Author Topic: A PHILOSOPHY OF PIZZA NAPOLETANISMO! (Read 170905 times)

Pizza Napoletana · « **Reply #1720 on:** November 02, 2012, 04:36:41 AM »

Quote from: R2-Bayou on November 01, 2012, 01:40:50 PM

Never really noticed ash guards in ovens before, but now I'm seeing them in some of the ovens I photographed in Italy. This one is in Bologna at Michelemma...

Thank you for the picture.

BrickStoneOven · « **Reply #1721 on:** November 02, 2012, 09:50:40 AM »

Craig mentioned in an early post that you would probably have to leave it in there till it reached temp. Though the oven itself was at temp the wood wasn't and thats probably why there was a lot of smoke. I'm wondering if you left the torch in there while the wood was in or did you add the wood and take out the torch? Maybe if you kept both together it would help eliminate the smoke until you had a decent size pile of coals to aid in the smoke elimination. Also how dry is the wood?

Try starting from the beginning with the torch and wood like in this video of Bill instead of using the torch to get the oven to temp then adding the wood

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isbfZSC_5Pk&list=UU4xkNAd9xFpDfnaw7t5j1gg&index=6&feature=plcp" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isbfZSC_5Pk&list=UU4xkNAd9xFpDfnaw7t5j1gg&index=6&feature=plcp</a>

.

I'm sorry for all the trouble you're going through just to make a couple pizzas at home.

Pizza Napoletana · « **Reply #1722 on:** November 02, 2012, 03:59:51 PM »

Quote from: BrickStoneOven on November 02, 2012, 09:50:40 AM

Craig mentioned in an early post that you would probably have to leave it in there till it reached temp. Though the oven itself was at temp the wood wasn't and thats probably why there was a lot of smoke. I'm wondering if you left the torch in there while the wood was in or did you add the wood and take out the torch? Maybe if you kept both together it would help eliminate the smoke until you had a decent size pile of coals to aid in the smoke elimination. Also how dry is the wood?

Try starting from the beginning with the torch and wood like in this video of Bill instead of using the torch to get the oven to temp then adding the wood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isbfZSC_5Pk&list=UU4xkNAd9xFpDfnaw7t5j1gg&index=6&feature=plcp.

I'm sorry for all the trouble you're going through just to make a couple pizzas at home.

Dear friend, I thank you for your response and sympathy! To answer your question, yes, I added the wood logs inside the oven while torching them after I brought the dome temperature to about 900°F, yet the smoke coming out of the oven mouth was overwhelming. The top half of my patio was filled with thick smoke, which had never happened before with such intensity. (I am thinking about getting an industrial fan to vent out the smoke from the patio.) The wood logs were pretty dry and well-seasoned. However, they were kind of cold as the temperature inside the patio was about 68°F or lower, if I remember correctly. I thank you for your guidance, and I will keep experimenting until I find a way. Thank you!

Pizza Napoletana · « **Reply #1723 on:** November 02, 2012, 04:00:09 PM »

Quote from: Pizza Napoletana on November 01, 2012, 07:42:29 PM

Flour: 1400 Caputo Pizzeria "00" (Datum Point)
Water: 910 gr. (65%)
Sea Salt: 41 gr. (2.93%)
Fresh Yeast: 1.30 gr. (0.092%)

Dough Mixer: Santos Fork Mixer
Duration of mixing & Kneading: 4 minutes & 16 seconds
Using the direct method of dough production: Water (75.4ᵒF) ➞ Salt ➞ Fresh Yeast ➞ Flour (68.9ᵒF) = Dough (74.6ᵒF) [Room Temp. 71ᵒF]

Dough ball weight: 250 to 260 grams each

Duration of the initial fermentation: 2 hours at room temperature (70-71ᵒF)
Duration of the final fermentation: 20 hours inside the marble chamber (65ᵒF)

About 30 minutes ago, I checked the condition of the dough balls that I prepared two days ago:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg220852.html#msg220852

The third picture, below, shows the physical condition of the dough balls after a total of 50 hours and 20 minutes of the final fermentation. For the first 20 hours of the final fermentation, the dough balls were kept inside my marble chamber at 65°F. Thereafter, the dough balls were kept at room temperature (69-71°F) for about 1 hour while I tried to prime my wood-fired oven yesterday morning. At last, after I aborted heating up my oven, the dough balls were returned to the marble chamber and kept at 60°F for 29 hours and 20 minutes. Too bad I could not turn the dough balls into pizzas yesterday. Good day!

bakeshack · « **Reply #1724 on:** November 02, 2012, 04:42:00 PM »

Omid, I feel bad for your situation. After spending money on the oven and getting your hopes up, this is what you get. I can already feel the frustration. I would suggest, if time permits, that you fire up your oven late in the evening when everyone in your neighborhood is asleep. Even if you get the temp to about 600-700F then leave the coals inside the oven and close the door. The following morning when you are ready to bake, it will be much easier to light up the wood with minimal smoke (maybe for about 1-2 mins only). The venting on your oven is the main culprit since the opening looks small. I wish they had the vent opening to be more lateral than round.

Marlon

fornographer · « **Reply #1725 on:** November 02, 2012, 05:03:02 PM »

Hi Omid. I have a similarly sized oven in the Forno Bravo Andiamo 70 and am afflicted with the same problem with smoke coming out of the front. I use a simple technique to minimize the problem. If your oven came with a door, try partially closing the oven. This allows the smoke to be funneled through the vent. It's a "there, I fixed it!" kinda fix.

fornographer · « **Reply #1726 on:** November 02, 2012, 05:40:50 PM »

I should add that if you have wood that is not seasoned, it would not matter. After I fully fire up the oven, I can add logs with little or no smoke when using wood that have a moisture level of 15% or less.

Pizza Napoletana · « **Reply #1727 on:** November 03, 2012, 01:48:36 AM »

Quote from: bakeshack on November 02, 2012, 04:42:00 PM

Omid, I feel bad for your situation. After spending money on the oven and getting your hopes up, this is what you get. I can already feel the frustration. I would suggest, if time permits, that you fire up your oven late in the evening when everyone in your neighborhood is asleep. Even if you get the temp to about 600-700F then leave the coals inside the oven and close the door. The following morning when you are ready to bake, it will be much easier to light up the wood with minimal smoke (maybe for about 1-2 mins only). The venting on your oven is the main culprit since the opening looks small. I wish they had the vent opening to be more lateral than round.

Marlon

Quote from: fornographer on November 02, 2012, 05:03:02 PM

Hi Omid. I have a similarly sized oven in the Forno Bravo Andiamo 70 and am afflicted with the same problem with smoke coming out of the front. I use a simple technique to minimize the problem. If your oven came with a door, try partially closing the oven. This allows the smoke to be funneled through the vent. It's a "there, I fixed it!" kinda fix.

Dear friends, I sincerely appreciate all your help! I could be wrong, but I think a reason for the failure two days ago was that I did not torch the oven long enough. I remember when the dome was about 900°F, the arch was cold to my touch. I am going to wake up at 3:00 AM tomorrow morning to torch the oven for two hours or until I can feel the warmth outside on the arch. Meanwhile, I will maintain minimum amount of wood on the floor throughout torching the oven interior. At last, when I feel the oven is hot enough, both inside and outside, I will begin to place wood logs inside the oven more than bare minimum. Hopefully, it will be still dark by the time I get the fire really going. This way the smoke should be mostly invisible in the dark. (This sounds like a covert operation!

)

I already prepared some dough this morning, as shown in the pictures below. The dough balls should be ready by 6:00 AM tomorrow morning. Good night and, again, thank you for all your help!

Regards,
Omid

Pulcinella · « **Reply #1728 on:** November 03, 2012, 02:49:21 AM »

Omid I'm sorry about your oven problems. I hope you can make your oven work tomorrow. Could you please make another video showing how you launch your pizzas on oven floor if your oven works? I really suck at it. I purchased a perforated aluminium pizza peel from gmetal. Too much air trapped under pizza when I use it. I find it more stickier than wooden peels. I wish you the best.

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #1729 on:** November 03, 2012, 08:36:17 AM »

Nobody would complain about your smoke if you lived in Texas. Hint. Hint...

pizza dr · « **Reply #1730 on:** November 03, 2012, 04:58:10 PM »

Omid

I think I may have some thing for you to try..For the longest time I was having problems with the wood I was receiving... it was not seasoned properly and I was having a lot of problems with start ups ( and lots of smoke). I started to "kiln" dry my wood in the oven after every use.

So I would put the "green" wood in the oven about an hour or two after I was done making my pizzas (the oven was usually around 400 degrees measured at the floor) and then use that kiln dried wood for subsequent firings whenever I wanted. The wood becomes supremely dry and combustible.

I was having a party one weekend so I started a "primer fire" the evening before so that I could dry out some more wood for the party. I put the green wood in the oven ( after the coals were swept out) a little hotter than normal ( maybe 500). The next day I cracked the door open and the wood looked like big pieces of charcoal. The fire started very easy and very little smoke.

Perhaps you can heat the oven with your cactus burner, put the wood in without lighting it, shut the door and let it sit for several hours. Then light your fire. I think you will find that this process will produce the least amount of smoke

Good luck!

Scot

ps... New Mexico aint a bad place either

Pizza Napoletana · « **Reply #1731 on:** November 03, 2012, 06:35:53 PM »

Quote from: Pulcinella on November 03, 2012, 02:49:21 AM

Omid I'm sorry about your oven problems. I hope you can make your oven work tomorrow. Could you please make another video showing how you launch your pizzas on oven floor if your oven works? I really suck at it. I purchased a perforated aluminium pizza peel from gmetal. Too much air trapped under pizza when I use it. I find it more stickier than wooden peels. I wish you the best.

Dear Pulcinella, this issue of loading raw pizzas on the oven floor is a critical and consequential subject, which is imperatively interconnected with the preceding stages of pizza-making: forming dough balls, maturation, drafting dough discs, and loading them onto the pizza peel. Thank you for bringing up this important subject. I invite everyone's contributions.

This morning I woke up at 3:00 AM to torch my wood-fired oven. Unfortunately, my propane tank quickly ran out, and I could not heat up my oven. How unlucky? Nonetheless, I used the dough, which I had prepared yesterday morning, for the purpose of demonstrating in a video how I launch my raw pizza discs inside the oven, using my pizza bench as though it were the oven floor. Here is a link to the video on Youtube:

This is a sphere of activity that I keep improving my performance therein. It truly requires awful lot of practice and experience, doing it over and over and over again. It also requires a great deal of consideration:

1. What kind of dough is going to top the peel?
2. How well was the dough developed?
3. How skillfully was it turned into dough balls?
4. How well did the dough balls reach maturation?
5. How skillfully are the dough balls taken out of dough tray without being irretrievably deformed or damaged?
6. How well are the balls drafted into dough discs, and how much flour should be used in doing so?
7. How heavy are the toppings? How well are they distributed? Is any tomato sauce going to be used (acidity of which can render the dough disc, below it, more fragile and vulnerable)?
8. What is a right type of pizza peel to use? Heavy or light? Thick or thin peel? Round, square, or roundish square? Wooden, aluminum, or steel peel? Short or long handle? How about the size of the peel?
9. How much should the work surface and pizza peel be dusted?
10. How should the peel be burdened with the raw pizza disc?
11. How should the peel approach the oven floor or what should be the "angle of entry" when the burdened peel enters inside the oven before the launch, considering that the space close to the dome is much hotter than the space close to the floor?
12. How should the peel-handle be held?
13. What should be the angle of the peel surface (the "pull-angle") in relation to the surface of the oven floor at the moment of launch?
14. Should the dough disc, resting on the peel, be slid forward and thrown on the oven floor while maintaining some space between the peel and oven floor? Or, should the entire bottom surface of the peel touch the floor while pulling back the handle? Or should the front portion of the peel only come in contact with the floor, at a proper angle, at the moment of launch?
15. How much pull-back force should be applied in pulling the handle at the moment of launch?
16. Should the peel under the dough disc be pulled back incrementally or swiftly in one decisive move at the moment of launch?
17. Etc.

As you can see, some of the questions above are circumstantial, that they depend on various variables and conditions to answer them. Moreover, one's personal preferences also matter. Nonetheless, the main point remains, that launching a raw pizza inside an oven is much more than just shaping a dough disc, dragging it onto a peel, and loading it inside the oven—particularly when one has to perform this activity in a commercial environment where there is little or no room for making mistakes.

There are a great many videos, better than mine, on Youtube that one can really learn from. I have included some of them below. In this sphere of activity, I have not gotten as good as I like to be, yet I keep insatiably practicing until I get there. my personal conviction, in this undertaking, is that, one has got to accept the challenge to push oneself farther and farther, investing enough time and practice sessions in order to clear the mind from doubts and to gain the necessary skills and confidence—which do not come easy.

In my video, I utilized the same type of perforated G.I.Metal peel as you described above, except I do not know if yours is round or square, short or long handle. My peel is round (13 inches in diameter, which is the smallest in this category) with a long handle. The Caputo Pizzeria dough used in my video is hydrated at 64% and fermented (using sourdough culture) for a total of 29 hours at controlled room temperature. Although the dough balls possessed favorable constitution, they were tender and delicate, requiring soft and cautious handling.

Below are the educational videos. (As you view them, be attentive to the approach angles (angles of entry), pull-back angles, styles, and other considerations I enumerated above.) Good day!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2epVMRn-kVQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2epVMRn-kVQ</a>

(Da Michele)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O57RJlb71DY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O57RJlb71DY</a>

(Salvo)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q3-gVr9gBQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q3-gVr9gBQ</a>

(Da Gaetano)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTATDZoCJSw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTATDZoCJSw</a>

(Kesté, see time-mark 1:24)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAaGZp05CRU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAaGZp05CRU</a>

(Franco Manca)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leLlcqCFVdU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leLlcqCFVdU</a>

(La Tana dell'Arte)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6ajP9Ckuk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6ajP9Ckuk</a>

(Pirozzi)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lglRBt01RC8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lglRBt01RC8</a>

(Pasquale Makashima)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS3RBheswmU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS3RBheswmU</a>

(Pasquale Makashima)

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #1732 on:** November 03, 2012, 06:46:19 PM »

Quote from: TXCraig1 on November 03, 2012, 08:36:17 AM

Nobody would complain about your smoke if you lived in Texas. Hint. Hint...

Really...grow a couple an get on with it, wherever.....

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #1733 on:** November 03, 2012, 07:08:47 PM »

Quote from: Chicago Bob on November 03, 2012, 06:46:19 PM

Really...grow a couple an get on with it, wherever.....

Would you just explode if you didn't comment on every post in this forum?

Mangia Pizza · « **Reply #1734 on:** November 03, 2012, 07:14:33 PM »

Quote from: TXCraig1 on November 03, 2012, 07:08:47 PM

Would you just explode if you didn't comment on every post in this forum?

+1

dellavecchia · « **Reply #1735 on:** November 03, 2012, 07:38:20 PM »

Omid - that was an outstanding post. I would like to know if the preferred method of launch is about catching a side or front of the disc, or it is about literally pulling the peel out from under the dough with the fastest motion possible? Your video seems to show the latter, but I am not entirely sure.

John

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #1736 on:** November 03, 2012, 07:40:01 PM »

Quote from: TXCraig1 on November 03, 2012, 07:08:47 PM

Would you just explode if you didn't comment on every post in this forum?

Merely repeating something you once said to me.....friendly poster. It was funny to you back then....right?
btw, I think your math skills are adequate to see that you are involved in many more posts than I ....maybe it's just that what I have to say seems to resonate. I like to think of it as more of a soulfulness approach that CB has....but hey, there's really not that many counting ,my pizza pal....relax.

scott123 · « **Reply #1737 on:** November 03, 2012, 08:03:47 PM »

Omid, I haven't read every single post on this thread, so this may have already been mentioned, but I think, in order to appease your neighbors, prevent 911 calls, and make for the happiest possible fire inspector, I really think you should take a traditional approach with the chimney configuration- straight up. Your patio ceiling looks like it could be a hassle to work with, but a good craftsman should be able to knock a hole through it and accommodate a straight vertical run of pipe. After you clear the ceiling, put in a 45 degree elbow so that the pipe points towards the peak of the house. Attach the pipe to the roof with a bracket and run it as many more feet that you need to according to code.

The higher you vent the smoke, the less will go into the neighbor's windows. Even if they do get some smoke, you can say, "look, I shelled out x amount of money to take this smoke as far as I physically could from your home." With a chimney attached to and above the house, you've mimicked the smoke venting of an indoor fireplace- which, even for houses that are close together, should be very benign. Also, because the pipe is so high, it should be visible from the street. If passersby can look up and see a pipe with smoke coming out of it, they'll be much less likely to call 911.

This is going to be a lot of pipe, and it won't be cheap, but I think, if you take your horizontal run and point it vertical, you're already a good portion of the way to the house roof. Flashing where the pipe comes out of the patio roof will keep the patio dry.

Mangia Pizza · « **Reply #1738 on:** November 03, 2012, 08:59:20 PM »

Omid, cool video....

Pizza Napoletana · « **Reply #1739 on:** November 05, 2012, 01:46:49 AM »

Quote from: pizza dr on November 03, 2012, 04:58:10 PM

Omid

I think I may have some thing for you to try..For the longest time I was having problems with the wood I was receiving... it was not seasoned properly and I was having a lot of problems with start ups ( and lots of smoke). I started to "kiln" dry my wood in the oven after every use.

So I would put the "green" wood in the oven about an hour or two after I was done making my pizzas (the oven was usually around 400 degrees measured at the floor) and then use that kiln dried wood for subsequent firings whenever I wanted. The wood becomes supremely dry and combustible.

I was having a party one weekend so I started a "primer fire" the evening before so that I could dry out some more wood for the party. I put the green wood in the oven ( after the coals were swept out) a little hotter than normal ( maybe 500). The next day I cracked the door open and the wood looked like big pieces of charcoal. The fire started very easy and very little smoke.

Perhaps you can heat the oven with your cactus burner, put the wood in without lighting it, shut the door and let it sit for several hours. Then light your fire. I think you will find that this process will produce the least amount of smoke

Good luck!

Scot

Dear Scot, I sincerely thank you for your advice. I do not believe my wood logs are the problem. I buy my logs from a reliable source here in San Diego. I am quite positive that the wood is well-seasoned and dry. Also, the way they are chopped under the blade of my ax is indicative of their good quality. We have been using oak logs from the same source at Pizzeria Bruno without any problems so far. Perhaps, as you kindly advised, it is a good idea to further condition my logs inside the oven the day before using them. I will try that.

By the way, I have never seen a picture of your wood-fired oven. Have you ever posted any pictures so I can take a look. Thank you and have a great week.

Regards,
Omid