Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!  (Read 172457 times)

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Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1500 on: June 20, 2012, 09:13:06 PM »
Pizzaioula......

A perfect Italian name for a French bulldog! :D

She is beautiful, best wishes for the entire Omid family.  Enjoy her in good health!
Paolo

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1501 on: June 21, 2012, 04:47:44 PM »
hi omid, I'm excited that you are getting a new oven. are you getting a standard oven or will it be modified? i also want to tell you how much i am enjoying your blog.i am printing it one section at a time. this will be my go to reading material on all things pizza napoletana.


Dear Larry, I am getting a Forno Piccolo (by Forno Classico), which is a small size wood-fired oven. The internal floor diameter is about 24.5 inches. Initially I planned to get a larger Piccolo, with 32 inches of internal floor diameter and equipped with the same type of exhaust system as a Neapolitan oven. However, my landlord frustrated my plan! She would not permit me to dismantle the wooden fence in order to bring the oven inside the patio. The good thing is that since the Piccolo that I am getting is small, I will be able to, unlike previous times, take it with me wherever I move to, either an apartment or another house. My oven will look like the Piccolo exhibited in the pictures below, except it will be all white.

In regard to the blog (http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/), It has been an interesting project for me. It is more or less based on some of the content reflected in this thread, but in a more refined and organized manner. It will take me about 9 or more months to finish this project. Have a great day!

Regards,
Omid
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1502 on: June 21, 2012, 05:03:34 PM »
Dear friends, thank you for all your comments!

Those french like to smoke  keep her off  the butts if possible

Dear John, are you serious about Frenchies liking to smoke cigarettes? :-D

"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1503 on: June 22, 2012, 06:10:57 PM »
You are kidding about the fence....right?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1504 on: June 23, 2012, 03:55:45 PM »
You are kidding about the fence....right?

Dear Bob, unfortunately, that is the state of affairs. I should mention that I will feel lucky even if the small Forno Piccolo can make it through the two gates to the patio. The first gate (which conjoins the second gate at a perpendicular angle) may not be wide enough. I may need to tilt the Piccolo in order to take it through the two gates. These ovens, including Neapolitan ovens, are not supposed to be tilted during transportation. Have a great weekend!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1505 on: June 23, 2012, 05:36:51 PM »
Dear Bob, unfortunately, that is the state of affairs. I should mention that I will feel lucky even if the small Forno Piccolo can make it through the two gates to the patio. The first gate (which conjoins the second gate at a perpendicular angle) may not be wide enough. I may need to tilt the Piccolo in order to take it through the two gates. These ovens, including Neapolitan ovens, are not supposed to be tilted during transportation. Have a great weekend!
Omid,

In my line of work (auto restoration) we sometimes require the assistance of one of these...http://www.amazon.com/ATD-ATD-7430-1000-Telescopic-Transmission/dp/B000OV5BY0/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_4     This is an inexpensive model and there are others that can lift much more weight . Maybe this could help you avoid the tilting issue you've mentioned.

I believe this tool can also be available on an hourly rental basis....just a thought.
Hope you enjoy the weekend also.

Bob
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 05:41:30 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Redshirt

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1506 on: June 24, 2012, 08:03:50 AM »
Omid, how many people do you think would take to lift/get your oven over the fence? 

Maybe some of us that live close to Omid should plan a little trip (if he permits) help him with the oven and then go and celebrate over at Bruno's?  Omid would you let us?  What do you guys think?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1507 on: June 24, 2012, 11:53:46 AM »
Set it up on 2 lengths of I-beam and carry it emperor's chair style.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline weissblut

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1508 on: June 26, 2012, 06:13:34 AM »
Hello everyone!

I'm kind of new on the forum, but I "lurked" from the dark for a long time. First of all I want to say that this thread is AMAZING. the passion and the knowledge is great here, it is really inspiring and helpful!

To the majority of you that don't know me, I'm a neapolitan guy living abroad. I've lived in Naples for many years, and have had the big luck of eating Da Michele thousands times. And even if pizzerie like Pellone, Sorbillo, Trianon are really good, the only one that I recall coming close to Michele is Port'Alba (Neaples as well).

In my years out of my country, I've come to the conclusion that Neapolitans - let's say, all italians! are really good at judging pizza, but not that good in baking one. I mean, as you can have a wonderful pizza whenever you want for a little price, and as you don't have a oven to properly bake one, you never study properly the art behind it (unless you're a Pizzaiolo). So the pizzas that I've tasted in my life at home are always "different" from the NEapolitans ones.

But this forum gave me the inspiration to try. To study, to perfection. And even if I don't have a proper oven but a simple home electric one, I feel like I'm learning a new instrument. When I first started learning guitar, years ago, I did not need a fancy one. I needed a basic, "study" guitar. So I will consider my oven and my limits (the temperature, the 3 heating factors, etc) as a way to learn more. Before having the perfect instrument, I have to earn the right with the proper technique. Will come the day when I'll have a proper WFO and will bake myself a wonderful pizza!!! :)

Also, I've to say that with the help of (mainly) John (dellavecchia) and some other users of the forums, I've reached a "good" result. For my friend is amazing with a home oven, but I've seen also users like Infodeel baking wonderful pies in an unmod oven. The point is not where you are or what you can do, but What do you want to achieve. So if for normal people "baking pizza" is a hobby and as soon as they get a decent result they are happy, for me is a passion that I will carry on forward all my life.

This long introduction is to create the proper background for my questions. So you have now my profile - a beginner, with a home oven, and a lot of passion (I've started my own "Pasta Madre" and now it smells like champagne - will try in a couple of weeks to see how much levain power has!).

So, one thing I've learn, is that a lot of people think a lot of different things. So, the point I've learned is, there is no secret ingredients, no perfect recipe, no good or bad method - there is difference. That's why Michele and Sorbillo are different yet both amazing; you've to find your way to bake YOUR perfect pizza. Don't let anyone else say different. If someone gives you the perfect recipe, argue it. The thing you're looking for is not the proportion of the ingredients. You can learn from that, and learn from the experience of other people, but the real thing that will "break" the pizza is balance. You've to understand what thing creates what results, and try to balance it to reach the result desired.

So, apart from the heat - and the kind of heat, as discussed in induction, convection, conduction etc - and apart from the oven, I strongly believe I have to understand how the dough really works. And even if I made my way into this forum (and especially this thread, that took me one month to fully read!!) and have understood a couple of important thing, I would like to ask you, skilled users, to "simplify". In the end, we all are searching for Neapolitan Pizza, which is "simple".

So, for the sake of us beginner, can you please help me understand the role of every ingredient / method in the dough? I understood, for example, that I want to bake with Pasta Madre, for the sour flavour. That I want to do a ferment of  x + Y, where x is a much smaller time of bulk ferment and Y is a long time of ball ferment. I understood this because I've seen a difference in the fermentation related to the kind of "bubbles" you'll find in the crust. the kind x + Y works for my kind of pizza, as I love big holes in the crumb. Also, I've understood that with a longer fermentation you can "stretch" the gluten web, thus having a softer dough. Also, I've understood that hydration is important both for the kind of the dough and for the leoparding and for the bake time - which for me is crucial, as I cannot get over (at the moment) a MAX of 600F (and I don't really want to mod the oven).

I understood that the dough ball is never to be pressed, but "stretched" to help the oxigen concentrate in the crust. In my experience, I understood that more salt means better intake of water from flour, but too much salt = too elastic and gummy dough.

Those are understanding of my readings, but as this thread is - in some parts - very very technical, I would really love to create a "Guide to the interactions of the elements of the dough" to help all the readers that are beginners (like me) not to be scared by all those wonderful knowledge you have.

I'm actually talking to Omid. Omid, your passion, knowledge and dedication has amazed me. Thanks for all your time and spirit, this is a rare pearl nowadays. I would like to help build such a thing - and I'm actually an egoistic being, because doing so, I would learn and experiment a lot.

Thanks you all for your incredible help!

Dario

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1509 on: June 26, 2012, 11:01:53 AM »
Dario,

You can count me in....see signature below.   ;)

Bob                                                       
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1510 on: June 28, 2012, 03:03:03 AM »
Omid,
In my line of work (auto restoration) we sometimes require the assistance of one of these...http://www.amazon.com/ATD-ATD-7430-1000-Telescopic-Transmission/dp/B000OV5BY0/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_4     This is an inexpensive model and there are others that can lift much more weight . Maybe this could help you avoid the tilting issue you've mentioned.

I believe this tool can also be available on an hourly rental basis....just a thought.
Hope you enjoy the weekend also.

Bob


Omid, how many people do you think would take to lift/get your oven over the fence? 

Maybe some of us that live close to Omid should plan a little trip (if he permits) help him with the oven and then go and celebrate over at Bruno's?  Omid would you let us?  What do you guys think?


Dear friends, I thank you all for your amicable suggestions. You guys are great! I have already arranged for professional machine movers to take care of the job. But I'm always up for celebration! Let me know. Again, I sincerely thank you guys for everything. Good day!

Regards,
Omid
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline JConk007

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1511 on: June 28, 2012, 08:26:29 AM »
Omid I just LOVE the Margherita Color scheme!
Just kidding on the smoking, I just remember  the few french based friend I had were allways allways smoking.
How is your Precious  little Pizzaiola doing ??
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1512 on: June 29, 2012, 06:12:12 PM »
Hello everyone! . . .

Dear Dario, welcome to this forum! I thank you for your generous compliments and for taking time to provide us with all the information in your post. I hope you acquire your dream oven sooner or later. I agree that, if I have understood your position correctly, it is advisable to be the poet of one's own pizza—within the framework of the Neapolitan tradition, if the tradition matters to you. Da Michele, Port'Alba, Sorbillo, and etc. serve as good examples, as you already mentioned. They are all different; nonetheless, Neapolitan!

In regard to your concern (i.e., "Can you please help me understand the role of every ingredient / method in the dough?"), I have already written, according to what I know, extensively throughout this thread on this topic. Many other members have written illuminating posts on this topic as well. As you have already realized, one way is to initially understand the nature of each medium of this art: water, salt, fermentative agent, and flour in relation to what you desire to accomplish with the tools (such as the mixer and oven) that are available to you. And, of course, persistently experimenting and learning from the experiments is of vital importance. Through repetition, discipline, and objectively evaluating the fruits of your work, you can refine your methodology and techniques. You may like to create your own thread in this forum, wherein you can record your progress while interacting with other members. This can be a great learning tool!

I look forward to seeing your results. I wish you the best!

Regards,
Omid
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1513 on: June 29, 2012, 07:54:15 PM »
So, one thing I've learn, is that a lot of people think a lot of different things. So, the point I've learned is, there is no secret ingredients, no perfect recipe, no good or bad method - there is difference.

I completely agree that there are no secret ingredients or perfect recipe.  There are a lot of ways to skin the cat, so to speak. I disagree that there are no bad methods.

Quote
The thing you're looking for is not the proportion of the ingredients. You can learn from that, and learn from the experience of other people, but the real thing that will "break" the pizza is balance. You've to understand what thing creates what results, and try to balance it to reach the result desired.

Yes, balance is key and there are many more dimensions that are immediately obvious. Some of which you have to discover on your own – particularly those around the dough. Shared experience is great, but there is no substitute for hands on experience. This is how you know what does what, what changes what, etc., and how to improvise, adapt, and overcome.

Quote
I would like to ask you, skilled users, to "simplify". In the end, we all are searching for Neapolitan Pizza, which is "simple"… So, for the sake of us beginner, can you please help me understand the role of every ingredient / method in the dough?

Dario, as you noted, there are many ways to get to the same place. In this forum, you have incredible access to experienced people who go at the problem from many different directions. For example, I am happy to help you with questions of tiny quantities of natural cultures and long room temp fermentation, but I know little of baker’s yeast and cold fermentation. Others can speak with knowledge on these areas and beyond. When you ask a general question, you may get so many varied answers, it may be difficult to distill out the information you really need.

I would encourage you to ask specific questions rather than broad general questions. I think the responses you get will much more useable and implementable with respect to the way you want to accomplish what you want to accomplish. 

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1514 on: June 30, 2012, 02:59:57 PM »
Omid I just LOVE the Margherita Color scheme!
Just kidding on the smoking, I just remember  the few french based friend I had were allways allways smoking.
How is your Precious  little Pizzaiola doing ??
John

Dear John, Pizzaiola is doing fine, thanks for asking. Currently, she is occupying most of my time as she is a puppy who needs a lot of care and attention. This is my very first time having a puppy, and I do not find it easy raising her. Because of her, I have had to abandon many of my daily routines. But I love her and would sacrifice immeasurably for her to be raised as a good canine citizen. Once she is fully house-broken and potty trained, her pizza training will begin!

Regards,
Omid
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline weissblut

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1515 on: July 05, 2012, 10:02:20 AM »
Ok guys,

thanks you all! I understand and that's my approach. It's like a zen-like experience, the search for perfection - but is any deep and true research, nothing but the search for perfection? And is our idea of perfection strictly related to God? I don't wanna be philosophical but that's my opinion. And as any of us has a different image of God, we all will have different pizzas.

Now, back to the matter...

I'm experimenting once/twice a week. No oven modding as I rent my house and don't wanna create disasters. My aim is to create a mini-oven inside the oven, so that the part with the probe will be around 500F but the part where I cook the pizza will arrive at least at 650F (air temp). This will take time and study.

So far I've got two questions:

1. I'm using a cheap pizza stone. The max temp I reached on the surface was around 630F. This means, a very little charring. So I was thinking if there is another material which will lead me to better results in this way. I've read of people using steel.... suggestions?
2. What is REALLY the role of salt in the dough? I've noticed myself that more salt=more water absorption, but I fear that will make the dough too much elastic as well...

So, last weekend I've made a 5+25 hours fermented dough, the final part was terrible as the balls attached to the cling film and so it was a disaster to shape the pizzas... oven @ max temp (stone 650F, top broiler 680F), that's the best result I've had so far (even if I've had problems with the dough balls!).

Thanks!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1516 on: July 05, 2012, 11:29:14 AM »
2. What is REALLY the role of salt in the dough? I've noticed myself that more salt=more water absorption, but I fear that will make the dough too much elastic as well...

It has important effects on enzymatic and fermentation activity, but also, and not the least of which, flavor.

Like just about everything else, it is a matter of balance you have to fine tune for your own unique situation.

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1517 on: July 25, 2012, 10:23:32 AM »
 
Dear Larry, I am getting a Forno Piccolo (by Forno Classico), which is a small size wood-fired oven. The internal floor diameter is about 24.5 inches. Initially I planned to get a larger Piccolo, with 32 inches of internal floor diameter and equipped with the same type of exhaust system as a Neapolitan oven. However, my landlord frustrated my plan! She would not permit me to dismantle the wooden fence in order to bring the oven inside the patio. The good thing is that since the Piccolo that I am getting is small, I will be able to, unlike previous times, take it with me wherever I move to, either an apartment or another house. My oven will look like the Piccolo exhibited in the pictures below, except it will be all white.


Regards,
Omid
Omid, I received and been using the Forno Piccolo for a week now and I have to admit that this oven is AWESOME!

It makes a beginner like me look half way decent, plus the pizzas taste great!

Will post some pics as soon as I figure out how to do that.....
Paolo

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1518 on: July 26, 2012, 05:23:18 PM »
Omid, I received and been using the Forno Piccolo for a week now and I have to admit that this oven is AWESOME!
It makes a beginner like me look half way decent, plus the pizzas taste great!
Will post some pics as soon as I figure out how to do that.....

Dear Paolo, I congratulate you on your new wood-fired oven. I should receive my Forno Piccolo this Monday. Below is a picture of it under construction. I will showcase its capabilities after I receive it. Good day!

Regards,
Omid
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline wheelman

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Re: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO!
« Reply #1519 on: July 26, 2012, 05:57:30 PM »
Omid,
i can't wait to see what comes out of that!  Cheers,
bill