65 + 8 ) = 87 degrees for water temperature

Now you know what temp water to add to your dough to get the DDT using the mixing time for your workflow.

John

Omid and Matthew,

I couldn't recall where I found the table, so I did a Google search with the table information. I got these documents in Italian:

http://www.pizza.it/content/tre-mulini-pizza-ii-parte
http://www.pizza.it/forum/varie/faria-alimonti-nuova-zelanda
http://www.pizza.it/content/informazioni-cottura-e-impasto
http://www.pizza.it/forum/cottura-della-pizza/ma-secondo-voi-lolio
http://www.pizza.it/forum/impasti/x-coppi-puntata-lunga
http://www.pizza.it/content/tre-mulini-pizza-w
http://www.pizza.it/forum/impasti-pizza/aiuto-consigli-impasto-alla-napoletana#comment-form

It looks like the "W" table I cited has really made the rounds. Plus it looks like there are a lot of comments on the subject in the above linked sites.

Peter

John, several years ago, Tom Lehmann wrote an article at PMQ on the subject of friction factor, at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. One of our members, RoadPizza, subsequently posted a chart that can be used in specific circumstances, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11726.msg108395.html#msg108395. As you no doubt discovered, friction factor is something that lends itself best to an environment where just about everything is fixed. That makes it difficult to adopt in a home setting. I discussed some of these difficulties and challenges in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10152.msg88757/topicseen.html#msg88757.

Peter

Peter - Many thanks for those links, especially the chart. Do you know what mixer type that chart is referencing specifically, or is it just generalized? As for the connection to maturation and water temperature, yes, I have found that small masses of dough tend to come back to room temp very quickly unless put into a very controlled environment, making calculations like these pretty much moot anyway. Not to mention not having a professional size mixer.

John

John, I don't know for a fact but I would guess a Hobart planetary mixer since that is the most common and popular mixer used by pizza operators. The chart that RoadPizza posted is based on a friction factor of 25 degrees F but at page 6 of the General Mills document at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/Website%20A49104%20Just%20Crust%20Brochure.pdf, there is a suggestion that using 15 degrees F is usually adequate. It might be fun to determine the friction factor for a home stand mixer but in my opinion it is not really a particularly useful tool to use in a home environment, and especially for a small amount of dough that is to be fermented at room temperature, for the very reason you mentioned.

I don't know if you saw the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg143632.html#msg143632, but Tom Lehmann offers advice on simplifying the math for a home setting.

Peter

Dear friends, thank you so much for all the utile information and links. Good day!

EDIT (2/4/2013): For an updated link to the General Mills brochure on water temperature and friction factor, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 12:15:25 PM by Pete-zza »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1345 on: March 04, 2012, 06:31:27 PM »
:)

Dear Pizzablogger, you do me too much honor! I thank you opulently for vivifying the pizza picture.

Omid, I think what is the major difference from the pie that was referenced as rustic is the cheese placement.  At least that is what I see that is different from your previous pizzas.  Normally your mozzarella is oblong and perfectly spiraled around the pie. The mozzarella on this pizza seems to have a more random placement without as much symmetry. MY .02 cents worth of observation ( I must also admit that I have not had my coffee yet this morning ;D) Personally... I think it is one of the most beautiful pies I have ever seen.

Scot

Dear Scot, I thank you so much for your generosity!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline CJ

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 34
  • Location: N California
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1346 on: March 04, 2012, 07:36:18 PM »
Omid. You make dam good looking Pizza.
You and that guy from TX with the oven in the garage.
And my wife thought me crazy for getting one on a trailer.
Thanks all you pizzaiolo's

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1375
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1347 on: March 04, 2012, 07:50:47 PM »
Omid. You make dam good looking Pizza.
You and that guy from TX with the oven in the garage.
And my wife thought me crazy for getting one on a trailer.
Thanks all you pizzaiolo's

Dear CJ, I appreciate your generous compliment. Have fun with your new toy!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15841
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1348 on: March 04, 2012, 09:29:07 PM »
Omid. You make dam good looking Pizza.
You and that guy from TX with the oven in the garage.
And my wife thought me crazy for getting one on a trailer.
Thanks all you pizzaiolo's

Thank you from that guy from TX with the oven in the garage!

Craig
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2041
  • Age: 61
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1349 on: March 05, 2012, 09:11:42 AM »
 omid, you make beautiful pizzas. would you consider coming to ohio to help run a neapolitan pizzeria ? pm me