Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 517129 times)

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Offline Ev

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1350 on: March 05, 2012, 09:18:57 AM »
omid, you make beautiful pizzas. would you consider coming to ohio to help run a neapolitan pizzeria ? pm me

Hey Larry, arn't you 'sposed to be on a plane or something?
Have a great trip!! ;D


Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1351 on: March 06, 2012, 10:20:31 PM »
omid, you make beautiful pizzas. would you consider coming to ohio to help run a neapolitan pizzeria ? pm me

Dear Larry, you are a compassionate and unpretentious person, as I had already noticed this disposition in you. I hope you and your family are enjoying yourselves in Italy. Take care!

Regards,
Omid
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1352 on: March 08, 2012, 05:21:54 AM »
Due to certain reasons, unfortunately I had to delete this post, which contained the quoted passages from professor Raymond Calvel's book The Taste of Bread. However, I have provided below (Reply #1353) an outline, put together as accurately as possible, based on the passages. Thank you!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 04:17:18 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1353 on: March 08, 2012, 05:45:28 AM »
Here is a French perspective on "dough maturation", a perspective by professor Raymond Calvel (1914-2005). He was an expert baker and professor of baking, closely associated with the prominent institution École Nationale Supérieure de Meunerie et des Industries Céréalières (National School of Milling and Cereal Industries) in Paris, France. To express his perspective on dough maturation, I have prepared the outline, below, which is based on certain passages from his celebrated work The Taste of Bread, which was translated from French to English by Ronald L. Wirtz, PhD. and was published in 2001. In presenting his view in the outline below, there is the peril of taking the matter out of context. In an attempt to minimize the risk of decontextualization, I was necessitated to make the outline lengthy and fleshy, portions of which may not immediately lend themselves to the matter under consideration. At last, although the outline concerns preparing and baking bread dough, I think it is not extraneous at all, at least in principle, to the realm of Neapolitan dough.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

1) Rheological attributes of wheat dough:
    a. Apropos "elasticity" [capability to return to an initial form after deformation],
    b. Apropos "cohesiveness" [agreeable attraction and unity of parts of the same kind that hold the whole mass in harmonious union],
    c. Apropos "extensibility" [capability to be extended in space],
    d. Apropos "receptivity to forming" [the capability to receive and sustain diverse range of geometric configurations], and
    e. Adequate gluten-film "impermeability" [capability to disallow fluids/gases to pass through membrane] to elude loss of fermentation gases.

2) Dough constituents whose characteristics most actively contribute to its [structural] formation:
    a. Water (which is added per the flour properties and as a function of the desired rheological attributes enumerated above, in addition to accomplishing the desired degree of dough development and level of proof), and
    b. Insoluble proteins, i.e, gluten (which requires sufficient input of mechanical energy to be formed).

3) Formation of gluten network:
    a. Mixing causes the proteins to engulf the starch granules and form a network of gluten fibrils.
    b. Mixing effectuates continual development of the gluten network, eventually causing the formation of "gluten films" which become progressively thinner and more continuous.
    c. The formation of the fine, thin gluten film is enhanced by the links that form between the proteins and the wheat germ oils.

4) Correlations between water temperature, dough temperature, dough oxidation, dough maturation, and fermentation activity:
    a. Water temperature regulates dough temperature.
    b. Dough temperature substantially impacts the dough oxidation during mixing.
    c. Dough oxidation, caused during mixing, has a decisive impact on the degree of dough maturation.
    d. Dough maturation impacts the physical properties of dough.
    e. Dough temperature has a decisive role in influencing the intensity of fermentation activity.

5) Contributing Causes for and resulting effects of Oxidation:
    a. Oxidation (hence, dough bleaching and degradation of flavors of bred) will become more prominent at dough mixing temperatures of between 78.8˚F and 80.6˚F. On the other hand, the oxidation, dough bleaching and loss of flavors will become diminished by employing lower dough mixing temperatures, in the spectrum of 71.6˚F - 73.4˚F.
    b. Under the merged effects of "increasing mixing speed" and "increasing mixing time", this process [known as "intensive mixing", against which Professor Calvel decried] causes the phenomenon of "dough oxidation1". Within certain limits, oxidation has the short-run results of:
        1. Escalating the "dough strength",
        2. Rushing the dough's "physical development", and
        3. Shortening the time length that is necessary for "maturation" of the dough.
    c. Oxidation has a decisive impact on the degree of maturation of dough during mixing.

6) Dough "maturation":
    a. Dough maturation is correlated, through the degree of development of the gluten network, with the amount of oxidation obtained during mixing.
    b. As the "mechanical development" of the gluten matrix and the dough oxidation increase side by side as a result of increasing the level of mixing [such as in an "intensive mixing" session], the process of dough maturation will speed up over time.
    c. As the mechanical development of the gluten network and the dough oxidation decrease together as a consequence of lessening the level of mixing [such as in a "traditional mixing" session, of which professor Calvel seemed to had been a proponent], this operation necessitates lengthening the maturation period in order to to procure adequate development of the gluten network. Just as in the old days of slow mixing [i.e., "traditional mixing"], this maturation is achieved via alcoholic fermentation and its resultant dough-rise effect.
    d. The mechanical development of a dough is not necessarily followed by its oxidation. For instance, when the speed of the mixer is highly increased, the period of time that the dough is exposed to the surrounding air is reduced to less minutes. If the dough's exposure to air is further lessened by the rearrangement or modification of the mixer bowl or its dough hook, the gluten network will quickly reach a state of optimum development as the dough oxidation will be restricted. This operation considerably mitigates dough oxidation, and nearly sustains the initial dough pigmentation and color by the end of mixing. If there is a positive outcome for the bread aroma that results form the peculiar nature of this speedy manner of mixing, the negative impact of this fast manner of mixing is a noticeable lack of dough strength. [One may think about the Kitchen Aid mixer used under certain conditions!] The lack of dough strength can be remedied by a longer first fermentation or bringing about a higher dough temperature.
    e. The "dough strength" [i.e., the gluten network] categorically must be rectified if the proper level of "maturation" is to be achieved, climaxing to production of a bread that possesses character and distinction. Mixing is much more complicated than it appears; it is much more than just adding the ingredients together and blending them.The role of mixing is critical and should be deliberately implemented.

7) Slow mixing, fast mixing, and their respective effects on Maturation:
    a. When employing intense mixing in a restricted manner, that is slow mixing with moderate mechanical working of the dough, the maturation practically does not occur. To complete the maturation, alcoholic fermentation will be required; hence, bakers should plan a relatively long initial fermentation, as was traditionally done before the 1955-1960 period, in order to materialize a natural dough maturation. Since the development of the gluten film is also quite limited with the slower mixing method [i.e., the "traditional mixing"], the volume of the loaves will be a bit below average. Nevertheless, the loaves will properly rise, and their flavor will be outstanding and shelf-life longer.
    b. A high degree of oxidation is caused, and dough maturation is highly accelerated, when:
        1. Intensive mixing methods are employed,
        2. Oxidizing additives, such as bean flour, are present,
        3. Addition of salt is delayed until a late stage of mixing, and
        4. A massive portion of the dough is constantly in contact with the surrounding air.
       Such procedure (along with the inappropriate use of ascorbic acid) produces an "artificial dough maturation", resulting in an early termination or partial elimination of the initial fermentation and, hence, depriving the dough of the organic acids it would otherwise generate. Absence of the organic acids decreases the flavor, taste, and shelf-life of the end products. Moreover, out-of-control dough oxidation caused by intensive mixing results in "dough bleaching", which in turn brings about bleached bread crumb and deterioration of the bread taste.
    c. Generally speaking, maximum gluten film development and the accompanying hyper-oxidation of the dough brought about during intensive mixing cause formation of high-volume loaves at the price of—debasing the end product's desirable gustatory qualities.
    d. The mixing requirements of a particular flour/dough should regulate or play a role in the amount of "mechanical work" and "oxidation" in the process of dough production. Proper dough mixing practices should be mindful of the dough's "technological needs". It is of utmost importance to forgo over-mixing, dough bleaching, and artificial dough maturation. Fermentation should simply play its natural and fundamental role in the process of "dough development". According to Professor Calvel, "From 1957 to 1962 . . . oxidation was more limited and the use of longer fermentation period meant that dough maturation proceeded more slowly2. During that time, bakers were able to produce a quality of bread that captured the hearts and the pocketbooks of the majority of consumers."

8 ) Summary of Mixing Methods (not all):
     a. "Traditional: Mixing is done in slow speed only, and the low level of physical dough development requires a relatively long fermentation to compensate. It yields excellent flavors, but the resulting loaves are denser than what is seen in current practice. . . ."
     b. "Intensive: This is truly the antithesis of the traditional method. Prolonged high-speed mixing permits the quasi-elimination of the first fermentation, irreparably penalizing the flavor, texture, and keeping qualities. The delicate flavors of the flour's carotenoid pigments are lost through oxidation."

9) Correlations between dough "cohesiveness", dough "extensibility", and dough maturity:
    a. The degree of dough cohesiveness increases and dough extensibility decreases as dough maturation continues. When geometric shaping of the dough loaves is performed after dough division and the rest interval, dough maturation should reach a certain balance or "equilibrium" between its opposing attributes of extensibility and cohesiveness. The equilibrium is a state of reconciliation between the dough extensibility and cohesiveness, making them compatible with one another to a point whereby the dough does not lose it cohesiveness [i.e., unifying agreement between parts] when manually extended or contracted in space.
    b. The equilibrium includes:
        1. A degree of cohesiveness that permits the raw dough loaves or pâtons:
            a. To symmetrically rise,
            b. To proof to a rounded shape unaccompanied by any tearing, and
            c. To attain suitable volume during baking.
            d. Additionally, the loaves must resist deformation when undergo scarification (cutting the crust with razor) & oven consignment without suffering damages.
        2. A degree of extensibility that permits the dough loaves:
            a. To be extended or stretched without undue resistance and without tearing when manually shaped.
            b. To possess (1) favorable proofing ability during final fermentation and (2) proper impermeability (gas retention) prior to and after oven consignment.
            c. Further, the impermeability to fermentation gases permits the loaves to attain a positive development state that is productive of well-leavened, light, & fluffy loaves after baking.

10) Deficient dough strength and Deficient Maturity v. Excessive Dough Strength and Excessive Maturity:
      a. Sooner or later, a deficient maturation may become obvious as a deficiency in dough strength, and may cause a relaxation or weakening of the raw dough loaves in the course of the second fermentation. Normally, they proof flat, with a tendency to become sticky and deformed. After baked, they produce flat loaves with poor volume and unfavorable appearance. The crumb construction is every now and then somewhat coarse, possessing little or no suppleness and elasticity, and very often has a marbled or irregularly colored semblance.
      b. Excessive maturation—or to the baker, excessive dough strength—becomes obvious in the course of the second fermentation as the raw loaves proof into rounded forms, being likely to crust or dry out, and, hence, sometimes to crack or tear at the surface. The loaves, after placement in oven, are quite rounded, and oven spring generally develops slowly. The razor cuts on the loaves open up unsatisfactorily or not at all, and the color of the crust is visibly dull. The baked loaves are unpleasing in appearance, and in general the loaf volume ranges from slightly to significantly below average. The structure of the crumb is usually uniform and invariably tinted, yet these qualities do not make up for poor overall results.
      c. Both lack of maturation and excessive maturation lead to degradation of gustatory qualities. Their tastes and "mouthfeel" (i.e, oral sensory characteristics), akin to tomatoes or grapes that are either unripe or too ripe, lose their physical and qualitative appeals.

11) Correlations between fermentation, residual sugars, pH levels, and maturation:
       a. Increasing the dough maturation and continuing the dough fermentation cause progressive changes in the pH level of the dough and its level of "residual sugars", which are the leftover, simplified sugars that fuel dough fermentation.
       b. As maturation incrementally progresses and as fermentation is protracted, the dough becomes richer in organic acids and, hence, invested with lower pH, becoming progressively acidic. The continual changes in the pH changes the physical properties of the dough and results in (up to a point):
           1. An appreciable increase in the aroma of the dough,
           2. An appreciable increase in the aroma of the final product, and
           3. Longer shelf-life of the final product.
       c. The progressive diminution in the pH level of a dough leavened with a sourdough culture or levain is faster in relation to a dough leavened with baker's yeast. A dough leavened with a starter culture—possessing a flora in a state of equilibrium—has a pH that exhibits a continual fall on the scale. Bearing in mind that sourdough fermentation predominately generates organic acetic acids [and lactic acid] and the resulting aromas, such a dough generates more acidity after a shorter time period in contrast to a fresh-yeast fermented dough. It is essential to avoid excessive lowering of dough pH. Consequently, bakers must adequately refresh their bacteria-yeast cultures (in order to procure a proper micro-floral equilibrium) before achieving a suitable starter with which to leaven the first dough.
       d. The pH is related to the level of residual sugars existing in the dough loaves just before baking. The residual sugars, not yet metabolized by the fermenting yeasts, fulfill essential functions during the baking process. The measure at which the residual sugars still reside in dough is determinative of the magnitude of oven spring during the initial moments of baking. In addition, they importantly contribute to the Maillard reaction [a reducing sugar reacting with an amino acid under heat] and caramelization reaction [pyrolysis of sugar] in producing [non-enzymatic or oxidative] browning.
           1. Generally, a below-average pH is concurrent with a deficit of residual sugars, which translates into a deficiency in oven spring. This complication is generally evinced, all things being equal, by:
               a. A slight diminution in loaf volume,
               b. A lack of crust coloration (pale colored, because of limited Maillard and caramelization reactions during baking) along with inordinate thickness of crust,
               c. Less crust taste and slightly less flavorful crumb,
               d. A significant lack of bread aroma, and
               e. Reduced keeping quality.
           2. Generally, an above-average pH concurs with excess of residual sugars. An excess may result from an unusually short first fermentation, or from a lack of dough maturation. This excess, which occurs more rarely than a case of residual-sugar deficit, is generally evinced, all things being equal, by:
               a. Excessive Maillard and caramelization reactions, which appears as an atypical crust reddening,
               b. A significant decline in taste, and the crust will have a undesirable flavor combined with an overly soft texture in the mouth,
               c. A significant decline in aroma,
               d. A crust that often become singed, is too thin, and becomes rapidly soft after baking,
               e. A considerably poor eating characteristics of the crust.
       e.The presence of an appropriate measure of residual sugars in the dough loaves at the time of baking is vitally important; it helps in dough development, assists the loaves to reach a good volume, secures a lively oven spring, and contributes to the development of the crust coloration, aroma, and flavor. (End)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Considering all the above, I ask myself, "Is this the same 'dough maturation' that was referenced in Reply #1262, 1308, and 1323 of this thread?"

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171967.html#msg171967
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174549.html#msg174549
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174738.html#msg174738

The above outline seems to portray professor Calvel's "dough maturation" primarily as a structural phenomenon (involving the "gluten network" and its physical manifestations) as distinct from biochemical phenomenon (i.e., the enzymatic and/or fermentative breakdown of the starches into simpler sugars). It is possible that he may had primarily focused on the physical/structural attributes of maturation instead of the biochemical aspects of dough maturation. I wished I had a French copy of the book to examine the original French words which the translator translated as "maturation", "dough strength", "dough development", "physical development", and "mechanical development"—all of which are intertwined with professor Calvel's conception of "dough maturation".

What I value about the book is his insistence, as latently indicated in the outline above, that formation of a good dough should not be accidental, but historical (i.e., objective-oriented), as seems to be the case with the tradition of the Neapolitan pizza.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
1. For more discussion on the issue of "oxidation", please see the following link: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175605.html#msg175605

2. The technological introduction of "intensive mixing", post-WW II, has been a reversal of the "traditional mixing". This technology, adopted and promoted by various mixer manufactoring companies, is essentially predicated on quantitative—not qualitative—aspects of dough and bread (not excluding pizza) productions. In other words, time—hence "aging", in terms of cultivation of organic edibles and even in terms of human life—is fundamentally viewed as a burden! So, we try to find ways, or technologies, to save time, especially when we think "time is money"! Therefore, the taste of our breads, and even our gastronomical sensibilities, have been negatively affected by the social maladies of modernity. The German philosopher Martin Heidegger insisted that our sense of time (which may play a definitive role in our "being") is mutating, even eroding, as technology progresses—the technology that is principally predicated on "reduction in the loss of time". As he put it, "But reduction in the loss of time is the flight of time from itself." This reduction in loss of time, in the name of business principles of "efficiency" and "effectiveness", under the banner of "supply and demand", has been partly productive of demands for mediocrity and supply of excellence in mediocrity (e.g., McDonald's and many more)!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 12:29:43 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

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Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1354 on: March 08, 2012, 08:51:40 AM »
Omid,
thanks to you for adding this relevent information and your helpful explanations.  it's interesting to find reference to common topics that have been discussed at a much simpler level here including our "point of pasta" conversation in the SP-5 thread where it has been noted that longer mixing times result in a change in the color of the dough to white.  is this the oxidation and bleaching that is mentioned? 
Slowly but surely, as i pick up more information - largely through this site, i realize how immense this subject of pizza making is.  with luck, we'll all have many years ahead to explore.  i know i'm going to need them!
Bill

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1355 on: March 08, 2012, 04:01:06 PM »
Omid,

Thank you very much!  I have wanted to purchase this book as Prof. Calvel is legendary in the world of bread making.  He has influenced so many other great bakers, and his invention of the autolyse was created specifically to avoid the need for over-working the dough.  He recommends always erring on the side of under-mixing and developing any additional dough strength through the use of folding. 

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1356 on: March 09, 2012, 06:50:11 AM »
Omid,
thanks to you for adding this relevent information and your helpful explanations.  it's interesting to find reference to common topics that have been discussed at a much simpler level here including our "point of pasta" conversation in the SP-5 thread where it has been noted that longer mixing times result in a change in the color of the dough to white.  is this the oxidation and bleaching that is mentioned?  
Slowly but surely, as i pick up more information - largely through this site, i realize how immense this subject of pizza making is.  with luck, we'll all have many years ahead to explore.  i know i'm going to need them!
Bill

Dear Bill, you are welcome! With respect to the longer mixing session with the SP-5 resulting in, as you put it, "white" dough coloration, you asked, "Is this the oxidation and bleaching that is mentioned?" Since I have never operated a SP-5 mixer and know very little about its operations in connection with your surrounding circumstances while operating it, unfortunately it is difficult for me to assess the situation. In addition, so far I have not got hold of any conclusive literature which would clearly and unambiguously ascertain the immediate, physical symptoms of excessive wheat-dough oxidation and its attendant bleached coloration under different conditions and using different types of mixers. Although I have not studied the entire book by Professor Calvel, it does not seem to offer such details, except some guiding principles.

True or false, it is said that as long as the dough turbulence, friction, and temperature are befittingly managed by the mechanical operations of a competent mixer (not neglecting the flour, water, and ambient temperatures in themselves), an apropos or deliberate degree of oxidation is normal and contributive toward certain favorable physiochemical reactions, including the formation of the gluten matrix. To that effect, I would kindly recommend that make sure you are not misidentifying the dough color that you perceive. But what is the color to look for? True or false, it is claimed that the dough coloration that is characteristic of excessive dough oxidation and, hence, bleaching, ranges between dull, pale, non-vivacious creamy-white to plain white (as though the dough has seen a ghost)! Very subjective! My personal experiences have sometimes affirmed and sometimes denied this claim! I assume factors such as the amount of salt (which is said to reduce dough oxidation), type of flour, percentage of hydration, ambient temperature, type of mixer, and else, have bearings on this issue. Also, the same goes with using the direct and indirect methods of dough mixing, in addition to which ingredient, either water or flour, is introduced first in the mixer bowl. Generally, introduction of water, instead of flour, as the first element is meant to decrease dough oxidation and increase dough strength. I am inclined to stand by creamy-white as a healthy dough color when using my Santos fork mixer in conjunction with the Caputo Pizzeria flour, and employing the direct method of dough mixing, without excessively delaying the addition of salt (if at all), and keeping the dough temperature above 71˚F and below 74˚F.

Since excessive dough temperature can be implicative of the phenomenon of bleaching, you may want to take the temperature of your dough at the instant it undergoes blanching or whitening. At that point, just for the sake of letting your mixer instructing you by demonstration, you may want to continue mixing to see if whatever color that was observed, at the first instant of color changeover, undergoes any further changes while you keep taking the dough temperature. To interpret the gathered data in regard to the changes in the dough color and temperature, you may want to heed professor Calvel's advice:

"Dough temperature has an important effect on the oxidation of dough during mixing. Given that the average mixing temperature varies between 24 and 25˚C (75.2˚F and 77˚F), it should be apparent that oxidation, dough bleaching, and deterioration of bred taste will become more pronounced at dough mixing temperatures of between 26 and 27˚C (78.8˚F and 80.6˚F), while these same effects will be moderated, and bread flavor improved, by lower dough mixing temperatures, in the 22 to 23˚C (71.6˚F to 73.4˚F) range."

To be more critical, it might be worthwhile to attempt to come up with a preliminary definition of the term "oxidation"—and even "oxygenation" and the difference, if any, between the two. The former seems to be a category of chemical reactions wherein a substance, such as a dough, is chemically combined with oxygen, which constitutes about 1/5th of the air we breathe. Generally, oxidation reactions are either exothermic (i.e., releasing energy, such as the release of heat and light from a wood burning) or endothermic (i.e., absorbing energy, such as decomposition of water into hydrogen and oxygen which requires heating to very high temperatures). I believe dough oxidation is an endothermic reaction, requiring exertion of energy (heat/friction) onto the dough before oxidation takes place.

On the other hand, within this context, "oxygenation" seems to be physically incorporating or enriching a substance with oxygen, such as enriching water with oxygen (aka "water aeration") or incorporating oxygen within dough, in which case it theoretically would be oxidized if enough heat energy is absorbed by it. If true, then dough oxidation can theoretically happen even long after mixing is over, contingent on the ambient temperature. Of course, oxidation is a ubiquitous fact of the physical world, occurring at both organic (aerobic, metabolic, respiratory processes) and inorganic (rusting) levels. I wished we had chemist and physicist members here to coach us.

At last, using this forum's "Pizza Glossary", let us take a look at the definition it provides for "oxidation":

"OXIDATION: As applied to pizza dough, the term means a chemical reaction that takes place when air is incorporated into the dough, as by mixing and kneading. The effect is to reinforce the gluten bonds and strengthen the dough and increase the hydration capacity of the dough. However, excessive oxidation, which can occur if the dough is kneaded too long, can have the adverse effect of destroying caretenoid pigments naturally present in the flour and result in a loss of color and taste in the finished crust. This is one of the reasons why an autolyse period is often used since the autolyse will have the effect of shortening the overall kneading time." (http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html)

Have a great day!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 05:30:03 AM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1357 on: March 12, 2012, 03:55:45 AM »
This method of doing short mass-fermentation and then long ball-fermentation is not as uncommon as one may think. In fact, not long ago, a member brought to my attention Mr. Roberto Caporuscio's video () in which he seems to recommend this method to certain pizzerias. In the video, after mechanized kneading of his dough, Mr. Roberto, at mark 7:47, states:

"So we take the dough out of the machine [i.e., the mixer bowl] and put it up here [on the marble-top] and let it stay for 1 hour. . . . There are two different ways you're gonna make [or ferment your dough]. You do with this dough directo. indirecto, so double fermentation. For example, in my place in the city, we do double fermentation because we do not have a cooler; so we do double rise, indirecto. This one here I recommend all the time, most of the time, for new place to do the directo. Just my recommendation. But every place is different, you know, because every kitchen is different than another kitchen."

(I apologize in advance if I have mis-transcribed any parts of the video segment.)

Have a great night!

Regards,
Omid

Dear Marlon, referring back to our discussion on "initial short fermentation v. initial long fermentation", I do not know if you have viewed the video that features Mr. Roberto Caporuscio preparing and fermenting dough at his own pizzeria, Kesté, instead of at A Mano, which we had taken under consideration:

 (Mr. Roberto Caporuscio preparing dough at Kesté)
   (Mr. Roberto Caporuscio preparing dough at A Mano)

In the video, filmed at A Mano, Mr. Roberto employs the "initial short fermentation" ("direct method", as he calls it) in an effort to prepare dough. In contrast, in the video, filmed at Kesté, he implements the "initial long fermentation" ("indirect method" or "double rise", as he calls it) in an effort to prepare dough. In the A Mano video, after the mechanized kneading of his dough (using Pietroberto fork mixer, model La Vittoria, 60 Kg dough capacity), Mr. Roberto, at mark 7:47, states:

"So we take the dough out of the machine [i.e., the mixer bowl] and put it up here [on the marble-top] and let it stay for 1 hour. . . . There are two different ways you're gonna make [or ferment your dough]. You do with this dough directo. indirecto, so double fermentation. For example, in my place in the city, we do double fermentation because we do not have a cooler; so we do double rise, indirecto. This one here I recommend all the time, most of the time, for new place to do the directo. Just my recommendation. But every place is different, you know, because every kitchen is different than another kitchen."

In contrast, in the Kesté video, Mr. Roberto, at marks 0:07-1:07, confers:

"I measure the water [about 15 liters, as shown in the video, and 'fresh yeast is dissolved in warm water', per the subtitle]. . . and I put the water and fresh yeast inside the dough machine [which is an Italian fork mixer by Mecnosud, model FC60, with 60 Kg of dough capacity]. And, after that I put one bag of flour, 55 pounds [25 Kg], '00' Caputo flour [i.e., Caputo Pizzeria flour, per the video]. After 1 minute [of mixing], we add the salt, regular salt. That [the mixture] mixes for 20 minutes all together. After [mixing], we take that [the dough], put it inside a large container, plastic container, clear container [where the visible signs of fermentation can be readily viewed], and let it sit for 24 hours. Then, after that, we take the dough, roll it, and make the, in Naples we call, panielli [dough balls]. It [each dough ball] is between 260 and 270 grams. We revolve [or roll] it [the dough balls] and put inside the case [the proofing tray]. . . . Between 30 hours [to] 40 hours, we use the dough [balls]. . . . The amount of yeast is very small, so they rise in a very slow and natural way."

It is notable that in both videos, Mr. Roberto uses or appears to use:

1. About 15 Liters (15,000 grams) of water (which is 60% in relation to the weight of flour);
2. Minimal amount of fresh yeast (dissolved in the water prior to adding the flour and salt);
3. One 25 Kg bag of Caputo "Pizzeria" flour (entirely added to the yeast-water mixture at once);
4. Salt, the amount of which is not given, and its addition to the mixture of water, yeast, and flour is briefly (about 1 minute) delayed;
5. 20 minutes of mechanized mixing, using fork mixers;
6. 1 hour of initial fermentation ("direct method") at A Mano, and 24 hours of initial fermentation ("indirect method") at Kesté;
7. Dough balls of about 260 to 270 grams each; and
8. Cooler at A Mano, and ambient temperature at Kesté.

Have a great week!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:42:31 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline bakeshack

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  • Posts: 721
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1358 on: March 12, 2012, 05:25:45 AM »
Omid, thank you very much for the transcription and the video! 

Marlon



Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1378
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1359 on: March 13, 2012, 05:43:53 AM »
So what in the above mumbo jumbo causes the leopard spots :-D  omid your pizzas are works of art.

Dear Larry, perhaps, I may have an answer, as incomplete and mumbo-jumbo-ish as it might be! :-D In an earlier post, which I discount now because of its over-simplification (although "sugar" and its "kinetics" seem to be parts of an answer to your question!), I tried to explore this fascinating phenomenon. However, after my brief telephone conversation with my friend's wife, who is currently doing some kind of doctoral research in the fields of thermodynamics and continuum mechanics at the University of Berlin, I got hold of new concepts! Certain thermodynamic and chemico-mechanical reactions might be the causation underlying the charred blisters. Since such complex interdisciplinary reactions are out of my league, I will heavily rely on Wikipedia as a starting point to explore this subject.

The formation of charred blisters on the Neapolitan pizza cornicione, which has the visual effect of roundish black/brown spots that ornament leopard's fur, appear to be an upshot of a hyper-complex myriad of series of reactions which define the chars and their particular geometry. Some, not all, of the participating reactions, essentially involving the chemistry and physics of sugar molecules, seem to be as follows:

1. Caramelization Reaction:
Caramelization is said to be the thermal conversion of sugar to caramel, valued for its coloring and flavoring effects on various comestibles. Application of proper amount of heat to sugar [composed of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms, Cm(H2O)n] converts it to a brown substance, which is partly responsible for the browning of pizza crust and crown. Various sugars (e.g., fructose, galactose, glucose, sucrose, and maltose, some of which are present in wheat dough) are capable of caramelization at proper temperatures.

According to Wikipedia: "Caramelization is the browning of sugar, a process used extensively in cooking for the resulting nutty flavor and brown color. As the process occurs, volatile [i.e., kinetic] chemicals are released, producing the characteristic caramel flavor. Caramelization is a type of non-enzymatic browning [involving a chemical reaction known as] pyrolysis. (Enzymatic and non-enzymatic browning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-enzymatic_browning#Nonenzymatic_browning)

The caramelization reactions are also sensitive to the chemical environment. By controlling the level of acidity (pH), the reaction rate (or the temperature at which the reaction occurs readily) can be altered. The rate of caramelization is generally lowest at near-neutral acidity (pH around 7), and accelerated under both acidic (especially pH below 3) and basic (especially pH above 9) conditions.

Caramelization is a complex, poorly understood process that produces hundreds of chemical products, and includes the following types of reaction:

•Equilibration of anomeric and ring forms
•Sucrose inversion to fructose and glucose
•Condensation reactions
•Intramolecular bonding
•Isomerization of aldoses to ketoses
•Dehydration reactions
•Fragmentation reactions
•Unsaturated polymer formation."

2. Pyrolysis:
According to Wikipedia: "Pyrolysis is a thermochemical decomposition of organic material [such as the extant sugars in a wheat dough] at elevated temperatures without the participation of oxygen. (In practice, it is not possible to achieve a completely oxygen-free atmosphere. Because some oxygen is present in any pyrolysis system, a small amount of oxidation occurs.) It involves the simultaneous change of chemical composition and physical phase, and is irreversible. Pyrolysis is a case of thermolysis [chemical decomposition caused by heat], and is most commonly used for organic materials; therefore, being one of the processes involved in charring. In general, pyrolysis of organic substances produces gas and liquid products and leaves a solid residue richer in carbon content, char. Extreme pyrolysis, which leaves mostly carbon as the residue, is called carbonization [residues of which can be found on the surface of a pizza turning peel used to handle pizzas inside an oven].

Pyrolysis occurs whenever food is exposed to high enough temperatures in a dry environment, such as roasting, baking, toasting, grilling, etc. It is the chemical process responsible for the formation of the golden-brown crust in foods prepared by those methods. In normal cooking, the main food components that undergo pyrolysis are carbohydrates (including sugars, starch, and fibre) and proteins. (See: Maillard reaction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction)

Even though cooking is normally carried out in air, the temperatures and environmental conditions are such that there is little or no combustion of the original substances or their decomposition products. In particular, the pyrolysis of proteins and carbohydrates begins at temperatures much lower than the ignition temperature of the solid residue, and the volatile subproducts are too diluted in air to ignite. (In flambé dishes, the flame is due mostly to combustion of the alcohol, while the crust is formed by pyrolysis as in baking.) Pyrolysis of carbohydrates and proteins requires temperatures substantially higher than 100°C (212°F), so pyrolysis does not occur as long as free water is present, e.g., in boiling food—not even in a pressure cooker. When heated in the presence of water, carbohydrates and proteins suffer gradual hydrolysis rather than pyrolysis. Indeed, for most foods, pyrolysis is usually confined to the outer layers of food [such as the surface of pizza cornicione], and begins only after those layers have dried out.

Controlled pyrolysis of sugars starting at 170°C (338°F) produces caramel, a beige to brown water-soluble product. . . . Solid residue from the pyrolysis of spilled and splattered food creates the brown-black encrustation often seen on cooking vessels, stove tops, and the interior surfaces of ovens [including on the surfaces of pizza turning peels]."

3. Thermolysis:
Thermolysis is said to be a chemical decomposition reaction caused by heat. According to Wikipedia, the reaction "is usually endothermic [i.e., absorbing energy, such as decomposition of water into hydrogen and oxygen which requires heating to elevated temperatures] as heat is required to break chemical bonds in the compound undergoing decomposition. If decomposition is sufficiently exothermic [i.e., releasing energy, such as the release of heat and light from a wood burning], a positive feedback loop is created producing thermal runaway [i.e., an increase in temperature that changes the conditions in a way that cause a further increase in energy (heat), often leading to a destructive result] and possibly an explosion.

Some foods will decompose exothermically at cooking temperatures; anyone who has overheated sugar or syrupy foods will know how long they take to cool. Mild versions of the process will produce caramelized dishes that are pleasant, but cannot be tasted safely before they have cooled to a comfortable temperature. Once they start to char, such dishes commonly will continue in a positive feedback loop; they become dangerously hot and continue to blacken from the inside out, and smoke even well after being removed from the heat."

4. Charring:
Generally, “char” is said to be a particular substance that has been chemically reduced to carbon or charcoal by incomplete combustion. For instance, when heat is applied to the ordinary table sugar, it begins to oxidize and caramelize (as indicated above), reportedly forming chemical compounds such as aldehydes, ketones, carboxylic acids, and etc., which endow the transforming substance with the color, aroma, and flavor that are characteristic of caramelized sugar. As the application of heat persists, the caramelized sugar beings to decompose further, releasing water and carbon dioxide until it is reduced to carbon and some extra compounds.

According to Wikipedia: "Charring is a chemical process of incomplete combustion of certain solids when subjected to high heat. The resulting residue matter is called Char. By the action of heat, charring removes hydrogen and oxygen from the solid, so that the remaining char is composed primarily of carbon. Polymers like thermoset or most solid organic compounds like wood or biological tissue, exhibit charring behavior. Charring is the result of naturally occurring processes like fire but also a deliberate and controlled reaction used in the manufacturing of certain products."

5. Geometry of Chars:
The geometric shaping of chars under intense heat seems to be an equally interesting and complicated chemico-physical phenomenon that I have not begun studying. Perhaps, in future!

Conclusion:
If the above represents an explanation of the observed leoparding spots on the pizza cornicione, then the following factors seem to be contributive to their formation:

1. Sugars present in the dough during baking;
2. The pH level of the dough;
3. The level of dough fermentation and maturation, both of which have bearings on the pH level;
4. The temperature of the oven being used;
5. Presence of dry conditions (no “free water”) inside the oven; and
6. The temperature and dehydration rate of the surface of the cornicione during baking.

I hope you and your family are enjoying yourselves in Naples. Take care!

Regards,
Omid
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 04:23:59 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pulcinella

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  • Posts: 61
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1360 on: March 14, 2012, 09:43:54 PM »
Omid you said two things that really affected my daughter and I in making pizzas.

Since the role of language is tremendous, you need better formulation of the concepts "point of pasta", "fermentation", "levitation", "maturation", and "time". [There were more concepts which I can not remember.] They need to be precisely articulated without losing the ground on which they stand. Without them, you are not making pizzas, but accidents. Keep asking yourself what are the questions [or problems] to which these concepts are the answers. Formulate your questions carefully, as wrong questions will beg for wrong answers!

Formation of a good dough should not be accidental, but historical (i.e., objective-oriented), as seems to be the case with the tradition of the Neapolitan pizza.

this motivated us to make the index below, also for the sake of finding things faster in this thread that is getting too extensive to find things. I hope you do not mind. We propose others do the same or make a new thread that lists what is most important to them in making naples style pizzas. We thank every one for their contributions to this forum.  


Preface:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg144646.html#msg144646 (Reply #1)

History & Tradition:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160278.html#msg160278 (Reply #889)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162424.html#msg162424 (Reply #976)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162473.html#msg162473 (Reply #979)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162479.html#msg162479 (Reply #980)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162631.html#msg162631 (Reply #981)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162690.html#msg162690 (Reply #983)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162757.html#msg162757 (Reply #984, 985)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163109.html#msg163109 (Reply #994)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163110.html#msg163110 (Reply #995)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163601.html#msg163601 (Reply #1001)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163811.html#msg163811 (Reply #1018)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161417.html#msg161417 (Reply #961)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162181.html#msg162181 (Reply #965)

Art & Philosophy:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166251.html#msg166251 (Reply #1126)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg167323.html#msg167323 (Reply #1139)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169395.html#msg169395 (Reply #1184)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169762.html#msg169762 (Reply #1195)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163714.html#msg163714 (Reply #1010)

Flour, Dough, Fermentation, Leavening, Maturation, & Oxidation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171967.html#msg171967 (Reply #1262)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171985.html#msg171985 (Reply #1264)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174549.html#msg174549 (Reply #1308)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174738.html#msg174738 (Reply #1323)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174855.html#msg174855 (Reply #1334)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175439.html#msg175439 (Reply #1353)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175605.html#msg175605 (Reply #1356)

Dough Mixers:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164997.html#msg164997 (Reply #1060)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg150003.html#msg150003 (Reply #405)

Friction Factor & Desired Dough Temperature:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174856.html#msg174856 (Reply #1335)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174863.html#msg174863 (Reply #1338)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174884.html#msg174884 (Reply #1340)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174900.html#msg174900 (Reply #1342)

Point of Pasta:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149303.html#msg149303 (Reply #377)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149610.html#msg149610 (Reply #385)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154318.html#msg154318 (Reply #524)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154401.html#msg154401 (Reply #532)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155156.html#msg155156 (Reply #598)

Initial Short Fermentation vs Initial Long Fermentation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155395.html#msg155395 (Reply #611)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165901.html#msg165901 (Reply #1105)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172280.html#msg172280 (Reply #1271)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172531.html#msg172531 (Reply #1276)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172992.html#msg172992 (Reply #1287)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173163.html#msg173163 (Reply #1290)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174782.html#msg174782 (Reply #1325)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176044.html#msg176044 (Reply #1357)

Leoparding Effect:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176207.html#msg176207 (Reply #1359)

Oven & Flames:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154645.html#msg154645 (Reply #544)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154667.html#msg154667 (Reply #549)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154682.html#msg154682 (Reply #553)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154687.html#msg154687 (Reply #556)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166068.html#msg166068 (Reply #1123)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170359.html#msg170359 (Reply #1215)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170482.html#msg170482 (Reply #1222)

Neapolitan Wallet:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159586.html#msg159586 (Reply #837)

Dough Rheology:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159499.html#msg159499 (Reply #829)

Misc.:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160906.html#msg160906 (Reply #951)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161096.html#msg161096 (Reply #952)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164491.html#msg164491 (Reply #1038)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161287.html#msg161287 (Reply #957)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166834.html#msg166834 (Reply #1134)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg168654.html#msg168654 (Reply #1174)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173601.html#msg173601 (Reply #1294)

Videos:
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)

(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 1)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 2)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 3)
(Roberto Caporuscio)
http://www.travelchannel.com/Video/perfect-neapolitan-pizza-15494 (Anthony Bourdain at Pallone)
(Toto' Sapore)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Trianon)
(Iranian Baker)
http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough (Scottish Baker)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Franco Manca)
(Franco Manca)
(Gaetano Fazio)
(Gaetano Fazio)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=4IVVwV4tcuM (Trianon)
(Trianon)
(Un'Americana in Italia)
(Antonio Mattozzi)

(Gino Sorbillo)
(Salvo)
(Salvo)
http://pizzeriecampane.blogspot.com/2011/10/pizzeria-salvo-san-giorgio-cremano-na.html (Salvo)
(Ciro Salvo)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Keste)
(Pizza Punch)
(Singapour)
(Nicolas Supiot)
(Raffaele Vassallo)

Caputo Flours:
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf (Caputo '00' Pizzeria)
http://image.brickovenbaker.com/pdf/extratech.pdf (Caputo '00' Extra)
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/rinforzatotech.pdf (Caputo '00' Rinforzato)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 11:06:57 AM by Pulcinella »

Offline randyjohnsonhve

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 131
  • Location: Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1361 on: March 14, 2012, 11:12:59 PM »
Pulcinella....Thanks for the index on Omid....We learn so much from him, Craig and others, and now you have categorized his wisdom...Hats off to you for helping us all, RJelli  :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1378
  • Location: San Diego, CA
    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1362 on: March 15, 2012, 02:37:32 AM »
Omid you said two things that really affected my daughter and I in making pizzas. . . . this motivated us to make the index below, also for the sake of finding things faster in this thread that is getting too extensive to find things. I hope you do not mind. . . .

Dear Pulcinella, I do not mind it at all, and I am glad that I have been helpful in your pursuit. But, please keep in mind that I am no authority on Neapolitan pizza, although I try my earnest to educate myself on the subject. Be very critical in reading the posts, and I'd be grateful if you inform me of any inaccuracies or mistakes therein. Thank you!
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Ev

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1826
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Lancaster Co. Pa.
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1363 on: March 15, 2012, 10:19:06 AM »
Wow! I think this whole post deserves "sticky status" all by itself!


Omid you said two things that really affected my daughter and I in making pizzas.

this motivated us to make the index below, also for the sake of finding things faster in this thread that is getting too extensive to find things. I hope you do not mind. We propose others do the same or make a new thread that lists what is most important to them in making naples style pizzas. We thank every one for their contributions to this forum. 



Preface:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg144646.html#msg144646 (Reply #1)

History & Tradition:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160278.html#msg160278 (Reply #889)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162424.html#msg162424 (Reply #976)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162479.html#msg162479 (Reply #980)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162631.html#msg162631 (Reply #981)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162690.html#msg162690 (Reply #983)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162757.html#msg162757 (Reply #984, 985)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163109.html#msg163109 (Reply #994)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163110.html#msg163110 (Reply #995)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163601.html#msg163601 (Reply #1001)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163811.html#msg163811 (Reply #1018)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161417.html#msg161417 (Reply #961)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg162181.html#msg162181 (Reply #965)

Philosophy & Art:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166251.html#msg166251 (Reply #1126)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg167323.html#msg167323 (Reply #1139)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169395.html#msg169395 (Reply #1184)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg169762.html#msg169762 (Reply #1195)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg163714.html#msg163714 (Reply #1010)

Flour, Dough, Fermentation, Leavening, Maturation, & Oxidation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171967.html#msg171967 (Reply #1262)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg171985.html#msg171985 (Reply #1264)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174549.html#msg174549 (Reply #1308)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174738.html#msg174738 (Reply #1323)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174855.html#msg174855 (Reply #1334)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175439.html#msg175439 (Reply #1353)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg175605.html#msg175605 (Reply #1356)

Dough Mixers:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164997.html#msg164997 (Reply #1060)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg150003.html#msg150003 (Reply #405)

Friction Factor & Desired Dough Temperature:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174856.html#msg174856 (Reply # 1335)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174863.html#msg174863 (Reply #1338)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174884.html#msg174884 (Reply #1340)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174900.html#msg174900 (Reply #1342)

Point of Pasta:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149303.html#msg149303 (Reply #377)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg149610.html#msg149610 (Reply #385)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154318.html#msg154318 (Reply #524)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154401.html#msg154401 (Reply #532)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155156.html#msg155156 (Reply #598)

Initial Short Fermentation vs Initial Long Fermentation:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155395.html#msg155395 (Reply #611)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165901.html#msg165901 (Reply #1105)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172280.html#msg172280 (Reply #1271)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172531.html#msg172531 (Reply #1276)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172992.html#msg172992 (Reply #1287)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173163.html#msg173163 (Reply #1290)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176044.html#msg176044 (Reply #1357)

Leoparding Effect:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176207.html#msg176207 (Reply #1359)

Oven & Flames:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154645.html#msg154645 (Reply #544)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154667.html#msg154667 (Reply #549)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154682.html#msg154682 (Reply #553)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg154687.html#msg154687 (Reply #556)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166068.html#msg166068 (Reply #1123)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170359.html#msg170359 (Reply #1215)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg170482.html#msg170482 (Reply #1222)

Neapolitan Wallet:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159586.html#msg159586 (Reply #837)

Dough Rheology:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg159499.html#msg159499 (Reply #829)

Misc.:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg160906.html#msg160906 (Reply #951)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161096.html#msg161096 (Reply #952)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg164491.html#msg164491 (Reply #1038)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg161287.html#msg161287 (Reply #957)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg166834.html#msg166834 (Reply #1134)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg168654.html#msg168654 (Reply #1174)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173601.html#msg173601 (Reply #1294)


Videos:
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)

(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 1)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 2)
(Roberto Caporuscio, Part 3)
(Roberto Caporuscio)
http://www.travelchannel.com/Video/perfect-neapolitan-pizza-15494 (Anthony Bourdain at Pallone)
(Toto' Sapore)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Trianon)
(Iranian Baker)
http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough (Scottish Baker)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Documentary)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Franco Manca)
(Franco Manca)
(Gaetano Fazio)
(Gaetano Fazio)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=4IVVwV4tcuM (Trianon)
(Trianon)
(Un'Americana in Italia)
(Antonio Mattozzi)

(Gino Sorbillo)
(Salvo)
(Salvo)
http://pizzeriecampane.blogspot.com/2011/10/pizzeria-salvo-san-giorgio-cremano-na.html (Salvo)
(Ciro Salvo)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Pasquale Makishima)
(Da Michele)
(Da Michele)
(Keste)
(Pizza Punch)
(Singapour)
(Nicolas Supiot)
(Raffaele Vassallo)

Caputo Flours:
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/pizzeriatech.pdf (Caputo '00' Pizzeria)
http://image.brickovenbaker.com/pdf/extratech.pdf (Caputo '00' Extra)
http://brickovenbaker.com/docs/rinforzatotech.pdf (Caputo '00' Rinforzato)

Offline alex_chef2000

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1364 on: March 18, 2012, 11:51:03 PM »
  :chef: Water temperature in Celsius.

I have the advice of one of the best bakers in Lyon, France; about handling the best temperatures to make bread, you can use it for autolysis or to knead your pizza dough.

The magic number is 54 C.

So the formula is AT + FT + X = 54 C.

AT = Ambient Temperature.
FT = Flour Temperature.
X = ( Variant ) Water Temperature.

Example:

If your AT is 20 C + the FT 20 C ( usually are the same ) then you may need to use water at 14 C.

Little by little we are getting close to perfection....


My culinary regards,


Chef Alex.:


Offline randyjohnsonhve

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  • Location: Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1365 on: March 19, 2012, 12:28:44 AM »
 :chef: Water Temperature in Fahrenheit

The conversion is about 193 in F. 68F + 68F + 57F = 193  (+/-)1
Similar to 54 in C.-----------------22C + 22C + 10C = 54

RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1366 on: March 21, 2012, 07:02:47 AM »
er, 193F?  somethings not right here...

found this on ehow:

1
Find the published DDT (Desired Dough Temperature). This may be the hardest part of the process if the recipe you are using does not list a DDT. If you’re following a recipe without a listed DDT, try checking similar professional recipes and use their DDT for your own. If you can’t find a published DDT, try using 78 degrees. Most amateur baking recipes do not list a DDT.

2
Calculate the Total Temperature Factor (TTF). The TTF is simply the DDT multiplied by the number of known temperature factors involved. There are only 3 known temperature factors; flour temperature, room temperature and mixer friction. Therefore, to calculate the TTF, you will multiply the DDT by 3. For this example, we will use 78 degrees for the DDT. 78 times 3 equals 234. Therefore, the TTF is 234.

3
Determine the mixer friction value. Because movement generates heat, we must allow for the friction of the mixer when calculating our working dough temperature. Baking professionals give every minute a mixer is used a value of 2. Therefore, if your recipe calls for you to mix the dough in the mixer for 8 minutes, you will multiply 8 times 2 and have a mixer friction value of 16.

4
Add all the known temperature factors. Now, we have the mixer friction value and it’s easy to get the flour temperature and the room temperature with everyday thermometers. For this example, we’ll use a flour temperature of 60 degrees, and a room temperature of 70 degrees. By adding 16 plus 60 plus 70, we arrive at the number 146. Therefore, 146 is the sum of all known temperature factors.

5
Find the necessary temperature of the water by subtracting the sum of all known temperature factors from the TTF. The TTF we calculated in Step 2 was 234 and the sum of known temperatures factors was 146. After subtracting 146 from 234, we have the number 88. Therefore, you should use water that is exactly 88 degrees in temperature when making your dough.

6
Use the same equation every time you make your baked yeast product for uniform results. Professional bakers calculate the DDT every time they make dough for bread or baked goods. It's nice to know that you have control of the consistency of your dough. If you bake yeast products to sell, it's imperative.

Maybe Peter or someone who loves tinkering with math could refine this further...
regards
Brian

I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.


Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1367 on: March 21, 2012, 11:51:18 AM »

Much more to it than what I know...I simply tried to convert the previous post...To be consistent, you really need to know DDT for that dough recipe, and then the TTF so we can determine the temperature of the water...Do you have some parameters on pizza dough recipes based upon different hydration levels, i.e. 55%, 60% and 65%?

Appreciate your clarification,
RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1368 on: March 21, 2012, 02:18:51 PM »
I'm not sure that different hydration levels are going to make a difference in temperature calculations, with the possible exception of lower mixing friction for higher hydration dough.

In addition, Omid's Santos fork mixer may be different from the commercial mixers this process seems designed for.   

In my view, mixer friction is about 1/10th as important as room, water and resulting dough temp.  This results in a very empirical "measure as you go" approach to mixing- and that still requires knowing what temperature you want in the end.     
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1369 on: March 21, 2012, 03:01:13 PM »

Pizzaneer,

Opps...in the conversion, 10C = 50F, so the number would be 186...So in a house where the temperature is 70F, the water temperature should be 46F to match the Lyon, France formula...186 (-) 70 (-) 70 = 46...This does not account for the friction loss that you consider to be somewhat insignificant, unless you spent a long time in the mixer. Once again, thanks for the thoroughness of your response.

Sorry for the error,
RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1370 on: March 21, 2012, 07:05:52 PM »
I have generally been guided on this matter by what Tom Lehmann wrote in the article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. This past June (2011), Tom and others addressed this matter at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg143632.html#msg143632.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 11:35:10 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Drgolf369

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  • Location: Greenwich, Ct
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1371 on: March 27, 2012, 06:22:32 AM »
The dough balls look great. I have tried 65% hydration, 5 minute mixer at slow speed, 5 minute rest, 10 minute mix at slow speed, 2 hours bench then 18 hours at 55 degrees then 2 hours at room temperature. The dough balls run into each other. The dough is so soft that it can not be slapped. It requires too much flour to even disc it on the counter. I hold it on the back of my hands moving quickly allowing its own weight to stretch it into a disc. I am using Caputo 00 pizza flour.
If anyone is using this much hydration, there must be a great deal of water loss in the process.
Has anyone had this same experience?
Should I try less hydration and what percentage?
Thanks,
Joel

Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1372 on: March 27, 2012, 11:49:23 AM »

Drgolf...

I now use 65% hydration with 2.8% salt and 11.7% protein bread flour, 37F Spring Water...After achieving point of pasta by hand, I bulk rise for one hour at 68F and then squeeze off dough balls and retard at 37F for 24 hours, finish with 69F room rise for 2-3 hours. Works well here. The difference has to be 00 flour, and there may be some other factors such as humidity, salt, yeast, etc. I have learned that you keep trying with different formulas and times until you get what you like, and then, the seasons will change what you do. That is why, these pizzaiolas who are really good, have done it for years, and can read the conditions with their skin and instinctively know what to do...I am just a home guy who loves the challenge and continue to do things a little different in the hope of improving the final product...Good Luck

RJelli :chef:
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline Drgolf369

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1373 on: March 27, 2012, 12:42:40 PM »
Thanks for the reply Randy
I am like you, just a home guy with a passion
Joel

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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    • A Philosophy of Pizza Napoletanismo
Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1374 on: March 27, 2012, 11:38:58 PM »
Tonight's bake:

Flour: Caputo Pizzeria "00" (datum point)
Water: 62%
Sea Salt: 2.8%
Starter Culture: 1.93% (via water)
___________________________________________________________________________
Mix & knead time (using Santos fork mixer): 2 Minutes and 41 Seconds
Direct method: Water (67.8°F) ➡ Salt ➡ Culture ➡ Flour (65.4°F) = Dough (72.9°F)
Ambient temperature during mixing = 73°F
25 minutes of rest after kneading
___________________________________________________________________________
●1st phase of fermentation (in mass): 19.5 hours inside the marble chamber 65°F - 68°F
●2nd phase of fermentation (in balls): 4.5 hours at room temperature 70 - 71°F
___________________________________________________________________________
Baked in my modified home gas oven (871°F Floor)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 11:49:08 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/